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Powerwall 2 in Florida

Discussion in 'Tesla Energy' started by kc_moses, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    Just out of curiosity, how many people have received their Powerwall 2 in Florida, especially South Florida? I would think since Florida is such a hurricane prone area, I'm surprise most Powerwall 2 installs are only done in California area at the moment. Aside for regulation, what make Tesla so glow to get into Florida area?

    I had my Powerwall 2 reserved in February, as of right now I still haven't heard anything. I badly needed it when Hurricane Irma come. When the power went out for 5 days, many of my neighbors asked me about my solar panel, and I told them I can't use it because the Powerwall 2 is no where to be found. I would think Tesla could market heavily in Florida and get the Powerwall 2 project going faster in Florida like what they're doing with Puerto Rico, but that's not the case. What's going on?
     
  2. Shygar

    Shygar Member

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    Friend of mine in south FL is waiting as well.
     
  3. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    Thanks, I suspect I'm not the only one in FL. It's strange as Tesla basically can dominate the market in the state and many home owners would be easy to convert if they see how the PW2 help during hurricane season. I mean, not needing to go to the gas station to get gas for generator, not needing to deal with the noise/fume of generator.

    My Solar panel installer said their installer is being train/certified as the PW2 installer, and was told Tesla is taking their time to train people......
     
  4. Shygar

    Shygar Member

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    My friend said his solar guy is pushing him towards LG Chem batteries. Said Powerwalls just aren't available. Maybe that is changing soon though.
     
  5. kenrogers2

    kenrogers2 New Member

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    I'm also looking for an installer in the Miami area. I ordered two PowerWall 2's in December. And the closest certified PW installers that I've been able to find seem to be in the Tampa and Orlando area.

    If anyone knows of other installers closer, let me know, please.
    I'd like to call them to see if I can speed up the process of getting my PowerWalls.
     
  6. davecolene0606

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    Fort Pierce, FL
    I'm in Fort Pierce. Was at the PW1 launch party put in an "order" there, nuthin. Put my money down for 2 PW2 the moment the website allowed. Got an email in July saying November to January availability. I have been raking all my contacts to no avail since.
    Have also been trying to get my solar installer (Abundant Energy, Jupiter, FL) certified and no dice there yet either.

    Really wanna have before next hurricane season. Only lost power this year for 24hrs but lost it for 19 days back in 2004 (Francis then Gene).

    I'll chime in when I hear different. Anyone have the name of the certified Florida installers?
     
  7. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    Kenrogers, give Urban Solar a call, ask for JR and tell him Moses refer you. They're in the process of getting train and certify to install the PW2. Urban Solar is in Boca Raton so it's in our area (I'm in Lake Worth). When I call Tesla in July/August, they told me the PW2 itself is available to be release (i.e no production issue), as long as I can find an installer, otherwise we will just have to wait for Tesla to bring up their installer vendor and have them assign installers to us, which could take a while.

    I still haven't get pricing about the installation of the PW2, my house was built in 2015/2016, hopefully it doesn't need new breaker box that cost $2K like many people mentioned in CA. Hopefully we will get our PW2 installed by end of the year.
     
  8. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    The LG Chem battery cost the same as the PW2 but 2/3 of the capacity of the PW2. Even after 10 years of deterioration, the PW2 would still hold a lot of juice. I think many installer push none PW2 because other batteries are readily available.
     
  9. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    Other than having a battery backup for when the grid goes down, what is your rationale for the expense of a PW2?

    I live in Palm Beach (FPL) and have solar. The only benefit of having the PW2s is for power supply when grid is down. With net metering the PW2s do nothing to help with my power bill so there is no ROI. Also, I would need 4 PW2s to power my home entirely when grid goes down. I can get a full house generator with a buried propane tank cheaper than the PW2s.

    Is it just to be green? Am I wrong in my understanding on how net metering works?
     
  10. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    Urban Solar group may do job in Jupiter, give them a call. The production of the battery should no longer an issue (they ramp up production of the PW2 since March after they clear the backlog of the car battery: Tesla Powerwall 2 is ready to ship, was slightly delayed due to Gigafactory batteries going to Powerpacks | Crowdz - Corporate Info)

    As soon as there is installer available, we just need to pay the balance of the PW2, Tesla will release the PW2 to the installer and the installation company will work with us.
     
  11. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    There are a couple things that you need to find out about how FPL work/bill, I have Lake Worth Utility so I can't speak much about how Netmetering work for FPL. From my understanding the Netmetering doesn't help us Solar home owner much. I will use an example (these are just made up number):

    During the day (none peak hour), the electricity is $0.09/kwh, my solar panel would generate more electricity than I can use, so when I "sell" it back to the grid, they pay me $0.03 (i.e cost price). They turn around and resell the electric I fed them, and charge other customers for $0.09/kwh, so they make profit out of my solar panel. My Solar company told me just because I can put 20 panels on my roof, doesn't mean I should because the surplus will just be a bad investment and the utility company is profit from it.

    Here is the upsetting part, when the sun goes down and when I get home, I use electricity from the grid during peak hour, which could be at $0.13/kwh. With Netmetering, I could be paying $0.9/kwh (the rate when I have surplus), or $0.13/kwh (no one has the answer about how the grid/meter/bill works) the moment my solar can't power my house.

    By having the PW2, I will store the surplus electricity I generated during the day, when I get home, I use it instead of sell the surplus to the grid for pennies then draw it back later for an inflated price. In a sense, the PW2 will further lower the electric bill in my case.

    Since you have FPL, go through this site and understand the TOU/Peak time period:

    FPL | Rates | Residential Time of Use Rate

    Also, when you get home, your electricity usage will only go up during peak hours, so your PW2 may drain faster during those hours, and I believe you can program the PW2 to draw power from the grid during none peak hours at the cheaper rate (A lot of Tesla car owners want to do this). Since after 11 pm, most people goes to sleep, electricity usage goes down, so I don't think you need 4 PW2 batteries to run your house because you only need to keep the essential things running like fridge/freezer/AC and light.

    Hope this make sense. I'm still research and these are what I understand so far.
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    #12 Racerx22b, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    @kc_moses

    That is not how net metering works with FPL.

    From Jan-Nov it is an even trade back and forth of electricity. If I generate 1000kWh in Jan but only use 500kWh I have a standing credit with FPL of 500kWh (I don't get a check in the mail for the extra 500kWh). If in Feb I generate 500kWh and use 1000kWh I am back even. I don't see any financial credit on my bill all year until I receive my December bill.

    If after the whole year has passed I have extra energy than I used I do get a check back from FPL at wholesale rate. Knowing that, I didn't size my solar system to be more than I needed as I knew my ROI from the credits would never be worth the extra expense of solar. As of now, I only get net zero power use a few months a year so there is basically no chance at all that I will ever generate more than I use.

    From my understanding, if I had a PW the extra energy I generate each day would go to the PW for me to use when the sun goes down. With net metering, all my extra energy generated goes back to the grid and I receive full credit for it so FPL is essentially my PW (during the day my meter runs backwards at times and then at night it runs back the normal way). Both do exactly the same thing but in different ways. However, using FPL as my "PW" saves me the expense of having to buy the PW. The only disadvantage I have is that I have no power when the grid goes down.

    Does that make sense?

    Regarding the # of PWs I would need... If I only wanted to run the essentials you are correct. But I don't want to just run the essentials. I want the entire house to run as if the grid was up. I don't compromise.

    Regarding the time of use... FPL does offer this but I am not sure you can do this with a net meter. I inquired about this before I got solar and it required me to replace my meter in order to participate. I had to replace my meter for net metering. I don't think they have a combo net meter and time of use meter. Even if they did.... It would take FOREVER to make up the cost of a PW installation just by trying to take advantage of the time of use program.

    Don't get me wrong.. I love the look and intention of PW but at the end of the day it needs to make financial sense to me. I just can't figure out how to make sense of it with the current program offered by FPL. Justifying solar itself was hard enough.
     
  13. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    @Racerx22b In your case FPL seems to work more favorable for Solar Users. Lake Worth Utilities is known for their bad utilities so the Solar + PW2 is better investment for me, not to mention our utility rate is higher than FPL.

    With that said, I'm not sure if they will ever get rid of Netmetering down the road. So may be it's a wait and see kind of situation for you?
     
    • Like x 1
  14. Karma

    Karma Member

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    Here's one thing to keep in mind when considering PW, PW2 or other battery storage: when the grid goes down due to a storm event, the electricity you are generating from your panels is cut-off for safety reasons. The power company doesn't want your electrons running through a line which they need to be de-energized in order to repair. If you have battery storage, you are able to have a closed loop system, thereby continuously generating power from your panels and pushing it into your batteries, and not into the grid.

    This is one reason why I'm currently getting quotes in the Clearwater, Florida area, which includes 2 power walls to go along with the panels (I'd need 4 for whole house independence, but can live with the 2).
     
  15. JRoque

    JRoque Member

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    Hi all,

    The incidence of hurricanes affecting FL alone is not enough to justify any major backup investment; there were 12 years between Wilma and Irma. The motivation here is the anxiety and discomfort, if not outright health risk, when one does hit.

    On each of Wilma (2005) and now Irma last month, we were ~5 days without power. This is not a mild issue of not having lights in your house, it also affects gasoline pumps, supermarkets, restaurants, pharmacies, cellphone, cable TV, etc. It is stressful, to say the least.

    Solar power with battery backup can solve these issues. A ~14kW solar install with 2 or 3 PWs can essentially run an entire FL home - central AC and all - for a few days, if not indefinitely. Ref: Tesla Powerwall.

    At $17K for the PWs alone, it is not cheap and roughly $7K or more than installing an equivalent gas generator (ref: Cost to Install a Backup Generator - Estimates and Prices at Fixr). There are some drawbacks with gensets, however. They need gas, maintenance, make noise, spew toxics, and delay between the outage and when they come online.

    Separately, a bit about electricity rates for those making numbers: FPL currently charges 12.25 cents per kW/h. Not 10 cents like most online info say. They were charging 11 cents last year and they will charge 14 or more cents next year. In fact, they have been requesting approval for 24% rate increase recently. To see the true cost for yourself, look at your bottom line bill and divide by kWh used. They don't pay you that much when they're crediting your surplus.

    JR
     
  16. YellyYeti

    YellyYeti Member

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    Location:
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    I am in the process of getting a 14.9kW solar system through the Seminole County co-op, and I have FPL. I am not getting battery backup because of the net metering, and the relative scarcity of power outages. I lost power for 3 days with Irma, and 2 for Matthew, so I figured it was not worth it. Maybe one day Tesla will let me use the 100kWh battery sitting idle in my garage during these storms.

    Question: is there a technical/regulation/political reason why a solar system cannot isolate itself from the grid during a power outage, and power the house while the sun is shining? Being able to run the refrigerators in power freeze mode during the hours of sunshine could potentially save a lot of food from spoiling. Running the AC for just a few hours can keep the humidity down, you can charge devices, etc. It doesn't even need to be automatic, I would be fine with having to go flip a few switches. I would switch off non-essentials anyway.

    Edit: Not to forget, being able to charge the Tesla during the day would be a nice to have!
     
  17. patrick40363

    patrick40363 Member

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    You need a battery backup to power the home off solar.
     
  18. JRoque

    JRoque Member

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    Technical: You need a system with an automatic transfer switch or contactor that can isolate you from the grid. Typical grid-tied inverters are, well, grid-tied and won't work when the grid is out. Some "hybrid" systems generate their own local 60Hz (or 50Hz) to make inverters think the grid is back on - but with the contactor disengaged, nothing flows back to the power lines. Other systems use 2 different inverters, 1 for grid-tie, 1 for local when power is out. The latter could require additional circuit panels and picking what you really want to run during an outage.

    Systems like Tesla's PW can work like a computer UPS. When power goes out, transfer switches/contactors are activated to isolate you from the grid within milliseconds. It can use power from solar panels, 'trick' other inverters to think the grid is still on so they continue to produce, or use it's own batteries to make power. It will charge the batteries during the day and use them at night.

    Regulation: In US, UL-1741 requirement says your inverter must shutdown immediately after a power outage and not reconnect until 5 mins after utility has returned. This is to protect line workers. It has been successfully used by utilities to discourage potential solar buyers and by the media to whip everyone to a frenzy around "FL law prohibits solar panels during an outage".

    Political: utility lobbyists are hard at work coming up with new reasons to prevent people from generating their own power and cutting into their profits.

    JR
     
    • Informative x 2
  19. kc_moses

    kc_moses Member

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    When factoring the cost of PW2, correct me if I'm wrong, the PW2 should be eligible for the 30% tax rebate, and no sales tax in FL. Depends on the size of the house, most 1500 sq ft house should be able to operate off of one PW2 overnight. Of course when the power goes out, one should be more conserve and not run any 220v appliance when the PW2 kick in. These days I only run my washer and drying during the day. So in theory 1 PW2 should be enough for regular single family home.
     
  20. eml2

    eml2 Member

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    Even if you can technically isolate the solar from the grid, you still have two problems to solve if you want to power the house with just the PV panels,

    1. Solar power is not a reliable source to provide constant power. What happen if your house load is 2 kW and there is cloud passing by which causes your solar output to drop below 2 kW?

    2. In case when your solar power produces more power than your house load, where will the extra power go to, since the grid is down?

    Both cases can be solved by having a battery.
     

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