SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The same way animal eaters view, e.g., eating dogs. Or human placentas
You would find a breadth of opinion.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
- Status
You would find a breadth of opinion.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
I'm not sure how to ponder the fact that this discussion migrated from leather seats to digestive surgery.
jeffro01
Active Member
I'll let readers review what I've said and consider the relevance of your responses to it. I don't care to derail the thread any further with dissection of the physiology/anthropology/evolution of human diet. If you (or anyone else) wishes to discuss it further, contact me privately.
whttiger25
Member
I will say, all you gotta do is check out www.realclearpolitics.com and you'll find plenty of ignorance far surpassing sweeping judgements about leather seats
This gal cares about the suffering of animals. I choose compassion over cruelty, and I daresay if more of the meat eaters here knew what was actually involved in factory farming, they'd perhaps consider participating in Meatless Mondays, at the very least. Dear Hubby isn't vegan, but is happy to eat vegan at home. I'd be happy for folks to simply try to at least reduce their consumption of meat, because it's better for their health, the planet, and especially the animals. The key word is "sentience" -- can the animals feel pain, suffering? Of course they can. With all the truly delicious meat alternatives out there, why not at least try to reduce the pain and suffering somewhat by at least cutting back on the consumption of meat? And dairy? Again, the old images we had in our head about happy farm animals frolicking out in the field just doesn't happen anymore... on factory farms.
That said, I still sit on leather in our Model S, but I wasn't thrilled about that when we got it. I AM thrilled that in our next Model S (if DH decides he'd rather get another S instead of the Model 3 he has reserved) we won't have leather seats. If it's the Model 3 we get, also happily without leather seats, I guess I'll try that wood (or wood-like) dashboard to make "cultured meat" sandwiches on our road trips.
(Thanks, EV-lutioin for that tip! ;-)
Seriously, I hope that we have a carbon fiber option. That flat wood strip looks ugly, even though I like the Model 3 interior pretty well otherwise, based on the photos I've seen. Especially the non-leather seats!
jeffro01
Active Member
I grew up farming, I come from a family of ranchers... I have probably forgotten more about farming, ranching, and the processing of animals for human consumption than your googling could provide you... You either have no idea how animals are processed or don't care in order to push your agenda. No, they don't suffer nor do they feel any pain as part of the commercial processing they go through. I'll save the details here for decorum reasons but it's not as if they are processed alive... This goes for not only factory farms as you call them, but the small mom and pop establishments as well. Are there bad apples in the bunch? Sure, but by and large the people that raise these animals for human consumption are no more interested in making them suffer/feel pain than you are...
Truly delicious meat alternatives? Right... Yeah, I'll stick with my dry-aged rib-eye thank you very much...
Jeff
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Then go stand in line. I promise, it won't hurt me a bit.
jeffro01
Active Member
What a despicable reply... You essentially just encouraged me to kill myself... That is a line I simply will not allow people to cross and TMC can ban my account for all I care.
You must be one hell of an awful person and to think someone already found that funny... Both of you should be kicked out of here for such a callous and irresponsible post and laugh of said post.
Just when you think this place couldn't get any more ridiculous... You post that garbage...
Jeff
Last edited:
Hi, Jeff! I sent you a PM, hoping to engage in a good discussion with you without further veering this thread off-track. In the meantime, here's a photo of some non-factory-farmed friends of mine.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
I'll agree with you for the most part on this statement as it applies to most domestic manufacturers. In the US, we have the luxury of fairly consistent regulation and rules, trade organizations that set standards, and access to proper equipment so that those standards and regulations are obeyed.
A larger concern is the 3rd-world nations where these things aren't the case. Beef and leather production in those nations devolves into things we wouldn't tolerate here. While the US doesn't import a huge amount of beef, we do import a great deal of leather, and much of that is produced without our higher standards and regulations. This is where the problem lies.
jeffro01
Active Member
jeffro01
Active Member
If the plastic is oil based, then what do we really gain by shifting from leather to oil based plastics?
Jeff
I'm not certain who you are replying to. You certainly changed the subject from what I said in my post.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
It's true, the glues and binders within the synthetic products do not meet vegan standards, which is why Tesla isn't advertising them as vegan.
However, as has been noted, the performance of the synthetics especially in terms of wear and stain resistance, exceeds leather by a large amount. If the other factors like the feel of the material and the comfort level are at least equivalent, and the cost is equal or less, then we have a superior product.
The mindset has always been that you had 3 choices: leather, vinyl, or cloth. Cloth had terrible wear and stain resistance, although it was inexpensive. Vinyls of many years ago were plastic-y, did not feel good to sit on especially in summer heat, and didn't have much more wear resistance than leather. Hence, leather became universally known as the premium product.
But this is really not the case anymore. The vinyl products appear to have surpassed leather in most categories. The only thing that's still a drawback is that "it's not leather".
In the 70s and early 80s, the best cassette tape desk you could buy was a Nakamichi. Everything else was inferior. Does anyone seek out a Nakamichi anymore? No, because digital audio surpassed analog tape performance and made the Nakamichi irrelevant.
jeffro01
Active Member
It's true, the glues and binders within the synthetic products do not meet vegan standards, which is why Tesla isn't advertising them as vegan.
However, as has been noted, the performance of the synthetics especially in terms of wear and stain resistance, exceeds leather by a large amount. If the other factors like the feel of the material and the comfort level are at least equivalent, and the cost is equal or less, then we have a superior product.
The mindset has always been that you had 3 choices: leather, vinyl, or cloth. Cloth had terrible wear and stain resistance, although it was inexpensive. Vinyls of many years ago were plastic-y, did not feel good to sit on especially in summer heat, and didn't have much more wear resistance than leather. Hence, leather became universally known as the premium product.
But this is really not the case anymore. The vinyl products appear to have surpassed leather in most categories. The only thing that's still a drawback is that "it's not leather".
In the 70s and early 80s, the best cassette tape desk you could buy was a Nakamichi. Everything else was inferior. Does anyone seek out a Nakamichi anymore? No, because digital audio surpassed analog tape performance and made the Nakamichi irrelevant.
Thank you for this post. Very informative.
Jeff
sillydriver
Member
Perhaps an odd question, but has anyone with experience with both Teslas with leather and Teslas with ultrawhite noticed a difference in their new car smell? I do like the smell of new leather upholstery, although I admit my P85D didn't have it much compared with other nice cars (the best I've experienced is a Bentley)...
Last edited:
sillydriver
Member
... separately, It seems odd that Tesla is reducing option configurations (lumping multiple options into one package) at the same time that they reduce material choices (synthetic seats only, but also by eliminating silver color turbine wheels, and reducing trim materials to one wood plus carbon, which they have already done) at the same time that they have (arguably) reduced interior beauty by eliminating the alcantara on the dash. Yet here they are about to introduce a low-priced, lower margin model, where the two high priced models now, for the first time, need to be differentiated from that new low end model. And that low-end model also will have a lot of ramp-up time and risk, so the company can't make the next few quarters without selling the high-end models.
My conclusion is that management has either gone completely nuts or there is a significant MS and MX upgrade with new materials, finishes and choices just around the corner, to overlay what we see in the design center today, which will be the new low end. I think that if this prediction is not true, then the company's financial results will suffer.
I ran this theory by my wife. Her objection was "why would they downgrade the car just before upgrading it?" All I can came up with is that they have been running down inventories of old components, which have now been depleted prior to the M3 announcement, which is the earliest date to reveal an MS and MX upgrade.
I guess the other possibility is that they will introduce a huge upgrade in HW2 autopilot functionality at the M3 reveal, which will render the MS a compelling buy despite fewer choices and diminished materials.
My conclusion is that management has either gone completely nuts or there is a significant MS and MX upgrade with new materials, finishes and choices just around the corner, to overlay what we see in the design center today, which will be the new low end. I think that if this prediction is not true, then the company's financial results will suffer.
I ran this theory by my wife. Her objection was "why would they downgrade the car just before upgrading it?" All I can came up with is that they have been running down inventories of old components, which have now been depleted prior to the M3 announcement, which is the earliest date to reveal an MS and MX upgrade.
I guess the other possibility is that they will introduce a huge upgrade in HW2 autopilot functionality at the M3 reveal, which will render the MS a compelling buy despite fewer choices and diminished materials.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
