POLL: Changes in feeling toward Tesla

[jfrieden]

Look, I don't mind some price changes of $500, $1k or even $2k here or there. I actually think the changes to AP are logical, and it's exactly what I would've done (before the launch). With that said, I bought my Model 3 and received it in September (reserved in March '16). Not even 6 mos later, the same configuration (sans the summon feature) is $8k less than when I bought mine. That's 15% of the value of my car. I know I agreed to the price, and I do love the car, but I feel this company isn't valuing it's customers or handling these changes properly. I'm in business and if I did the same to my customers, I would expect some backlash. I also feel the service department leaves a LOT to be desired. My wife wanted to preorder a Model Y, and I don't see how I could do that after seeing how this whole rollout has gone and early adopters getting the short end of the stick. Next to my house, this is the most expensive thing I've ever bought (by a long shot). I did my research, saved up, and made some sacrifices on the configuration I wanted based on pricing and value. I think it's reasonable to feel upset when the same product months later is being offered to someone for significantly less.

 

[Ezri10]

All of this is inline with my understanding of what you're saying.

You are uncomfortable with the Silicon Valley style that Tesla has successfully translated to automobile design, manufacturing, and sales. Frantic and flexible and quick-loop iterative. It can be unsettling if you're got in mind the plodding old school, if that's what you expect and are using as the measuring stick for "done right". But as we've seen over the last two decades in software and then computer hardware, if this approach is executed successfully it absolutely slaughters the competition. It overwhelms with speed of improvement and product actually shipping, which more than compensates for any clunkiness along the way.

Scoreboard so far says Tesla is proving it translates to automobiles, too. Your uncomfortableness with it notwithstanding.

Thank you

 

[dww12]

Yesterday a close friend called all excited about the fact that he could purchase a M3 for such low price. I fully respect Tesla's prerogative to price their products as they wish. But, I must confess that my view of the company, as an owner, investor, and an academic economist has tanked. The reality is that, at least for me, one of the reason I purchased my car was the expectation that we were in part supporting the mission, and that this was a different type of car company. The decision to drastically lower the price, and most disturbing, lure people into buying EAP with the explicit promise that it would be more expense in the future, has left me very unhappy. As an investor, it strikes me (any obviously many others) as a desperate act. And as an economist who spends much of my time estimating price elasticities, it just seems like a bad business decision. If nothing else, it is very difficult if not impossible to accurately estimate the price responsiveness to such drastic price cuts. In any event, I strongly cautioned my friend not the purchase a Tesla, and as I started to list all the downsides, especially for those of us with only one car and who live in rugged winter climates, it was clear after my conversation that Tesla lost a sale. I don't say this out of a sense of joy, but sadness that the future for the company, and for my owners experience, is not a bright one.

You realize Elon just put us back in space, he announced he improved the car you already own (more range, more power) and most likely will work with v3 supercharger to let you charge 2x as fast. That is in 1 week. You didn’t even pay for FSD, so you are getting something offered for less than you thought it would be and your friend can afford to be in the club. Elon is single handedly removing ICE and you just peed on it because the price dropped too fast. I would like cleaner air as fast as possible please. Would you prefer to pay the $5000 for FSD insted of $2000?

 

[dww12]

Look, I don't mind some price changes of $500, $1k or even $2k here or there. I actually think the changes to AP are logical, and it's exactly what I would've done (before the launch). With that said, I bought my Model 3 and received it in September (reserved in March '16). Not even 6 mos later, the same configuration (sans the summon feature) is $8k less than when I bought mine. That's 15% of the value of my car. I know I agreed to the price, and I do love the car, but I feel this company isn't valuing it's customers or handling these changes properly. I'm in business and if I did the same to my customers, I would expect some backlash. I also feel the service department leaves a LOT to be desired. My wife wanted to preorder a Model Y, and I don't see how I could do that after seeing how this whole rollout has gone and early adopters getting the short end of the stick. Next to my house, this is the most expensive thing I've ever bought (by a long shot). I did my research, saved up, and made some sacrifices on the configuration I wanted based on pricing and value. I think it's reasonable to feel upset when the same product months later is being offered to someone for significantly less.

Well one of these days when you are out walking or biking on the sidewalk or the street there will be a quiet Tesla next to you instead of an out of tune ICE car killing you with exhaust fumes, and killing your neighbors kid because he is somewhere in the middle east protecting oil interests to fuel that car. That is why the price can’t fall fast enough.

 

[dww12]

EAP/FS, that stuff is all peanuts. Tesla just dropped the price of the S/X over $15K ??? This changed my view of the company, its health, and it will hurt the Tesla brand longterm with luxury car buyers.

Nonetheless, I love my car and want Tesla to survive and thrive. Called my brother over the weekend and told him after the recent price drops, now is the time for his family to get a Tesla. Spent a lot time with him explaining configurations, how to get inventory cars etc, and he is getting his wife on board and ready to order.

The only thing worse that could happen (than what Tesla has done recently) is if the company does not survive. The large, overnight prices cuts on the S/X tell me they have a lot of old inventory they need to clear out. Hopefully, they are making room for new updated S and X.

The Y introduction should create a lot of positive attention. The Y design is going to be great and having and affordable smaller SUV should save the company long term. In the end, someone will buy Tesla even if it is looking at bankruptcy.

Dude, you are really buying the FUD. The price drop can get your brother a X, that’s great! Look at the model 3 tracker, they are making more than ever. They are just adjusting the price to sell as many as they can and open Tesla to more people.

 

[jfrieden]

Well one of these days when you are out walking or biking on the sidewalk or the street there will be a quiet Tesla next to you instead of an out of tune ICE car killing you with exhaust fumes, and killing your neighbors kid because he is somewhere in the middle east protecting oil interests to fuel that car. That is why the price can’t fall fast enough.

Or..... We could just buy a BMW i3,i4, the new Audis, the new Mercedes, the new Jag, Polestar, the Nissan Leaf, the Kia or Hyundai options, etc. The alternative isn't what you described, it's simply a competitor. Or, if you read what I wrote, it could be simply to let Tesla get settled on pricing and work out the kinks next time. You say something the slightest bit negative about the reality in which Tesla handled thousands of customer's poorly and suddenly we're "killing our neighbors kid". Take a step back, breathe, think, then respond. Not the opposite.

 

[afadeev]

Now that Tesla is selling to the masses.... Most buy the car for the car.... No the mission...

The mission of a public company is to maximize shareholder value == make money.
Perhaps, you were confusing it with some kind of a holy quest?

I fully respect Tesla's prerogative to price their products as they wish. But, I must confess that my view of the company, as an owner, investor, and an academic economist has tanked. The reality is that, at least for me, one of the reason I purchased my car was the expectation that we were in part supporting the mission, and that this was a different type of car company.

I trust you must have some basic appreciation for the world of finance, not just economics, right?

The TM3 sales have hit an inflection point in December, and have been declining for the last two months.
Something had to be done to rejuvenate demand, and move the inventory!
Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard

I strongly cautioned my friend not the purchase a Tesla, and as I started to list all the downsides, especially for those of us with only one car and who live in rugged winter climates, it was clear after my conversation that Tesla lost a sale. I don't say this out of a sense of joy, but sadness that the future for the company, and for my owners experience, is not a bright one.

So, you trashed Tesla, and all EVs, just out of spite of Tesla dropping prices to stimulate sagging demand?
Really?

a

 

[dww12]

Or..... We could just buy a BMW i3,i4, the new Audis, the new Mercedes, the new Jag, Polestar, the Nissan Leaf, the Kia or Hyundai options, etc. The alternative isn't what you described, it's simply a competitor. Or, if you read what I wrote, it could be simply to let Tesla get settled on pricing and work out the kinks next time. You say something the slightest bit negative about the reality in which Tesla handled thousands of customer's poorly and suddenly we're "killing our neighbors kid". Take a step back, breathe, think, then respond. Not the opposite.

All of those companies are just biding their time. The don’t have a charging network. The dealers won’t make money on service for EVs so they have no incentive to sell them. And what happens in 3 years when EA makes no money and pulls the plug? It’s really Tesla or nothing. You are really questioning Tesla for DROPPING their price to customers and want to run to the arms of those with no network and who will charge you more the first chance they get?

 

[jfrieden]

All of those companies are just biding their time. The don’t have a charging network. The dealers won’t make money on service for EVs so they have no incentive to sell them. And what happens in 3 years when EA makes no money and pulls the plug? It’s really Tesla or nothing. You are really questioning Tesla for DROPPING their price to customers and want to run to the arms of those with no network and who will charge you more the first chance they get?

For the sake of ending this back and forth and nothing else..... Yes. That's exactly what I want to do. Good night.

 

[ohmman]

mod note: moved this out of Model 3, as it's a general Tesla thread.

 

[GeoX750]

All of this is inline with my understanding of what you're saying.

You are uncomfortable with the Silicon Valley style that Tesla has successfully translated to automobile design, manufacturing, and sales. Frantic and flexible and quick-loop iterative. It can be unsettling if you're got in mind the plodding old school, if that's what you expect and are using as the measuring stick for "done right". But as we've seen over the last two decades in software and then computer hardware, if this approach is executed successfully it absolutely slaughters the competition. It overwhelms with speed of improvement and product actually shipping, which more than compensates for any clunkiness along the way.

Scoreboard so far says Tesla is proving it translates to automobiles, too. Your uncomfortableness with it notwithstanding.

I hope Tesla is successful and changes the auto industry. Would be great to have more affordable EV options for people, I could get comfortable with that.

But I think you are jumping to the conclusion of "success" and looking at the scoreboard from last year's championship game. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

The repeated and now price reductions for S/X, serial layoffs, store closings and what may be sagging demand are just taking place in 2019. The current 2019 scoreboard says the game may being lost.

Price disruption is great, but Tesla is still making what is first an expensive car whose cost must be spread out over many years for most consumers. Most people by cars based on monthly payment and residual values. The loan/lease game will need time to adjust to Tesla's disruption to reach most buyers.

 

[jerry33]

Price disruption is great, but Tesla is still making what is first an expensive car whose cost must be spread out over many years for most consumers. Most people by cars based on monthly payment and residual values. The loan/lease game will need time to adjust to Tesla's disruption to reach most buyers.

They only need to reach as many buyers as they can produce cars. This doesn't appear to be a problem. It will be a while before they can produce enough cars to reach "most buyers".

 

[StellarRat]

All of this is inline with my understanding of what you're saying.

You are uncomfortable with the Silicon Valley style that Tesla has successfully translated to automobile design, manufacturing, and sales. Frantic and flexible and quick-loop iterative.

What makes me uncomfortable isn't the speed of change, but the fact that a car isn't just some PC or phone or a piece of software. I am a little nervous about that. When your car isn't working right or is completely down that's way different than your phone and even potentially deadly. Now, Tesla hasn't done anything really stupid or dangerous as far as I know, but I hope in the speed to change/improve/grow they never lose sight of safety side of this business. So far, I trust them, with my life even, but I hope they never give anyone reason to think otherwise. That would be the end of Tesla.

 

[SammichLover]

But I think you are jumping to the conclusion of "success" and looking at the scoreboard from last year's championship game. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

Who said "guarantee"? However it is very strong evidence and entirely reasonable to expect it to continue. Certainly without any being able to lay out any rational theory for expectation otherwise. Bringing us to this sad sack of road apples:

The repeated and now price reductions for S/X, serial layoffs, store closings and what may be sagging demand are just taking place in 2019. The current 2019 scoreboard says the game may being lost.

1) "Serial layoffs" that are much smaller than preceding hiring. Tesla is continuing to grow. Fact.
2) They've continued to increase cost structure efficiency by re-organization to reduce overhead, thus.....
2.5) "Oh know, they are able to price their product more affordably, CLEARLY THEY ARE DOOMED!"
3) Scoreboard, as in sales that in spite of them having large amounts of product hung up in the International pipeline they're still blowing all the other plug-in numbers out of the water in US sales?

Price disruption is great, but Tesla is still making what is first an expensive car whose cost must be spread out over many years for most consumers. Most people by cars based on monthly payment and residual values. The loan/lease game will need time to adjust to Tesla's disruption to reach most buyers.

 

[BBone]

I know a lot of people who own Teslas are peeved at the price drops. Tesla made some goodwill with the EAP/FSD discounting for (some/most) people. Keep in mind that this is just Tesla moving at "rocket" speed (Elon allusion intended). If this was Apple or Microsoft and they said they would release the same generation or next generation for 25% less wouldn't a purchaser be happier? And wouldn't that also imply the refresh cycles for the products are getting shorter (i.e. faster aka rocket speed) and a good thing? I don't like paying more than the next guy. But I got a fair deal on my P100D in December 2018 and I am good with that. The price drops give me the benefit on my next purchase to get a new next gen Tesla for even cheaper I would think. It's all good and this community IMHO should remember why we picked a Tesla in the first place.

 

[more863-also]

Well one of these days when you are out walking or biking on the sidewalk or the street there will be a quiet Tesla next to you instead of an out of tune ICE car killing you with exhaust fumes, and killing your neighbors kid because he is somewhere in the middle east protecting oil interests to fuel that car. That is why the price can’t fall fast enough.

As a 2011 Leafowner that bought new I just have to LOL at this attitude. I was gas free years before most Tesla owners.

 

[BBone]

What makes me uncomfortable isn't the speed of change, but the fact that a car isn't just some PC or phone or a piece of software. I am a little nervous about that. When your car isn't working right or is completely down that's way different than your phone and even potentially deadly. Now, Tesla hasn't done anything really stupid or dangerous as far as I know, but I hope in the speed to change/improve/grow they never lose sight of safety side of this business. So far, I trust them, with my life even, but I hope they never give anyone reason to think otherwise. That would be the end of Tesla.

Some people claim Tesla over-engineers their cars. And apparently they claim that's not a good thing /s I'd rather be in an over-engineered car than one under-engineered. I'm also not a fan of other manufacturers (and I've owned vehicles from those others) that cut costs on parts to make more $ despite safety concerns.

 

[neroden]

My major negative change of opinion on Tesla came from their creating many, many bugs in USB music and refusing to fix any of them. Since then, my opinion hasn't changed much.

 

[neroden]

All of this is inline with my understanding of what you're saying.

You are uncomfortable with the Silicon Valley style that Tesla has successfully translated to automobile design, manufacturing, and sales. Frantic and flexible and quick-loop iterative. It can be unsettling if you're got in mind the plodding old school, if that's what you expect and are using as the measuring stick for "done right". But as we've seen over the last two decades in software and then computer hardware, if this approach is executed successfully it absolutely slaughters the competition. It overwhelms with speed of improvement and product actually shipping, which more than compensates for any clunkiness along the way.

Tesla's software operations (apart from Autopilot) are well below 1990s best practice. It's not Silicon Valley style, it's goofing-off-dumbasses style.

Weirdly, the *hardware* seems to be done with best practices agile development. The software development is complete garbage, though. VERY odd.

 

[SammichLover]

Tesla's software operations (apart from Autopilot) are well below 1990s best practice. It's not Silicon Valley style, it's goofing-off-dumbasses style.

Weirdly, the *hardware* seems to be done with best practices agile development. The software development is complete garbage, though. VERY odd.

You've entirely missed my point, the product is done SV style. Successfully.

Also that is, to put it charitably, a bizarre assessment of the results of Tesla's software development. You are looking at the results? Or what are you basing that on? The "goofing-off-dumbasses" has me particularly puzzled? Whatever are you talking about?

The car wouldn't function without software that didn't work well, there's no real hardware-software dichotomy here when you look at the product. I was there in the 90's. I would have, for example, shivved my grandmother for a PC that pulled off its function as well and as reliably as the Tesla does. This is a crazy complex control system that's shoved into a mobile consumer product. It is mind-numbing how far this task is past anything that was being pulled off then.