Prediction: Coal has fallen. Nuclear is next then Oil.

[15Peter20]

If we can send up massively expensive telescopes for fun, freaking Space Power has to deserve at least some blue sky money.

Space power = moving solar panels 100 miles closer to the sun then converting EM radiation to electricity to EM radiation to electricity again at phenomenal expense.

Or let the sunlight manage to cover the extra 100 miles for free and convert it straight into usable electricity instead.

 

[eevee-fan]

Space power = moving solar panels 100 miles closer to the sun then converting EM radiation to electricity to EM radiation to electricity again at phenomenal expense.

Or let the sunlight manage to cover the extra 100 miles for free and convert it straight into usable electricity instead.

Space based means producing 24x7. No cloud coverage or night means more consistent output. For this benefit, we have to compare to cost of HVDC lines + battery backup on earth - or burn fossil fuel.

 

[mspohr]

Space based means producing 24x7. No cloud coverage or night means more consistent output. For this benefit, we have to compare to cost of HVDC lines + battery backup on earth - or burn fossil fuel.

... And the fact that demand drops dramatically at night and utilities can't sell power at any price

 

[eevee-fan]

... And the fact that demand drops dramatically at night and utilities can't sell power at any price

Space-based means you can redirect the energy to Peak Time. It's always 5pm somewhere. LOL

 

[David_Cary]

... And the fact that demand drops dramatically at night and utilities can't sell power at any price

Does it though when heating the house? And of course, cars can be charged at night - still a bit easier than during the day since most are parked in a garage.

 

[eevee-fan]

Does it though when heating the house? And of course, cars can be charged at night - still a bit easier than during the day since most are parked in a garage.

EV charging, if every/most parking spots have V1G/V2G, can be done during the day. Solar is the most distributed form of energy and least stress to the grid, as long as energy is delivered close by.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

EV charging, if every/most parking spots have V1G/V2G, can be done during the day. Solar is the most distributed form of energy and least stress to the grid, as long as energy is delivered close by.

you've countered your own argument for 24/7 spaced-based power right there. Power use can be cyclical and can be matched (with some battery buffering) to when we receive sunlight down here on terra firma.

 

[eevee-fan]

you've countered your own argument for 24/7 spaced-based power right there. Power use can be cyclical and can be matched (with some battery buffering) to when we receive sunlight down here on terra firma.

I am waiting to see if space solar can become more cost competitive or Masi e build out of HVDC plus storage. The latter, small players can join,, not so for space.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I am waiting to see if space solar can become more cost competitive or Masi e build out of HVDC plus storage. The latter, small players can join,, not so for space.

You don't have to wait. Just ask China how much their HVDC infrastructure cost to build and you'll get your answer.

Currently with SpaceX (falcon 9), the per kg launch cost is $2700/kg (max payload capacity of 22,800kg). Currently a 300w solar panel weighs ~20kg (roughly converts to 70kg for 1kw worth of panels). So simply launching the solar panels (without supporting structural members nor wireless transmissions devices) would cost $189,000 / kw of power produced (haven't even factored in transmission losses yet). And each rocket launch can only bring up 325kw worth of solar panels. So just to launch 1GW of solar panels into space would already cost $189B and require over 3000 Falcon 9 rocket launches!

Starship will lower launch costs significantly, but you're still looking at decades of launches and tens of billions of dollars just to bring up 1GW of solar panels. Assuming you can convince Elon to dedicate starship launch capacity for solar panels instead of preparing for Mars colonization. And don't forget that meteorites will perforate the array into uselessness unless you have multiple redundant connections per panel.

Really, space-based solar power is a fantasy that ignored the realities of infrastructure and launch costs and their capacities. If the solar panels can be made in space, then it makes sense to deploy them out there, until then, keep the earth-made panels on earth.

 

[eevee-fan]

You don't have to wait. Just ask China how much their HVDC infrastructure cost to build and you'll get your answer.

Currently with SpaceX (falcon 9), the per kg launch cost is $2700/kg (max payload capacity of 22,800kg). Currently a 300w solar panel weighs ~20kg (roughly converts to 70kg for 1kw worth of panels). So simply launching the solar panels (without supporting structural members nor wireless transmissions devices) would cost $189,000 / kw of power produced (haven't even factored in transmission losses yet). And each rocket launch can only bring up 325kw worth of solar panels. So just to launch 1GW of solar panels into space would already cost $189B and require over 3000 Falcon 9 rocket launches!

Starship will lower launch costs significantly, but you're still looking at decades of launches and tens of billions of dollars just to bring up 1GW of solar panels. Assuming you can convince Elon to dedicate starship launch capacity for solar panels instead of preparing for Mars colonization. And don't forget that meteorites will perforate the array into uselessness unless you have multiple redundant connections per panel.

Really, space-based solar power is a fantasy that ignored the realities of infrastructure and launch costs and their capacities. If the solar panels can be made in space, then it makes sense to deploy them out there, until then, keep the earth-made panels on earth.

Well, until someone smart figures it all out, it's just an idea for now.

China to harvest sun’s energy in space and beam it to Earth for power by 2030

Civilian and military researchers will look at applications for the technology amid concerns about radiation and the potential for beams misfired from space.

www.scmp.com

 

[mspohr]

Well, until someone smart figures it all out, it's just an idea for now.

China to harvest sun’s energy in space and beam it to Earth for power by 2030

Civilian and military researchers will look at applications for the technology amid concerns about radiation and the potential for beams misfired from space.

www.scmp.com

A few technical problems:
Another hazard would be radiation. According to one calculation by a research team with Beijing Jiaotong University last year, residents could not live within a 5km range of the ground receiving station for the 1GW Chinese solar plant in space.
Even a train more than 10km away could experience problems such as sudden loss of communication because the frequency of the energised microwave would affect Wi-Fi.

 

[mspohr]

This town is the first in America to ban new gas stations – is the tide turning?

In March, Petaluma in Sonoma county became the first city in the US to ban future gas station construction or any new pumps on existing sites. In July Sonoma county’s Regional Climate Protection Authority voted to explore ways to support the nine cities in the county considering bans of their own. A final vote on the resolution is scheduled for September.

It’s the beginning of what could be a seismic shift. California now has the highest sales of electric vehicles (EVs) in the country. Close to 11% of all new car sales were electric in the first three months of this year and in 2020 the governor, Gavin Newsom, ordered all new cars and passenger trucks sales in California to be zero-emission vehicles by 2035. General Motors and others have pledges to have an all electric vehicle lineup by 2035.

 

[eevee-fan]

This town is the first in America to ban new gas stations – is the tide turning?

In March, Petaluma in Sonoma county became the first city in the US to ban future gas station construction or any new pumps on existing sites. In July Sonoma county’s Regional Climate Protection Authority voted to explore ways to support the nine cities in the county considering bans of their own. A final vote on the resolution is scheduled for September.

It’s the beginning of what could be a seismic shift. California now has the highest sales of electric vehicles (EVs) in the country. Close to 11% of all new car sales were electric in the first three months of this year and in 2020 the governor, Gavin Newsom, ordered all new cars and passenger trucks sales in California to be zero-emission vehicles by 2035. General Motors and others have pledges to have an all electric vehicle lineup by 2035.

Yep, not having fuel storage that would expand the fires would probably be a good thing.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Well, until someone smart figures it all out, it's just an idea for now.

China to harvest sun’s energy in space and beam it to Earth for power by 2030

Civilian and military researchers will look at applications for the technology amid concerns about radiation and the potential for beams misfired from space.

www.scmp.com

This is a test project (much like their coal-to-syngas projects), and it'll be used to validate many of the concerns already discussed. China has the money and industrial capacity to try and fail quickly. Remember, China deployed subsidies for the purchase of FCEV's and are now deploying resources to further develop fuel cell tech (because they learned that the tech is severely lacking). Meanwhile, their battery industry is expanding like gangbusters. Just because an entire country invests money into an idea, doesn't mean it's a good one (just look at all the DARPA projects that the DoD had invested in!).

 

[eevee-fan]

This is a test project (much like their coal-to-syngas projects), and it'll be used to validate many of the concerns already discussed. China has the money and industrial capacity to try and fail quickly. Remember, China deployed subsidies for the purchase of FCEV's and are now deploying resources to further develop fuel cell tech (because they learned that the tech is severely lacking). Meanwhile, their battery industry is expanding like gangbusters. Just because an entire country invests money into an idea, doesn't mean it's a good one (just look at all the DARPA projects that the DoD had invested in!).

Such is taking risk. DARPA invested in Internet, that worked out very well.

 

[eevee-fan]

Surging renewable energy in Texas prompts electricity generation adequacy questions

With little investment taking place in new thermal generation, does the design of Texas’ electricity market provide enough incentive to develop capacity for future power needs?

www.dallasfed.org

 

[miimura]

Surging renewable energy in Texas prompts electricity generation adequacy questions

With little investment taking place in new thermal generation, does the design of Texas’ electricity market provide enough incentive to develop capacity for future power needs?

www.dallasfed.org

As the article says, the solution is to implement a Capacity Market where generators are paid by the MW to be ready to generate. ERCOT currently only has an Energy Market that pays for delivered energy.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

As the article says, the solution is to implement a Capacity Market where generators are paid by the MW to be ready to generate. ERCOT currently only has an Energy Market that pays for delivered energy.

Oncor proposes giant leap for grid, batteries

The Dallas utility is asking the state to authorize $5.2 billion in storage projects it says will lower bills and improve reliability.

www.dallasnews.com

In 2014 Oncor proposed investment in what would be (at the time) about 5GW of batteries that they'd have distributed across its grid.
State said no.
Might want to rethink.

 

[eevee-fan]

Looks like CAISO has a new Demand page that shows Resource Adequacy. Seems the page is not ready for prime time but the chart titles are there.

California ISO - Today's Outlook

Monitor real-time grid conditions. View current and historical data for demand, net-demand, supply, renewables, CO2 emissions and wholesale energy prices.

www.caiso.com

 

[mblakele]

Speaking of California:

Vistra Completes Expansion of Battery Energy Storage System at its Flagship California Facility

/PRNewswire/ -- Vistra (NYSE: VST) recently completed construction on Phase II of its Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility. The battery system is now storing...

www.prnewswire.com