Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives

[TEG]

Many cities are "converting" from PG&E to Silicon Valley Clean Energy...
Silicon Valley Clean Energy

Anyone know how that would effect possible rebates/incentives?

 

[Ulmo]

I found a document for Silicon Valley Clean Energy here:

https://www.svcleanenergy.org/files/managed/Document/648/SVCEResidentialElectricGenerationRates.pdf

Um, wow: $0.028/kWh for EV use at graveyard hours in the EV plan.

I'm confused: they have a bunch of plans that are just "$0.07/kWh for all electricity". That's a lot better than almost all of their listed plans, except for the EV rate plan. How do they do that, and why would they offer more expensive plans than that (besides the graveyard discount plan for EV's)?

They have a solar NEM plan at: Rooftop Solar : Silicon Valley Clean Energy

This is all crazy. This is nothing like PG&E, yet all of their plans exactly mirror the "format" of the PG&E rate plans. Even their most expensive plan is cheap as hell! How do they do this? I am missing something -- edit, scratch that -- see "I found it", below.

Anyway, I have no answer to your question. In this myriad of programs and plans, there are lots of hidden gems and gotchas that would take a master to know about, or much more likely, someone else from your particular situation.

I found it. Here's an example: In their Q&A, they have:

What is this “High Usage Surcharge” that is showing up on my PG&E bill?
This is a state required “high usage surcharge” that is applied to the part of the energy that exceeds four times the baseline allowance, and applies to Tiered Rate plan (E-1) customers, it is not an SVCE charge, and will apply to all E-1 customers.

In their E1 plan, they have "All electric usage: $0.06763/kWh"

At the bottom of their rate plan sheet, they have:

Other Rate Information

PG&E Electric Rates

This SVCE rate sheet does not provide a listing of PG&E’s generation or non-generation rates. PG&E rates are subject to change over the course of the year. The most up-to-date information on these rates is available on PG&E’s tariff sheets, at Pacific Gas & Electric - Tariffs . On PG&E tariff sheets, PG&E’s generation rates are listed under the “Unbundling of Total Rates”, which is found after the listing of “Total Rates”. All other charges which comprise PG&E’s “bundled” charges (e.g. distribution, transmission, tiering adjustments, and other charges) are assessed equally to SVCE and PG&E electric generation customers.

That last one is big enough for a truck to drive through. The earlier one about "baseline allowance" is completely incomplete information, without knowing that "baseline allowance". But, it does help explain why some plans are more expensive than others, because after you get past baseline allowance, the rate goes to coocoo land, so the other plans might behave differently.

 

[miimura]

Regarding SV Clean Energy. The rates they show are only the Generation portion. You still have to pay all the Distribution and other miscellaneous charges from the "Unbundled Rates" section of the PG&E tariff. The way I calculated it, SVCE is fractions of a cent less than PG&E rates across all time periods and rate plans. In theory, they should be able to make that differential bigger over time as renewable energy gets cheaper. However, it doesn't do anything about the Distribution charges that PG&E negotiates with the PUC.

The significant thing is that Net Surplus Generation is paid at SVCE's retail rates (ie. 7c/kWh) instead of the PG&E Wholesale rates of about 3.5c/kWh.

Edit: Correction - the Generation rates for SVCE Schedule EV are 2-4c/kWh less than the unbundled PG&E Generation rates on the same schedule. Because my usage is so skewed to Off-Peak, I will request immediate true-up and enrollment instead of waiting until next year. I just had my true-up in December, so the automatic enrollment would not happen until Jan 2018.

 

[Ulmo]

@miimura , thanks for explaining that; so S.V.C.E.'s rates are just form-fitted and interfaced into PG&E's as a special add-on package to an underlying subset of PG&E rate systems.

Hold on tight ! To this, we add things in the next half decade to decade like what I conceive of as Smart Grid Passthrough Rates for Grid Services , and all sorts of neat little market rate tricks , but the thing is, California, being very Chinese-communist-influenced, will want to keep doing redistributive wealth transfers using energy rate plans , pay for botched projects , continue paying for guaranteed profit contracts , and pay extra for tearing down perfectly good clean energy plants like hydroelectric dams and nuclear power plants , so the rates will never really be very close to market rate plans. Soon, it will require an electronic book 100 pages long just to know what your electricity rate plan is if you become the typical household with battery, electric vehicle, and solar panels . What bureaucratic fun!

What I pray for is that the true value of the battery, solar, and electric vehicle systems shine through, each in their respective rights, in the rate plans, despite that spaghetti of influences on the regulated utility rate plans.

It's quite enough to make some wealthy people say heck with it and pay the order of magnitude more it costs to just get enough for year round batteries, but that is only within reach of extremely extremely few people. I think more frequent than that, off-grid systems will be more popular in places that already have and frequently use diesel backup such as mountain areas, and they'll add solar and batteries for a large proportion of their use, and use diesel to fill in the voids, and enjoy much lower fossil fuel use than in prior years.

For the rest of us, we'll slowly learn what the "optimum" setup is given the usual back and forth of market rates, regulation, and smart grid in the middle of it all. Once we get a handle on the basics, it will be fun to watch unfold.

 

[winfield100]

8. Grid Services. Your System is capable of supporting the reliability of the electrical grid by providing services under programs offered by utilities or third parties. You grant us the right to access and use your System to provide these services. Before we do this, we will explain the terms of your participation in the relevant program and give you the opportunity to opt-out.

[#8 is AWESOME!!!!! I bolded it because I think it is the most enabling technology on the list in terms of global conversion to clean energy, and has fascinating economic questions that I doubt will ever be answered until the end of time and will continue to be a great marketplace.]

number 8 sure sounds like you can be a node in a VPP (virtual power plant). that is so cool....

 

[miimura]

For more info on Silicon Valley Clean Energy, see my post in the California Forum.
Silicon Valley Clean Energy CCA (Santa Clara County)

 

[ohmman]

Hold on tight ! To this, we add things in the next half decade to decade like what I conceive of as Smart Grid Passthrough Rates for Grid Services , and all sorts of neat little market rate tricks , but the thing is, California, being very Chinese-communist-influenced, will want to keep doing redistributive wealth transfers using energy rate plans , pay for botched projects , continue paying for guaranteed profit contracts , and pay extra for tearing down perfectly good clean energy plants like hydroelectric dams and nuclear power plants , so the rates will never really be very close to market rate plans.

I did have to hold on tight for that one. Thanks for the warning.

By redistributive wealth transfer through energy rate plans, are you talking about tiered pricing or something else I'm overlooking? Because tiered rate plans are pretty standard issue (I had them in Texas) and are defensible from a pure market based standpoint.

 

[Ulmo]

I did have to hold on tight for that one. Thanks for the warning.

By redistributive wealth transfer through energy rate plans, are you talking about tiered pricing or something else I'm overlooking? Because tiered rate plans are pretty standard issue (I had them in Texas) and are defensible from a pure market based standpoint.

That's the major one, yes.

I see using more energy in a clean and efficient manner as a path to wealth, and the more that those who are good at using energy can lead others who are not as good at using it, the better. So, I think the tiered conservation path, now that we have access to clean energy, is not the best use of energy. But, before we get there, we have to replace dirty energy with clean energy. We've been partially doing that, so far.

To me, this concept that those of us who use more energy have to be punished is a bad idea. On the other hand, if those who used polluting energy were the ones paying the $0.50/kWh and those who were using the non-polluting energy were the ones paying the lower rates, then I'd be in favor of that if that were the only variable, but since it's not, I can't just automatically be in favor of it; it isn't the only variable, because there are other variables we want to use in market based systems like availability, variability, storage, etc. as some of the price components of the price to build the physical components, however, if dirtiness was just another variable component of market price that dissuaded use of dirty energy and didn't give excess of that dissuaded higher price to the polluters, while I would like that, it seems difficult to implement by government forces. I'm being very general on purpose. Specifics are already being worked on by many people, and they have a lot of work to do, so I don't want to detract from any successes they've had.

An outright ban on dirty energy projects with turning down existing dirty energy as much as possible to 0 and then flattening of the prices to whatever they cost to buy and deliver would be my preferred method, even if those prices fluctuate wildly because of the variability of the components.

This is a rare time in history that China actually wants more clean energy and to use lots of it. We should take advantage of that commonality and say "us too", and not ever accept any argument (from them or anyone) that says to use less energy overall or more dirty energy. Of course, making energy use more efficient is always good.

 

[jeep1979]

There seems to be some confusion regarding the SGIP program and the Powerwall batteries. Here is information I received from SCE on the rebate.

"It qualifies for an incentive depending how the battery will be utilized. If the battery is strictly a backup system to discharge only when electric service goes out, then it is not eligible for a SGIP rebate. Backup systems are not eligible in the program.

If the system is to be used to offset onsite peak electric demand then, yes it is eligible.

One of the proposed changes is that residential energy storage systems whether they are on time-of-use rates, dynamic rates, or participate in the wholesale market are required to discharge a minimum of 52 discharges per year. These do not have to be 52 100% depth of discharges, but the cumulative kWh discharged at the end of the year must total the equivalent of 52 full discharges of the SGIP-incentivized energy capacity. If your system can meet this criteria, then it is eligible for a SGIP rebate."

So just installing a Powerwall 2 battery does not qualify one for the rebate. No word yet if the proposed change was put in to the new SGIP program. If it is, I would think it would severely limit the number of people who would qualify for the rebate.

 

[jeep1979]

Ok, just obtained a copy of the 2017 SGIP Handbook. for those who would like a read it is available from www.selfgenca.com, but it is not listed yet. You can get it from this link:

https://www.selfgenca.com/documents/handbook/2017

 

[jeep1979]

I see where the SGIP program has finally published the link for the 2017 SGIP manual on their website.

I am going with two Powerwall 2 batteries, but would have still opted for the whole house backup even with one battery. It is not my intention to run heavy demand devices such as AC, spa, etc. I only have a PZEV vehicle and could get by without charging in a pinch.
The whole house approach relieves the issue of deciding which circuits to power during an outage. I had solar installed several years ago by a good company, so have not had to deal with Solar City for a photo-voltaic panel installation

Today, I received an email from Solar City regarding the SGIP program. Here are the contents of that email.

Dear Keith,

Congratulations on joining the transition to sustainable energy. Your Tesla Powerwall may be eligible for a rebate through the California Self-Generation Incentive Program (SGIP).* SGIP provides incentives to support existing, new, and emerging distributed energy resources, like the Powerwall. The program opens May 1, 2017 for participating California Utilities (San Diego Gas and Electric, Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, and SoCal Gas) and will close when the funds are used up.

It's going to be first come first served, so you'll need to act fast! To express your interest in receiving a rebate reservation form, sign up below. Requests will be processed in the order they are received. Availability is limited and rebates are not guaranteed, even if you are sent rebate reservation documents to sign. .


SGIP Incentive Overview

The SGIP program is made up of five "steps" with different rates. The first applicants will receive the largest incentive, set at 50 cents/watt-hour. Step 1 is expected to be exhausted very quickly. Steps 2 through 5 decrease the incentive rate for each step. The incentive per Powerwall could vary between $1,175 and $5,875 depending on when the reservation is issued by the SGIP program. There is no guarantee of the incentive until all requirements are met. For more information, click here to visit the SGIP Program Website.


Program Requirements

Participants must meet certain requirements to reserve a rebate prior to installation of your Powerwall, in order to be paid. To be eligible, you'll need to be ready for the following-

Return & sign documents quickly. A substantial number of documents are required to collect the incentive at multiple steps of the process, such as utility bills, contracts and customer-signed forms.

Complete energy audit. You’ll need to have an energy efficiency audit performed on your home (more information will be included in the reservation information that will be sent to you).

Agree to rebate inspection. SGIP officials may need to inspect the system after installation. A sample of jobs will be selected by the SGIP program for inspection.

Agree to battery cycling. You may not use the energy storage system solely as a source of backup power. The battery must discharge all of its stored energy at least 52 times per year which can be done by having part of its capacity dedicated for Solar Self Consumption or Load Shifting Time of Use.
I'm in! What's Next?

If you are interested in checking your eligibility and applying for this rebate, click below:
I’M INTERESTED!
If you have any questions regarding this incentive program, please contact us for further assistance at 888-SOL-CITY (888-765-2489).

*Restrictions may apply. Rebate payment is not guaranteed.

***********************************************************

In part of my email chain for my installation, here is what Tesla said:

"SolarCity will be the developer, and will submit the application on your behalf in the order customers return their documents."

This is good, at least for me, as I find the applications process steps through the SGIP website a little bit confusing.

 

[jeep1979]

Received an email update regarding the SGIP yesterday from Solar City. It is requesting copies of utility bills required for filing for the rebate. One significant point in the email mentions that "Customers who are applying through the residential program are eligible for a rebate for up to two Powerwalls". Until now, I was not sure how many powerwalls (other than one) were eligible for the rebate.

Unfortuantely, the socalgas.com website has been down all weekend, so I am unable to get a pdf copy of my gas bill to send in to keep the rebate ball rolling.

 

[Waiting4M3]

My coworker (SF bay area) had Powerwall 2 site visit early last week, and received the installation proposal later last week, install within a month. Tesla will also do the SGIP paperwork for him. Apparently the filing needs some inspection on the house, luckily he had installed solar before and had the inspection done <5 years ago, so he can file with the same inspection report.

 

[RubberToe]

All,
I haven't been following the Powerwall developments or monitoring the threads here at all. I'm just including the following text from an e-mail that I received from my Solar installer (not Solar City). My system was installed in February 2016. It looks like they have some kind of agreement with Tesla to install Powerwalls...

Dear Homeowner,

As you already know the 2017 SGIP Home Battery storage rebate is approved and will be open for very short period of time.
If you are interested in home energy storage and have not applied for rebate, please let us know and we will provide you with best-guaranteed quote for the battery including Tesla PowerWall 2.0. We carry all brands of home storage batteries and are a Certified Tesla Installer

The Application Deadline is May 1 and it will take only a few days. This is one of a kind opportunity to get this state rebate. The program has a high demand each year.

The most popular storage option is the Tesla PowerWall 2.0.

The Tesla PowerWall 2.0 is a 14kW Battery. See the Spec Sheet attached
The cost for you is 12,500.00, installed turn key
The estimated SGIP Rebate is going to be $7,000.00. This is not a guaranteed rebate. We will submit all the paperwork on your behalf and if you don't get the rebate then you don't have to go ahead.
You can potentially also qualify for the 30% tax credit to the cost after the rebate.
Cost after rebate: $5,500.00 (Before Tax Credit)

 

[jeep1979]

Some of your solar installer statements are misleading but their wording of it gets them off the hook.

1) The application deadline is not May 1. That is the first day that the SGIP program reopens. It is on a first come first serve basis with a declining rebate amount as certain rebate goals are met.

2) As stated in 1) The rebate is on a sliding scale and only goes down as budgets are used up. The later one files, the less likely you get the maximum rebate. There are 5 steps for the rebate amounts.

Step 1: $0.50 / watt hour
Step 2: $0.45 / watt hour
Step 3: $0.40 / watt hour
Step 4: $0.35 / watt hour
Step 5: $0.30 / watt hour

At 13.5 Kwh for the Powerwall 2, this would max out the Step 1 rebate at $6,750

Rebates are also based on storage duration:

Storage Duration Incentive Rate (% of base incentive)
0-2 hours 100%
Greater than 2 hours to 4 hours 50%
Greater than 4 hours to 6 hours 25%
Greater than 6 hours 0%

I am not sure how to interpret this. I am guessing to say that the more capacity of storage, the smaller the percentage of rebate. Don't quote me on that.

3) Reading over the SGIP incentive program, if one applies for the Investment Tax Credit (ITC), one would get a reduced rebate amount. In this case you can't have your cake and eat it too.

4) I don't know who your installer is, but Solar City quotes for one Powerwall 2 is $7,730.50 (that's turnkey).

Breakdown:

Powerwall 2: $5,500.00
Backup Gateway $ 700.00
Permitting Fees $ 150.00
Installation Services $ 900.00
Taxes $ 480.50
----------------------------------------
Total $7,730.50

So with the maximum rebate amount of $6,750 your total cost after rebate would be

$7,730.50
-$6,750.00
--------------
$ 980.50

Tremendous difference. I'd go with another installer.

 

[jeffy1021]

I created an account just to post this...

@RubberToe I received the exact same email haha. I think they are just throwing up a big number as a buffer to cover any complications that may arise from the installation process. To me that doesn't really make sense since they installed our PV systems and should know what our electrical setup is and would therefore be able to provide a more accurate estimate of the actual installation cost.

@jeep1979 I've been studying the SGIP Handbook and here is how I interpret it. Disclaimer - I am not a tax or legal expert, others please feel free to correct me if I am off.

• For PG&E at least, the maximum incentive is 60% of the total project cost.
• Residential Installations (less than 10kW) can claim the full incentive rate even if they take the ITC. Since the Powerwall 2 is rated at 13.5kW, maybe installers are only going to claim them at 10kW ($5000 at step 1)? Projects over 10kW are subject to the reduced incentive rate if taking the ITC
• Energy duration is calculated by using the capacity and discharge rate. I am not sure if we are to use the peak or continuous rate for the Powerwall 2. So the energy duration could be 13.5 kWh / 7 kW (peak) = 1.92 hours which would qualify for 100% of the incentive. But another possibility could be that since 13.5 kWh / 5 kW (continuous) = 2.7 hours, the 3.5 kWh capacity that falls into the 2-4 hour range maybe receive 50% of the initial incentive rate.
• The ITC is taken against the net system cost (after rebates) unless you receive a 1099 for the amount of the rebate.
• If taking the ITC, 80%+ of the energy used to charge the battery must come from a renewable source for 5 years. And actually to claim the full 30% ITC, the battery must be charged exclusively from a renewable source. The SGIP Handbook states a similar stipulation too.

Sources

• Self Generation Incentive program
  
• 2017 SGIP: What You Need To Know | CivicSolar
  
• https://www.selfgenca.com/documents/handbook/2017
  
• http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67558.pdf

 

[Kant.Ing]

@jeep1979 and @jeffy1021 The FAQ done by California Public Utilities Commission http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442452260 gave a simple example, "At a 50 cents/watt-hour level, a 4 hour, 10kW energy storage system would receive an incentive of $15,000, or $10,000 for zero to 20 kWhs (first two hours of duration x 10 kW X 50 cents) and $5,000 for the 21 to 40 kWhs (second two hours of duration x 10kW x 50 cents x 50%)."

Throughout the SGIP handbook, that 10 kW is like a charging rate to your electricity storage. So for another example, if one plans to charge a single AC Powerwall 2.0 through a solar PV with an average output of 4kW during summer noon, after the 10% efficiency reduction (from PV, inverter, gateway, to AC Powerwall), the average charging rate is 3.6kW (which is well within Step 1's 10kW limit). It will take no more than 4 hours to complete charging the Powerwall. Or assuming it's 4 hours total, and the first 2 hours charge 7kWh and the second 2 hours charge 6.5kWh, using the numbers from the 2 tables, 7000 Wh * $0.50 + 6500 Wh * $0.25 = $3500 + $1625 = $5,125 is the incentive this user can get. If you can charge the 13.5kWh system faster, say 10kW so the charging completes in 2 hours, thus 13500 Wh * $0.50 = $6,750, the incentive is more!

 

[Waiting4M3]

• For PG&E at least, the maximum incentive is 60% of the total project cost.

I found a link on PG&E's SGIP page, pointing to some changes in Decision 16-06-055 on June 23, 2016. Specifically the 60% requirement is no longer necessary:
https://www.pge.com/en_US/business/...rogram/self-generation-incentive-program.page
"3.4. Minimum Customer Investment Provision
D.11-09-015 implemented a requirement that host customers bear at least 40% of the cost of a project receiving SGIP incentives. Therefore the total incentive support from SGIP or SGIP in combination with other grant programs such as the federal Investment Tax Credit was limited to a maximum of 60%. The intent was two-fold: to prevent California ratepayers from paying an undue amount to support a given project and to ensure that participants had sufficient financial interest in the project being completed. In their comments on the Staff Proposal, Tesla argues that this provision creates an incentive for developers to err on the high side when reporting costs to ensure that they receive the full SGIP incentive. According to Tesla, this results in higher costs for utility ratepayers and does not encourage efficiency in driving down costs. Given the reduced incentive levels and increased application fee discusses herein, we find that this requirement that customers bear at least 40% of the total project cost is no longer necessary."

 

[outie]

All,
I haven't been following the Powerwall developments or monitoring the threads here at all. I'm just including the following text from an e-mail that I received from my Solar installer (not Solar City). My system was installed in February 2016. It looks like they have some kind of agreement with Tesla to install Powerwalls...

Dear Homeowner,

As you already know the 2017 SGIP Home Battery storage rebate is approved and will be open for very short period of time.
If you are interested in home energy storage and have not applied for rebate, please let us know and we will provide you with best-guaranteed quote for the battery including Tesla PowerWall 2.0. We carry all brands of home storage batteries and are a Certified Tesla Installer

The Application Deadline is May 1 and it will take only a few days. This is one of a kind opportunity to get this state rebate. The program has a high demand each year.

The most popular storage option is the Tesla PowerWall 2.0.

The Tesla PowerWall 2.0 is a 14kW Battery. See the Spec Sheet attached
The cost for you is 12,500.00, installed turn key
The estimated SGIP Rebate is going to be $7,000.00. This is not a guaranteed rebate. We will submit all the paperwork on your behalf and if you don't get the rebate then you don't have to go ahead.
You can potentially also qualify for the 30% tax credit to the cost after the rebate.
Cost after rebate: $5,500.00 (Before Tax Credit)

Also received the same email from the installer. I was like sign me up until I read they are charging 12,500! I was like Tesla is showing 700 for the supporting hardware (backup gateway?) and 800-2000 for installation. Even on he high side 2000 it should cost 8,200 plus tax. They said they are currently working with Tesla to resolve it (what??) and said "I am not sure how and why they can install this for 1500.00".

 

[jeffy1021]

@Kanting The CPUC FAQ also says the following in the energy duration section: "Note also that energy storage incentives are reduced as the rated duration of the energy storage system increases. Most energy storage systems are rated for a given number of hours of continuous discharge." This is why I was referencing the 5 kW continuous discharge rate of the Powerwall 2 as supposed to the AC rating of one's PV system.