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Racked with indecision...

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Ok …I just can’t keep out of this any longer. And yes, naturally I direct this to more people than Pete.

Pete, you write: ”It's not an environmental decision/…” This frankly just blows my mind! The only viable explanation that the environment isn’t your killing argument is that you can not possibly be aware of the severity of the situation we’re in. Have you really done your due diligence on the climate of our planet?

...


Sincerely,
Claes Magnusson

I don't want to make this an environmetal debate. Tesla and Elon have always said that the Model S should stand on it's own ability as a car, regardless of the propulsion method, and I agree with that. To win the masses over, the masses currently driving ICE cars, it needs to compete on that level. If it cannot, then it'll always be niche. I absolutely agree with the concept of supporting Tesla in their goal of eventually making EV mainstream, and eventually reducing the burden on the environment. But, I live in Texas, and on the highway I only need to look as far as the 10mpg truck in front of me, or the 6mpg Hummer behind me, or the piece of junk to the side of me pushing out 10x the pollution of my current ICE car to realize the problem is far more significant than my choice to support EV's, and, frankly, automotive pollution is the tip of the iceberg.
 
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I haven’t figured out how to do those neat little baby blue quote-thingies, so I’ll do it old-school instead.

At 05:47 AM pete8314 wrote:


I don't want to make this an environmetal debate. Tesla and Elon have always said that the Model S should stand on it's own ability as a car, regardless of the propulsion method, and I agree with that. To win the masses over, the masses currently driving ICE cars, it needs to compete on that level. If it cannot, then it'll always be niche. I absolutely agree with the concept of supporting Tesla in their goal of eventually making EV mainstream, and eventually reducing the burden on the environment. But, I live in Texas, and on the highway I only need to look as far as the 10mpg truck in front of me, or the 6mpg Hummer behind me, or the piece of junk to the side of me pushing out 10x the pollution of my current ICE car to realize the problem is far more significant than my choice to support EV's, and, frankly, automotive pollution is the tip of the iceberg.


How can it be a problem to make it an environmental debate? By buying a Model S you reduce your energy consumption per mile with what compared to an A7 or an Evoque? Three or four times at a worst-case scenario with the electrons coming from a coal power plant? Feel free to correct me here, but isn’t that also before you account the amount of energy and resources that go into engineering and building the equipment needed to extract and transport (pipelines and ‘super’-tankers), refine and then again transport the oil to your local gas-pump. Isn’t the environmental debate really at the very heart of what the Model S is all about (all that lustrous sheet metal aside)?

And that’s not even going in to the amount of resources needed to keep the fifth fleet off the coast of Saudi Arabia at port in Bahrain (and that’s interestingly at the same time as the Saudis march in and eradicate the Bahraini people’s attempt at a democratic uprising…).

I of course can’t know, but my guess to Tesla’s, and Elon’s official stance, is that that’s what they choose to communicate in order to maximize Tesla’s success. And heck, they’re probably right.

Look, I understand where you’re coming from: The 10 mpg truck in front of you and the 6 mpg Hummer behind you. You’re absolutely right. The problem is of course much larger. But if I’ve understood you correctly, you (and many others on this board) are confident that you can spend 50-80K on the car you’re going to drive the next three years. 15.000+ (?) people have bought or reserved the Model S and/or X. And many more are eagerly awaiting the Tesla GENIII to boot. And that’s not counting everyone that’s bought (or leased) a Volt, Leaf, Honda EV, RAV4 or Focus EV. Feel free to correct me here, but doesn’t the broad political top down actions that I interpret that you’re asking for implicitly in your last sentences have to come from people like you voicing the need for a political change. And isn’t the personal choice of an EV over an ICE one way to not only personally become part of the solution, but also one way to start to raise such a voice.

On a side note: As I understand it, is the 10x pollution of that piece of junk to the side of your current ICE really a part of the bigger problem? Isn’t the big problem with ICE-cars the CO2? Sure the rest of what’s coming out of his exhaust is bad to inhale and acidic, but on the whole of things, isn’t it a relatively minor issue at this point?
 
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The way to do the quote thing: [ QUOTE ] .... stuff .... [ / QUOTE ] and just eliminate the spaces for the
business. Gotta keep it all together.
Or just hit the "Reply With Quote" link at the bottom of the part you wish to quote.

Re: environmental impact -- if Tesla produces the best car on earth regardless of propulsion system, then the environmental advantages of the system come along for the ride. So that's the target to shoot for.
 
Re: environmental impact -- if Tesla produces the best car on earth regardless of propulsion system, then the environmental advantages of the system come along for the ride. So that's the target to shoot for.


Thanks for the quoting-tutorial! Could't figure out how to get the actual tutorial included in the quote though, but that could perhaps be regarded as supplementary study. :redface:

Agreed on the environmental impact. Personally though, I'm kind of really, really hoping that the ride in question turns out to be a rather fast one. :love:
 
Maybe the tone in my first post in this thread was a bit too harsh (#39). That was of course not my intention. English is only my second language. My posts in this thread are merely meant as constructive feedback. It would be a real bummer if they were to cause anyone to not choose the Model S as his or her next car. That post has been updated with ‘disclaimers’.
 
Pete, I've been in similar situations before. Reading all of your posts, it sounds like your decision is "wants" vs "overextension". It sounds like the Gen 3 Tesla might be more appropriate for you. If it were me, I would either wait for 3 years and be at the front of the Gen 3 line, or lease a Volt while waiting. I know the Volt doesn't do much for you, but it will help pass the time, and the $249 lease is a no brainer, and lets you walk away after 3 years. The first time I bought a car without a loan I got a totally unexpected feeling of liberation that exceeded the pleasure of owning the car. Hard to explain. Better to say that a big car loan will dampen the euphoria of a car purchase for sure.

I made my Model S deposit 2 years ago. I've been saving the whole time. Two months to go. Now unexpectedly semi-retired early, and thankful that my Model S purchase will not require a loan.
 
How can it be a problem to make it an environmental debate? By buying a Model S you reduce your energy consumption per mile with what compared to an A7 or an Evoque? Three or four times at a worst-case scenario with the electrons coming from a coal power plant? Feel free to correct me here, but isn’t that also before you account the amount of energy and resources that go into engineering and building the equipment needed to extract and transport (pipelines and ‘super’-tankers), refine and then again transport the oil to your local gas-pump. Isn’t the environmental debate really at the very heart of what the Model S is all about (all that lustrous sheet metal aside)?

I just didn't want this thread to be all about the environmental aspects because, honestly, it has little bearing on my personal decision. I'm comfortable knowing that I do a lot more to protect the environment than many around me (again, I'm in Texas, so the bar is kind of low :)). The larger picture is far more complex than could be addressed in a few forum posts. You're right, the infrastructure to support gas/petrol pumps is immense. But on the flip side, the batteries in a Model S are not without consequence. Concrete has a horrible overhead in terms of environmental impact, yet there will be tonnes of it poured for every SuperCharger. I'm not saying that the Model S is anywhere close to being as bad for the environment as an ICE, but I am saying there's a larger picture, and without digging very deep into the supply chain for every part of a Model S, and then doing the same for a comparable ICE, we cannot know the full picture.

And that’s not even going in to the amount of resources needed to keep the fifth fleet off the coast of Saudi Arabia at port in Bahrain (and that’s interestingly at the same time as the Saudis march in and eradicate the Bahraini people’s attempt at a democratic uprising…).

Yeah, well, I'm not an American citizen, so cannot vote to influence this one way or another....

Look, I understand where you’re coming from: The 10 mpg truck in front of you and the 6 mpg Hummer behind you. You’re absolutely right. The problem is of course much larger. But if I’ve understood you correctly, you (and many others on this board) are confident that you can spend 50-80K on the car you’re going to drive the next three years. 15.000+ (?) people have bought or reserved the Model S and/or X. And many more are eagerly awaiting the Tesla GENIII to boot. And that’s not counting everyone that’s bought (or leased) a Volt, Leaf, Honda EV, RAV4 or Focus EV. Feel free to correct me here, but doesn’t the broad political top down actions that I interpret that you’re asking for implicitly in your last sentences have to come from people like you voicing the need for a political change. And isn’t the personal choice of an EV over an ICE one way to not only personally become part of the solution, but also one way to start to raise such a voice.

Yes, we can all make a difference, I agree completely. My issue is more to do with whether I can currently afford to make that statement based on the model and specification that, if I were to buy a Model S, I'd be happy with.

On a side note: As I understand it, is the 10x pollution of that piece of junk to the side of your current ICE really a part of the bigger problem? Isn’t the big problem with ICE-cars the CO2? Sure the rest of what’s coming out of his exhaust is bad to inhale and acidic, but on the whole of things, isn’t it a relatively minor issue at this point?

In some ways, yes, but my asthmatic kid would disagree.

Maybe the tone in my first post in this thread was a bit too harsh (#39). That was of course not my intention. English is only my second language. My posts in this thread are merely meant as constructive feedback. It would be a real bummer if they were to cause anyone to not choose the Model S as his or her next car.

Your English is dramatically better than my Swedish (it runs to about 1 word - tak!), I took no offence, I genuinely value everyone's option here.
 
On a side note: As I understand it, is the 10x pollution of that piece of junk to the side of your current ICE really a part of the bigger problem? Isn’t the big problem with ICE-cars the CO2? Sure the rest of what’s coming out of his exhaust is bad to inhale and acidic, but on the whole of things, isn’t it a relatively minor issue at this point?

I don't think so. Lung cancer, asthma, and other health problems are all associated with ICE cars--especially diesel. By focusing on CO2, the diesel engine manufacturers hope to move the spotlight away from the serious health problems diesel engines cause.
 
Pete, I'm in a Range Rover now, and I can't wait to get my Model S in the next couple of months...Don't get me wrong, the Range Rover is wonderful, and my wife has her eye on the Evoque or the Range Rover Sport...But I'm guessing that she'll put those thoughts out of her mind and line up for the Model X once she's experienced the S.
 
Thanks, Pete, for your original post. I'm actually in a very similar situation. The version I'm considering is the 40kW version that with options (and after tax rebate) will cost $58K. When I placed my reservation last May for the Model S, I was giving up on one of my dreams which is to buy a BMW or Audi via the European delivery program. But now it's becoming harder for me to justify spending that much money on the 40 kW Model S with such limited range. Now I'm again leaning towards buying an Audi Q5 (which would cost $45K) or BMW X1 ($38K) and using the car during an extended vacation in Europe. Perhaps in 4-5 years I'll feel more comfortable spending big money on a top of the line Model S. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts. My mind is quite pliable right now.
 
Thanks, Pete, for your original post. I'm actually in a very similar situation. The version I'm considering is the 40kW version that with options (and after tax rebate) will cost $58K. When I placed my reservation last May for the Model S, I was giving up on one of my dreams which is to buy a BMW or Audi via the European delivery program. But now it's becoming harder for me to justify spending that much money on the 40 kW Model S with such limited range. Now I'm again leaning towards buying an Audi Q5 (which would cost $45K) or BMW X1 ($38K) and using the car during an extended vacation in Europe. Perhaps in 4-5 years I'll feel more comfortable spending big money on a top of the line Model S. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts. My mind is quite pliable right now.

If you're not comfortable with the Model S purchase, maybe consider a 3 year Volt or other car lease and re-evaluate at the end of that time. Good luck.
 
It's difficult. The first thing I would say is, reading this forum is a double-edged sword, as you get to read a lot more about some of the 'issues' that typical consumers would never get to hear about. For quite a while, that gave me quite a negative view of Tesla (as have some of their more recent decisions). But other threads, from actual owners, 'normal people', even :), reset things a little bit, and provide a more balanced view.

I did test drive the Evoque, and it was 'nice'. That's all. Just nice. Perfectly competent in every way, but nothing special. It certainly had some features that I dearly wish the Model S had (electrically folding mirrors, blind spot warning, 360-camera view, parking sensors - basically everything I've become used to on my current car, aside from he 360 camera). But it was just nice. I know for sure that after a few months, I'd be bored with it, it would just be another car. Which, in a sane, rational world, is all anyone needs. The sales rep hasn't followed up with me, nor would they allow me an extended test drive. He did, at least, know what a Model S was though.

I've not driven the A7 (my other choice). I drive an A5 now, it's essentially a grown-up version of that. I've sat in it, the navigation system was still rubbish, but the interior fit and finish was top-notch. I have no doubt that it would be a good car, with solid residuals. But, for me, still a boring choice. I do not think I'd be satisfied with something that's just an evolution of my current car. That's saying a lot, because I've no complaints about my A5, or my dealer. I get it washed every week by them for free, and get a coke and a donut while I sit there for 20 minutes catching up with emails on my iPad. It's all very nice, very laid back. I've had my share of horrible dealers (Mercedes in the UK stand out, for me, as being overly-stuffy and pretentious), but I've nothing bad to say about DFW Audi. Well, except they can't sell me a car. I've spoken to 3 different reps while waiting for my car to be cleaned, poking around whatever they have on the sales floor. As far as I could tell, not one of them knew who Tesla are, yet alone a Model S. I practically invited them to try and sell the S7 to me, and they didn't bite. I'm all for having unassuming sales people, but come on, at least try when the door is open. Sales people, in any trade, that don't know much about the product they're selling drive me nuts. A Best Buy guy, for example, or Dixons in the UK. Hopeless. Apple? Not Hopeless. I'm not really an Apple fan, but they have a lot of things right when it comes to marketing and sales (obviously!), I hope that Tesla can continue to evolve around their model.

Anyway, back to the point. I'm back on the Telsa Koolaid. Good thing too, it was my birthday a couple of days ago, so now I have more t-shirts and other accessories! I think, mentally, I needed a sanity check after being wrapped up in the launch hype, and the subsequent roller-coaster ride. This thread helped a lot, as did the comparative experiences at Audi and Land Rover. The reason for the timing of all of this is that I assume I'll be asked to lock in my spec within a month or so, and I need to be making some decisions! That's the tricky part. Honestly, I don't think I could ever consider the 40kW, I worry about the residuals, and the range, although it would be fine for 95% of the time for me, would cause me some concerns. So I've 'narrowed' it down to either a 60, 85 or 85P, most likely the non-perf 85kW. I can live without metallic paint, the sunroof I'm no longer sure about, since other threads are reporting squeaks, and I've never had air suspension, so I'm sure I can do without that. I don't drive my cars hard, and there's a cop with a speed trap around every corner here, so I'll rarely get the chance to really make use of the extra power. I like the big wheels, but with the state of the roads around here, they're really not practical, nor is the cost of a set of tires every year. So, all of a sudden, the 60 or 85kW starts to look 'reasonable'. Then I look at the 85P, see the carbon fiber interior, that the wheels and air suspension are included, the leather...that I'm really 'just' paying another $8k for the performance. And that's exactly why Tesla are not quite as bad at marketing as some might think. (communications - maybe, but not Marketing!).

Ultimately, it's just a question of how much I want to finance, and although the numbers are big, they don't give me sleepless nights. The interesting thing is, I'm going to have to lock-in a specification without knowing that I can get the financing needed (especially if I decide on the P85), seeing as the actual delivery is still 6 months away, so I'm not sure how that'll play out.

It's so difficult, especially when it's a huge purchase relative to income or simple the kind of car you're used to. For me, I have to remember that this is a gamble, but it sure is an interesting one. I love the idea that the software will get better and smarter. That there will likely only even be a handful of Model S's around me for a long time (I barely see any A5's - this is Ford F150 country!). That Tesla should thrive and survive. That the Model S is a game-changer - even if Tesla go bust by Christmas, the game has changed. They're trying to do the right thing, and up-end an industry that's incredibly screwed up, conceited, and politically corrupt.
 
Maybe the tone in my first post in this thread was a bit too harsh (#39). That was of course not my intention. English is only my second language. My posts in this thread are merely meant as constructive feedback. It would be a real bummer if they were to cause anyone to not choose the Model S as his or her next car. That post has been updated with ‘disclaimers’.
Hello Claes. You have nothing to worry about communicating utilizing the English language. Your usage is vastly superior to many people which claim English as their only language!
 
It's difficult. The first thing I would say is, reading this forum is a double-edged sword, as you get to read a lot more about some of the 'issues' that typical consumers would never get to hear about. For quite a while, that gave me quite a negative view of Tesla (as have some of their more recent decisions). But other threads, from actual owners, 'normal people', even :), reset things a little bit, and provide a more balanced view.

I did test drive the Evoque, and it was 'nice'. That's all. Just nice. Perfectly competent in every way, but nothing special. It certainly had some features that I dearly wish the Model S had (electrically folding mirrors, blind spot warning, 360-camera view, parking sensors - basically everything I've become used to on my current car, aside from he 360 camera). But it was just nice. I know for sure that after a few months, I'd be bored with it, it would just be another car. Which, in a sane, rational world, is all anyone needs. The sales rep hasn't followed up with me, nor would they allow me an extended test drive. He did, at least, know what a Model S was though.

I've not driven the A7 (my other choice). I drive an A5 now, it's essentially a grown-up version of that. I've sat in it, the navigation system was still rubbish, but the interior fit and finish was top-notch. I have no doubt that it would be a good car, with solid residuals. But, for me, still a boring choice. I do not think I'd be satisfied with something that's just an evolution of my current car. That's saying a lot, because I've no complaints about my A5, or my dealer. I get it washed every week by them for free, and get a coke and a donut while I sit there for 20 minutes catching up with emails on my iPad. It's all very nice, very laid back. I've had my share of horrible dealers (Mercedes in the UK stand out, for me, as being overly-stuffy and pretentious), but I've nothing bad to say about DFW Audi. Well, except they can't sell me a car. I've spoken to 3 different reps while waiting for my car to be cleaned, poking around whatever they have on the sales floor. As far as I could tell, not one of them knew who Tesla are, yet alone a Model S. I practically invited them to try and sell the S7 to me, and they didn't bite. I'm all for having unassuming sales people, but come on, at least try when the door is open. Sales people, in any trade, that don't know much about the product they're selling drive me nuts. A Best Buy guy, for example, or Dixons in the UK. Hopeless. Apple? Not Hopeless. I'm not really an Apple fan, but they have a lot of things right when it comes to marketing and sales (obviously!), I hope that Tesla can continue to evolve around their model.

Anyway, back to the point. I'm back on the Telsa Koolaid. Good thing too, it was my birthday a couple of days ago, so now I have more t-shirts and other accessories! I think, mentally, I needed a sanity check after being wrapped up in the launch hype, and the subsequent roller-coaster ride. This thread helped a lot, as did the comparative experiences at Audi and Land Rover. The reason for the timing of all of this is that I assume I'll be asked to lock in my spec within a month or so, and I need to be making some decisions! That's the tricky part. Honestly, I don't think I could ever consider the 40kW, I worry about the residuals, and the range, although it would be fine for 95% of the time for me, would cause me some concerns. So I've 'narrowed' it down to either a 60, 85 or 85P, most likely the non-perf 85kW. I can live without metallic paint, the sunroof I'm no longer sure about, since other threads are reporting squeaks, and I've never had air suspension, so I'm sure I can do without that. I don't drive my cars hard, and there's a cop with a speed trap around every corner here, so I'll rarely get the chance to really make use of the extra power. I like the big wheels, but with the state of the roads around here, they're really not practical, nor is the cost of a set of tires every year. So, all of a sudden, the 60 or 85kW starts to look 'reasonable'. Then I look at the 85P, see the carbon fiber interior, that the wheels and air suspension are included, the leather...that I'm really 'just' paying another $8k for the performance. And that's exactly why Tesla are not quite as bad at marketing as some might think. (communications - maybe, but not Marketing!).

Ultimately, it's just a question of how much I want to finance, and although the numbers are big, they don't give me sleepless nights. The interesting thing is, I'm going to have to lock-in a specification without knowing that I can get the financing needed (especially if I decide on the P85), seeing as the actual delivery is still 6 months away, so I'm not sure how that'll play out.

It's so difficult, especially when it's a huge purchase relative to income or simple the kind of car you're used to. For me, I have to remember that this is a gamble, but it sure is an interesting one. I love the idea that the software will get better and smarter. That there will likely only even be a handful of Model S's around me for a long time (I barely see any A5's - this is Ford F150 country!). That Tesla should thrive and survive. That the Model S is a game-changer - even if Tesla go bust by Christmas, the game has changed. They're trying to do the right thing, and up-end an industry that's incredibly screwed up, conceited, and politically corrupt.


good comments...

so i initially drank the kool-aid after reading an article online back in january and then reserved a couple days after that. i was so intrigued after watching the videos online of elon describing his view for a car. "why should the car be less advanced than the phone" he said often. he referenced your car knowing where it was and knowing you come out at a certain time from work and cooling to where you want it. i understand that some of these functionalities aren't present currently but i believe, much like apple did, they will evolve and improve. good example - copy and paste on the iphone, yes it took a while but ios6 is amazingly more advanced that the original ios.

my biggest worry was paying 60k+ for a car that only goes 160 miles (and in reality probably closer to 120-140). that to me was a giant stumbling block and i even went and drove an e-class cabriolet. car drove great and everything about it was wonderful with the exception of the navigation system, infotainment and it's ease of use. i have a 2004 acura tl and the infotainment system has a touchscreen and is more advanced than the current high end german cars. for me what drove it home was that issue.

yes, i love the idea that it's electric and all the hoopla that comes with it (instant torque, greener, tax credits, hov/hot access (in GA) etc...) but deep down i am tech guy and am interested in the car because i think it's the most advanced car out there and will be for the foreseeable future IMO. there will be constant updates and will continue to improve. i am willing to either forgive the range in the smaller packs, purchase a higher pack or use it as a car for city driving and using my wife's car for road trips.

i understand every person has different needs but for anyone who is interested in an advanced car as their number 1 priority then it's a no brainer. for the people that are worried about range or pieces that aren't there now or maybe in the future- i.e. adaptive cruise control, electronically folding mirrors, parking sensors, adjustable headrests - then it's a good idea to wait. i think the positives outway the negatives for me.

i talk about the car all the time and people that aren't even interested in the EV aspect find the car "cool, neat, amazing" and are thinking, hey, maybe this is worth a few extra dollars...
 
Pete, your taste in cars is so far off from mine, and your attitude towards finance is so far off from mine -- that I can't give you advice!

I think you may have to decide on your own. I think "Performance" is worth nothing, I dislike the 21" wheels and wouldn't even consider them, etc.
 
pete8314: Great post. Certainly is a lot to think about. Just from my experience so far, the performance is fun but almost too much power for the tires that come with it (not soft enough compared to the Roadster which is good since they'll probably last more than 7,000 miles). The air-suspension is great and have never had a car with it before but also never driven a Model S without it. I think it is a worthwhile option. The pano roof is also really nice, mainly for the extra headroom in the rear, but if that's not a probably and something you think you'll never use that something easy to go without. The 19" are also the more practical and cheaper choice as well and better if you don't need the look of the 21" wheels. The non-performace 85 kWh might be the way to go given the Texas Triangle will have 3 Superchargers in the next 2 years allowing easy travel in those routes. Good luck.
 
Pete, I would not buy the Model S unless: 1) it was the 85kwh battery pack b/c you have to consider eventual battery degradation, non-conservative driving habits and outside temperature and their negative effects on range and 2) I made at least 3-4x the cost of the car or could buy the car without financing b/c the economy is in a tenuous situation and not very stable or able to withstand much geopolitical or financial shock. Income 3-4x the cost of the car should give you enough cushion in case economic badness happens. Maybe I'm too conservative, but conservative in this case is being safe, not sorry. Don't get in over your head on a vehicle that provides no more utility than a Prius (which comes with cup holders for rear seat occupants by the way).

Furthermore, there are still bugs with the Model S since it is a first version - just read Cinergi's blog post about them with more to be found for sure.

To be honest, I would be just as happy, if not more, leasing a Volt for two years, waiting for the bugs to be ironed out in the Model S and Model S 2.0 features to be added on (ie power folding mirrors?), and then buying the Model S in 2014. I am still hoping I do not regret making this version 1.0 purchase lest I be a bad representative for Tesla.
 
I made at least 3-4x the cost of the car or could buy the car without financing b/c the economy is in a tenuous situation and not very stable or able to withstand much geopolitical or financial shock.
Interesting POV; under many "doom-and-gloom" scenarios for the economy, there would be hefty inflation and so being highly leveraged (to buy durable assets) is a good thing. But that POV does assume that you'll continue to be employed and that your income will roughly track inflation.
 
Interesting POV; under many "doom-and-gloom" scenarios for the economy, there would be hefty inflation and so being highly leveraged (to buy durable assets) is a good thing. But that POV does assume that you'll continue to be employed and that your income will roughly track inflation.

I agree with the inflation thing but a Prius or a Volt is a cheaper durable asset that provides the same utility, so tht would seem to be a better buy than Model S. Anyway "asset" is debatable since most cars decrease in value. I guess if Tesla went bankrupt, the Model S's on the road may be worth more than what the owner paid due to their rarity and potential to be a collector's item...