PMAC vs induction motor for model 3

[SuisseDriver]

Given the exponential nature of resistance at higher speeds, and the range decreases that graph demonstrates, I'd suggest between 100-125 at 100 is more likely.

Again this is before any other factors. Do that trip in 20 degree weather, and you might have a 75 mile range car.

So you can continue to be of the opinion we don't need larger battery capacities in these scenarios however the evidence you are using to refute that doesn't support your arguments very well IMO.

I have a S75D and my father a S100D. The S100D has more or less exactly the same range as the Model III LR so we can compare them.

I have some experience on german Autobahn where I made a Lauterbourg (French border close To Kalrsruhe) to Pratteln SC which is a 200km trip. As was said, German Autobahn are not unlimited everywhere. So you still hit some 120km/h zone for bridge / exit. On the unlimited portion, I was between 180km/h and 227km/h (more or less the maximum speed I reached based on Waze on my smartphone) and I could easily made the 200km with less than 90% of the S75D battery.

Another way to look at it is that the calculation is showing a physical consumption need of 75kW at 200km/h. If we consider 83% for the total Model S powertrain efficiency, it means a need of 90kW.
In reality, this is what I experiences with the powermeter a little bit below 100kW so sustain this 200km/h speed.
It would mean that I could do 200km with 100kWh on the S100D. This means that you could do the same with the Model III LR (which has a 75kWh battery but has 89% efficiency and needs less power because has a better SCx).

In all practical purpose, even in Germany, because you do NOT have 200km straight, unlimited, without traffic, without working zone, without limited portion, a Model III LR or S100D can easily do 300km at a sustain high speed (>180-200km/h).

My experience on having driven both the S75D ~ Model III normal and S100D ~ Model III LR is that the S75D is very practical but requires a little bit of planning and has more constraints. The S100d (or Modell III LR) has just a range which is a no issue for anyone but the very most niche case. The range in normal situation is 450-500km and there is no situation where it can be a constraint as you would anyway stop at some point which such a range.

 

[scaesare]

I have a S75D and my father a S100D. The S100D has more or less exactly the same range as the Model III LR so we can compare them.

I have some experience on german Autobahn where I made a Lauterbourg (French border close To Kalrsruhe) to Pratteln SC which is a 200km trip. As was said, German Autobahn are not unlimited everywhere. So you still hit some 120km/h zone for bridge / exit. On the unlimited portion, I was between 180km/h and 227km/h (more or less the maximum speed I reached based on Waze on my smartphone) and I could easily made the 200km with less than 90% of the S75D battery.

Another way to look at it is that the calculation is showing a physical consumption need of 75kW at 200km/h. If we consider 83% for the total Model S powertrain efficiency, it means a need of 90kW.
In reality, this is what I experiences with the powermeter a little bit below 100kW so sustain this 200km/h speed.
It would mean that I could do 200km with 100kWh on the S100D. This means that you could do the same with the Model III LR (which has a 75kWh battery but has 89% efficiency and needs less power because has a better SCx).

In all practical purpose, even in Germany, because you do NOT have 200km straight, unlimited, without traffic, without working zone, without limited portion, a Model III LR or S100D can easily do 300km at a sustain high speed (>180-200km/h).

My experience on having driven both the S75D ~ Model III normal and S100D ~ Model III LR is that the S75D is very practical but requires a little bit of planning and has more constraints. The S100d (or Modell III LR) has just a range which is a no issue for anyone but the very most niche case. The range in normal situation is 450-500km and there is no situation where it can be a constraint as you would anyway stop at some point which such a range.

The D cars are certainly more efficient than the RWD only cars... especially at higher speeds with the taller gearing in the front motor. So high speed driving in a 75D cutting the range in half or so seems in the ballpark.

 

[jbcarioca]

Tesla has officially stated identical range for LR, LRAWD, and P. We already know from the EPA document submitted (documented here and by numerous other sources) that the LR calculated range was 334 miles, IIRC, and Tesla asked to report 310 miles. Offhand I'll wager the LRAWD and P ranges cannot be expected to be the identical range as the LR. It seems quite likely that the actual ranges would be in order: AWD LR, RWD LR, P. They might well choose to report them all at 310 miles. Of course i am guessing mostly because that relative ranking was true for the S85s. I have no clue what the actual numbers might be because Model 3 has different components and more advanced technology.

 

[McRat]

My crystal ball says that the addition of a front induction motor will decrease both the true city and highway range on the Model 3.

We will see. The PM motor is more efficient, so the induction motor is added weight.

 

[JRP3]

The PM motor is more efficient, so the induction motor is added weight.

Depends.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors

 

[McRat]

Depends.

Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors

That was written before commercial EV development ramped up. Technology improved, especially at Tesla where they started out at 89 mpge RWD and improved it to 98 mpge. PM development also improved, which is probably why Tesla used a PM in the Model 3.

What we know as it pertains to Tesla:

They opted for a powerful PM rear motor in the Model 3. It has far better mi/kWh in both city and highway driving. Some is weight.
Single rear induction motor Teslas are not efficient. 16% drop in weight (4470 vs 3840) nets 40% increase in city mileage for the PM Model 3, where aero doesn't kick in. Even allowing for the heavier AWD Model S with it's slight city gains, shows the PM system developed by Tesla is much more stingy than their induction motors.

Compare Side-by-Side

The variation could be explained by regen differences alone between the Model S RWD and AWD.

 

[Rashomon]

That was written before commercial EV development ramped up. Technology improved, especially at Tesla where they started out at 89 mpge RWD and improved it to 98 mpge. PM development also improved, which is probably why Tesla used a PM in the Model 3.

What we know as it pertains to Tesla:

They opted for a powerful PM rear motor in the Model 3. It has far better mi/kWh in both city and highway driving. Some is weight.
Single rear induction motor Teslas are not efficient. 16% drop in weight (4470 vs 3840) nets 40% increase in city mileage for the PM Model 3, where aero doesn't kick in. Even allowing for the heavier AWD Model S with it's slight city gains, shows the PM system developed by Tesla is much more stingy than their induction motors.

Compare Side-by-Side

The variation could be explained by regen differences alone between the Model S RWD and AWD.

We now know that at least the performance version of the M3 is using a silicon carbide inverter; that's about a 2 percent efficiency improvement in and of itself.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We now know that at least the performance version of the M3 is using a silicon carbide inverter; that's about a 2 percent efficiency improvement in and of itself.

The 3LR most likely also has a silicon carbide inverter.

Won't the AWD have stronger regen? That might improve the city efficiency a bit.
Unless they made a new smaller rear motor for the AWD it seems likely the P and AWD will have identical drivetrains except for the P having the highest bin units.

 

[Brando]

Model 3 motor - anyone found a more detailed (technical) article? I guess a "trade secret" for now.

Tesla Model 3 Motor — Everything I've Been Able To Learn About It (Welcome To The Machine) | CleanTechnica
Tesla's Chief Motor Engineer Discusses Model 3 Motor
Tesla motor designer explains Model 3’s transition to permanent magnet motor