Pleather for all...

[Canuck]

That being said, I have been in plenty like them and fail to see what the issue here is... Of course I'm kidding, I see what you're issue there is... I just don't lose sleep over it.

Thanks for saying that. I really appreciate it and I am being sincere when I say that.

I never really lost sleep over it too by looking at the pictures although it did disturb me. But looking at the actual pigs in the eyes, row after row of them, for as long as you can see, and no windows at all, and caged to the point of not being able to move, although they do lie down...

...and coming home and looking at my dog in the eyes (I have a rescue dog that was abused) I believe I can understand at least somewhat the suffering of those pigs, which is their entire life. I've watched my own dog's eyes completely change from when we first got him. He still has whining nightmares sometimes, and when we wake him because of his loud whining, and he realizes he is safe, the look in his eyes change. They say the eyes are the window to the soul. As an atheist, I would change that to the gateway of our psychological well being. These pigs are tortured and suffer and studies tell us that psychological pain is much worse than physical pain. Physical pain can heal by itself, rarely does psychological pain.

For the record. I will no longer derail this thread based on my side conversations with other members regarding the ethics or personal emotions around real leather products. This is my last post on that but just wanted to be clear I don't intend on continuing to drag this down.

Fair enough. I would say we didn't derail it, and our discussion fits right in, but point taken and I'm likely done too.

 

[gabeincal]

psychological pain is much worse than physical pain

One could think that this pain is transferred with the 'product' also...

 

[ahkahn]

Not at all, the vinyl actually looked much worse. The texture had all worn off it and it generally looked terrible. The leather still looks great. I'm referring the to the seat bottom here.

Sounds to me like there was something else that damaged the vinyl and removed the topcoat. Wrong cleaner or conditioner used at some point most likely.

Perhaps the highest quality leather could be available soon by some 3rd party retailers/installers.

One wonders what will happen to Tesla's leather accessory line: Tesla — Tesla Design Collection

If you guys like white leather (or any color, for that matter), I'll sell it to you all day long and give you the name of a couple of auto trimmers in your area to solicit some quotes. You're probably looking around $350-450/hide, and I'd guess a Tesla would require (for 100% leather) about 3-4 hides. 3-5 day lead time for shipment of hides. PM me if you're interested. Above that, you'd probably be looking around $3000-5000 for the entire interior to be redone to your liking.

 

[CHG-ON]

My real issue with this is that I do not want to breathe the off gassing of all those petro chems. Yes, leather has some too. But they seem to dissipate much faster. And you know what? All those animals are being sacrificed to be eaten. This is just the byproduct. Might as well use it.

Sorry to sound so cold. I actually am quite green. But until we have alternatives that will not kill us through chemical off gassing, I really don't have a solution aside from organic cotton, which isn't durable enough.

And wool is not an option for many of us. Flax: nope. Hemp: a viable option.

 

[DarkMatter]

Auto leather is always plastic coated as well so it's not much of a relief there.

 

[Canuck]

And you know what? All those animals are being sacrificed to be eaten. This is just the byproduct. Might as well use it.

The selling of skins is profitable for farmers -- so profitable they won't tell us how much they make from it in order to keep people believing what you believe. So arguably it's not a "by-product" but a "co-product" -- and buying leather is the same as buying a steak.

The ethical wardrobe: Is it OK to wear leather?

But until we have alternatives that will not kill us through chemical off gassing

I've never heard of anyone dying from the fake leather in their vehicles off gassing but I'd be interested if you can provide me with a link of one.

 

[wbhokie]

I would love to get one of the leather fob sources in Ultra White. Given that the item list in the design collection has been getting smaller and smaller I bet they are just going until they are sold out.

I'd actually like the option to get the steering wheel in the same material vs the typical black. It would really stand out!

 

[adiggs]

....

I've enjoyed reading all of your posts in this thread @ahkahn. I'm curious if you have any information about testing for "new car smell" and/or chemical off gassing associated with the different interior materials we find in cars. I am particularly interested in learning if there are any interior materials developed with specific emphasis and focus on minimizing the chemical off gassing (and what off gassing there is, happens quickly and thoroughly).

Our own experience is that we have wicked chemical sensitivities. We've found that our Roadster, with leather interior, had fully off gassed and was usable for both of us at only a couple of years of age. So we intentionally chose a leather interior for the Model X we're hoping to pick up next week.

With the current Model X interiors, our experience was that they had a strong new car smell, but we could manage it and we think off gas it over the next few months to a year (leather that is).

The one ultrawhite Model X - the composition of it's new car smell was enough different that we couldn't sit in it for any length of time, and after initial exposure, didn't want to approach the car even with doors and windows closed. Then again, every person with chemical sensitivities is different (we know that), and a nasty chemical that off gasses fast and thoroughly is far preferable to something that will steadily off gas a little bit for decades.


I appreciate any help, pointers, or links you can provide. Heck - if there's a material that's optimized to be chemicallyl neutral / inert, if I knew what it was, I'd investigate that and look at changing over the interior.

 

[John Beans]

My mind was changed when I bought a new belt a couple of years ago. Every time I buy a new belt, I try to convince myself that I need to buy a higher quality belt that will last longer, because after a while they always crack and scuff. There's a company called Bullhide belts that makes very sturdy leather belts. On a whim, I tried one of their SuperBIO plastic belts. Glad I did. Looks like a black leather belt, but it's some sort of polymer with a core of polyester, and it still looks identical to the day I bought it.

It's not until you escape the limitations of leather that you realize what you put up with. For a long time in our history, it was true that certain natural materials (chief among them leather and natural rubber) could not be matched by man-made materials. No more!

That Tesla is the kind of company that embraces "better" when it comes along says a lot. First principles: what makes a great seat material? Okay, let's use THAT.

"But people expect that real leather is better!"

If you want to be the best, you sometimes have to defy conventional thinking.

 

[vcor]

Looking at the retail price of Top Grain Aniline leather that has a protective top coat, it's $18/foot retail, or $162/yard. My guess is far more leather is needed as the leather is not in a shape where all of it can be used.

 

[GOVA]

I grew up farming, I come from a family of ranchers... I have probably forgotten more about farming, ranching, and the processing of animals for human consumption than your googling could provide you... You either have no idea how animals are processed or don't care in order to push your agenda. No, they don't suffer nor do they feel any pain as part of the commercial processing they go through. I'll save the details here for decorum reasons but it's not as if they are processed alive... This goes for not only factory farms as you call them, but the small mom and pop establishments as well. Are there bad apples in the bunch? Sure, but by and large the people that raise these animals for human consumption are no more interested in making them suffer/feel pain than you are...

Truly delicious meat alternatives? Right... Yeah, I'll stick with my dry-aged rib-eye thank you very much...

Jeff

Jeff - if above is so true, why do 80% of all antibiotics produced is fed to livestock? It is not only pain, but the whole range of conditions of how those animals make to the killing floor.

Has anyone mentioned water usage for meat, corn and leather production to get those seats and a steak?

 

[Impala1ss]

For some reason "Naugahyde" came to mind. My parents had a sofa made of that stuff.

I always wondered "what the hell is a nauga?"

I'm amazed that no one cares about how many Naugas have to give their lives so that you can have Naugahyde seat covers. It takes many more Naugas than it does cows to put seats in your car.

 

[*KT*]

Interesting question re the off gassing with the white seats. I hadn't really thought about it, my X (delivered in Jan southern hemisphere) had a new car smell that was a lot milder than i have previously experienced. Now i think back, i didnt get any interior windscreen 'mist' after it sat in the hot sun all day in summer.
On reflection, this was a real issue with the previous car, an Audi with leather seats not sure what the dash was made of. I now remember months of having to wipe the chemical fog off the interior windscreen before i drove. I haven't had to do that once with the Tesla X with white and alcantara.
Its a single data point, not proof of anything to scientific principles standard. But now i've been prompted to think about it, im going to say that the off gassing is definately improved

FYI i didn't know what to use to clean it, but figured soap and water would do no harm. Been working a treat. Relieved to read i made a good decision to avoid armour all and other sprays.

 

[Cascadian]

Jeff - if above is so true, why do 80% of all antibiotics produced is fed to livestock? It is not only pain, but the whole range of conditions of how those animals make to the killing floor.

Has anyone mentioned water usage for meat, corn and leather production to get those seats and a steak?

For those who have Netflix, I notice that they now have available "What the Health" -- and I highly recommend it to everyone who's following the "side discussion" here.

What the Health | Netflix

 

[AnxietyRanger]

what makes a great seat material? Okay, let's use THAT.

No matter the leather debate, Tesla does not have the best seat materials and not even great ones. They are far behind the curve on seats.

 

[alehbaba]

the white seats are the best looking seats avail...

 

[ahkahn]

I've enjoyed reading all of your posts in this thread @ahkahn. I'm curious if you have any information about testing for "new car smell" and/or chemical off gassing associated with the different interior materials we find in cars. I am particularly interested in learning if there are any interior materials developed with specific emphasis and focus on minimizing the chemical off gassing (and what off gassing there is, happens quickly and thoroughly).

Our own experience is that we have wicked chemical sensitivities. We've found that our Roadster, with leather interior, had fully off gassed and was usable for both of us at only a couple of years of age. So we intentionally chose a leather interior for the Model X we're hoping to pick up next week.

With the current Model X interiors, our experience was that they had a strong new car smell, but we could manage it and we think off gas it over the next few months to a year (leather that is).

The one ultrawhite Model X - the composition of it's new car smell was enough different that we couldn't sit in it for any length of time, and after initial exposure, didn't want to approach the car even with doors and windows closed. Then again, every person with chemical sensitivities is different (we know that), and a nasty chemical that off gasses fast and thoroughly is far preferable to something that will steadily off gas a little bit for decades.


I appreciate any help, pointers, or links you can provide. Heck - if there's a material that's optimized to be chemicallyl neutral / inert, if I knew what it was, I'd investigate that and look at changing over the interior.

Great topic twist. So, there are a few points on this that I can touch on. I'll disclaimer this with the fact that I'm not a chemical engineer, nor do I really work with them at the vinyl manufacturers or leather tanneries that I work with, but I'll talk about the parts I'm familiar with.

First off, the other main purpose of the topcoats used on leather and vinyl (in addition to abrasion protection) is protection against outgassing. The topcoat is possible to remove using a harsh cleaner, so when this happens, the plasticizers (in vinyl) will migrate out, as well as the other treatments added. The role of the plasticizers in a PVC vinyl are to soften the material. Once those come out of the material, the material will eventually become brittle and crack. Where do the plasticizers go? Onto the windshield (foggy film), etc. So, by effectively removing the topcoat (through using a harsh cleaner or conditioner) you will remove the topcoat and accelerate the outgassing.

Secondly, the new car smell isn't strictly because of the outgassing. Most of the "smell" is due to the adhesives, lubricants (silicones), and other chemicals used in the manufacturing of the components. I'd venture to say that the actual seating material is only a minor contributor to the smell, as the headliner material, adhesive, carpeting, carpet adhesive, foam, and other components are all contributing factors. Changing the material won't have much effect.

A new trend that is emerging in the vinyl manufacturing world is the BPA free, Phalate free, and flame treatment free vinyls. This has not yet come over to the automotive world, yet, but reducing chemicals used has become "a thing". It's right now growing in the commercial markets (restaurants, hotels, etc), and will probably hit the automotive market in the next few years.

The polyurethanes are much more forgiving when it comes to the outgassing and chemicals. They're made completely differently, so, to the best of my knowledge, outgassing is not really an issue with these materials (the Ultra white interior). But, keep in mind, there is plenty of other PVC in the car... door panels, dash, etc.

I'm amazed that no one cares about how many Naugas have to give their lives so that you can have Naugahyde seat covers. It takes many more Naugas than it does cows to put seats in your car.

They do it willingly, and they don't die. Just shed their skin and start over.

No matter the leather debate, Tesla does not have the best seat materials and not even great ones. They are far behind the curve on seats.

I'm in the fabric business. Please educate me on what, if you were in charge, would use as "the best seat materials".

 

[DarkMatter]

Secondly, the new car smell isn't strictly because of the outgassing. Most of the "smell" is due to the adhesives, lubricants (silicones), and other chemicals used in the manufacturing of the components. I'd venture to say that the actual seating material is only a minor contributor to the smell, as the headliner material, adhesive, carpeting, carpet adhesive, foam, and other components are all contributing factors. Changing the material won't have much effect.

You can say that again. Ever hear of the 'crayon smell' in VWs? Mid 2000s Volkswagens would smell like being in a box of crayons once they were out in the sun for a little while. It would happen even years after production.

 

[Attard.M]

Very informative and comforting to know that the supplier supplies into the marine industry. Also good to know that it's not a low cost choice.

One thing that remains unclear is the longevity of the synthetic fabric. Much is made of wear and tear characteristics , however the real issue with these types of plastic fabrics is UV degradation. They can go hard over time and will eventually split with UV exposure. Leather can also split over time but can be refurbished and maintained.

Does anyone have an answer?

 

[ahkahn]

Very informative and comforting to know that the supplier supplies into the marine industry. Also good to know that it's not a low cost choice.

One thing that remains unclear is the longevity of the synthetic fabric. Much is made of wear and tear characteristics , however the real issue with these types of plastic fabrics is UV degradation. They can go hard over time and will eventually split with UV exposure. Leather can also split over time but can be refurbished and maintained.

Does anyone have an answer?

All of the materials used inside the vehicle are automotive UV treated, and the synthetics will perform better than, say, a natural fabric would. Regardless, the UV problem had been solved many years ago. In addition to the fabrics having UV treatment, the windows are all UV treated. I haven't see an interior material fade since the early 90's......

If you want a technical answer, the materials will all typically pass a minimum of 300 hours on the QUV UV test. Marine will typically pass 500 hours QUV. There is a possibility that the materials used inside of our cars will pass 500 hours, but unless you speak with the designers and find out exactly what they're using, the world will never know.....