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Repetitive posting and unrestrained complaints

Auzie

Tree Hugger Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,898
37
Sydney
I quite enjoy reading TMC threads. Highlights for me are threads in which the experts in their field contribute their thoughts and experiences.


This morning I came across one of my highlight threads


Dragtime P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video


There was some interesting discussion between few experienced race car drivers that was capturing my interest when suddenly there is a post like this:


P90DL is not yet meeting the Tesla specs
So it sounds like both of you are saying that as many of us feared, the P90D with Ludicrous is not yet meeting the specs Tesla promised. (In other threads some had guessed it wouldn't because the kW didn't seem to be high enough to generate the required HP.)

That post derailed the discussion down the thread and interjected Tesla Motors related customer complaint issue in the thread discussion.


The HP customer complaint issue has been discussed in few threads on the TMC. Repeating the complaint with no restraints on the forum, especially if it is interjected into TMC prime real estate, where race car drivers talk about their car experiences, devalues the forum experience for me.


It is not my place to say what might be a reasonable limit for rehashing the Tesla Motors related complaint on the TMC forum but I am pretty sure that 'infinite' is not a reasonable limit for repeating the same argument to the same audience. It is especially unfortunate when the repetitive complaining rains on a happy TMC member parade. At some point, it may be more constructive and to everyone's benefit to move the issue where it belongs, to Tesla Motors.


There are other instances of posters repeating the same argument over and over, eroding the forum value for others. It might be helpful to have a 'Dog with a bone' thread or 'Dead horse' thread to deal with these polite but repetitive arguments. Or some other creative way of imposing a reasonable limit on unreasonable repetition.


This is my individual feedback on the TMC experience. Others may agree or disagree.
 
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Ugliest1

S85: "Sparky"
Aug 19, 2013
1,401
1,645
Victoria BC Canada
1) I agree
2) No clue how to do it - I.e., how can a mod police cross-thread shenanigans like that, and still have a life?
3) Moderators do a great job! Thank you all mods! (Just taking the opportunity to add thanks - OP was not criticizing mods)
4) I vote for "Flogging a Dead Horse" as the title
5) thanks for bringing it up Auzie
 

Auzie

Tree Hugger Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,898
37
Sydney
Moderators do a great job! Thank you all mods! (Just taking the opportunity to add thanks - OP was not criticizing mods)

Absolutely correct, thanks for pointing that out. My post is in no way directed at moderators, it is directed at repetitive posters who keep repeating the same argument over and over in multiple threads.

No clue how to do it - I.e., how can a mod police cross-thread shenanigans like that, and still have a life?

How to deal with it - great question. This thread is my way of dealing with it, for a lack of a better way. Perhaps others might have some better ideas.
 
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AnOutsider

S532 # XS27
Apr 3, 2009
11,957
200
Well, to answer how to deal with it. In that specific instance I (as the poster) would have posted in one of the threads discussing the disappointment that according to *thread XYZ* it looks like it doesn't live up etc etc.

As a moderator, depending on how entrenched the convo became, I would move that post out to one of the original threads discussing the topic with a signpost in both locations.

As a non-moderator member, I'd suggest reporting the post as soon as you can so that if there IS an action to be taken, we can take it before things spiral too far out of control.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
This morning I came across one of my highlight threads


Dragtime P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video


There was some interesting discussion between few experienced race car drivers that was capturing my interest when suddenly there is a post like this:


P90DL is not yet meeting the Tesla specs


That post derailed the discussion down the thread and interjected Tesla Motors related customer complaint issue in the thread discussion.


The HP customer complaint issue has been discussed in few threads on the TMC. Repeating the complaint with no restraints on the forum, especially if it is interjected into TMC prime real estate, where race car drivers talk about their car experiences, devalues the forum experience for me.

Actually I was the poster, and I take issue with your categorization of my post.

First of all, the P90D with Ludicrous is a different model than the P85D, which is the one that we've been discussing with respect to the missing horsepower. Also, the discussion in that thread was already heading in the direction of "what the heck is going on with this?" I just summarized two recent posts, and wanted to make sure that it was clear that I and others understood what was being said and what that meant.

What you didn't bother to say in your indictment of my post, and your description of how I derailed the thread is that in the ensuing conversation I was one of the people arguing on the Tesla side of things, suggesting that we give Tesla the benefit of the doubt for a while.

This was a post I made in that thread on Friday, 10-2 (bold added):

I know some of you will be shocked to find me arguing on what could be seen as the Tesla side of this, but I think it is entirely possible Tesla just hasn't released the full capabilities of Ludicrous Mode on the P90D's with Ludicrous yet. (I'm not defending that action--just suggesting it as a possibility.)

Tesla kind of has a history of doing stuff like this.

All the P85Ds were released with torque sleep completely not yet enabled. Everyone was wondering what the heck was wrong with the cars' efficiency, because it wasn't close to what was promised. There was a lot of discussion, and wk057 was out doing a side by side video comparison with a P85 when the blog post explaining that torque sleep wasn't enabled yet was published. That was roughly three weeks after deliveries started. It was terrible communication and terrible customer service, for no good reason. A simple explanation at delivery time like, "Oh, just so you know, torque sleep isn't enabled yet, so you won't get the efficiency that you may be expecting, but it's coming soon.", would have completely eliminated the issue. Tesla had to know people would notice. It was just a bad, bad decision on how to handle the engineering delay on Tesla's part.

We know Tesla is lousy at this kind of communication. Lousy is an understatement. They're terrible at it!

I believe many people think Tesla also likes to test things in small batches, and in small increments when pushing the limits. It would be reasonable, then, to think that perhaps a few cars are fully enabled with Ludicrous capabilities, while most are not. Or maybe none are yet. But it would be completely consistent with how Tesla operates to deliver Ludicrous cars that aren't really fully Ludicrous yet, and not say a word about it.

I am optimistic that P90Ds with Ludicrous will get into the 10s in the quarter mile eventually, as a result of software updates.

And this was one I made on Saturday, 10-3 (bold added):

I definitely trust Fiks' work as well. I'm being optimistic, and giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt for now, but you guys could definitely be correct, and I could definitely be wrong. All I'm suggesting is that since it looks like the car isn't yet putting out the kW to make the HP (based on Pete's data) it is possible Tesla isn't yet allowing the car to get close to the 1500 Amp limit of the fuse. If that's true, and they increase that limit via software, and the kW output goes up significantly, then perhaps 10.9 can be achieved.

I don't think Tesla would intentionally mislead us, in spite of what you think I think on the 691 HP issue. They must have some justification for publishing the 10.9 second quarter mile time. I want to trust them.

Again, I may be wrong, and you may be right. But I'm pretty sure we can at least agree on the fact that on this one we both hope my optimism winds up being justified.


You may well have a valid issue to discuss concerning people posting about their pet issues in various threads, but you chose a poor example to use to illustrate your point. I was connecting a known issue with one model to a completely different model, for the first time, and was just summarizing what others were already saying. The thread was heading in the direction it went with or without me, and I wound up arguing on basically the pro-Tesla side.

I'd suggest finding a better example if you want to win people over to your way of thinking.
 

Auzie

Tree Hugger Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,898
37
Sydney
Actually I was the poster, and I take issue with your categorization of my post.

First of all, the P90D with Ludicrous is a different model than the P85D, which is the one that we've been discussing with respect to the missing horsepower. Also, the discussion in that thread was already heading in the direction of "what the heck is going on with this?" I just summarized two recent posts and wanted to make sure that it was clear that I and others understood what was being said and what that meant.

What you didn't bother to say in your indictment of my post, and your description of how I derailed the thread is that in the ensuing conversation I was one of the people arguing on the Tesla side of things, suggesting that we give Tesla the benefit of the doubt for a while.

This was a post I made in that thread on Friday, 10-2 (bold added):

And this was one I made on Saturday, 10-3 (bold added):

You may well have a valid issue to discuss concerning people posting about their pet issues in various threads, but you chose a poor example to use to illustrate your point. I was connecting a known issue with one model to a completely different model, for the first time, and was just summarizing what others were already saying. The thread was heading in the direction it went with or without me, and I wound up arguing on basically the pro-Tesla side.

I'd suggest finding a better example if you want to win people over to your way of thinking.

Andy


I am not trying to win anyone over with my post, this one or any other post. I am stating my own personal feedback on the forum experience.


I did not take issue with your support or the lack of support for Tesla, that is irrelevant to my post. I strongly disagree with a view that people taking a different position on a particular topic do so in order to support or not support Tesla. My forum experience is that most members speak their minds from very informed positions regardless of how it affects Tesla.


This thread is about repeating the same arguments and complaining without restraints.


My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that. Many members extremely knowledgeable on the subject have repeatedly disputed such claims on the forum. I prefer not to discuss the merits of these claims in this thread, it has been discussed elsewhere.


I am really really really sorry that you feel wronged by Tesla. It is safe to assume that most forum members are sorry about that too. My view is that Tesla did fail you and other customers by failing to provide sufficient product information in a more proactive way. Customers need to make informed purchase decisions or they might feel wronged. Trying to catch up once people form their opinions and (mis)understandings is a losing battle for all. I also think that they did what they did because they are learning as they go.


It is almost certain that Tesla itself would do many things differently with hindsight if only they could. It is certain to me that you gave Tesla a lesson about their (non) communication that they will not forget and that lesson will set a better stage for future customers. I bet that many Tesla employees lost a lot of sleep because of having customers that feel the way you do. I also feel that at some point it becomes destructive to keep repeating the same negative sentiment over and over to the same audience.


Repeating negative statements with no restraint affects some other forum members, myself included. It sets the forum tone to what it is now. It rains on other people's parade.


Repeating these statements frequently in many threads on the forum comes across to me as an attempt to use the TMC forum as the publicity leverage against Tesla. That is my impression and, of course, I could easily be wrong, only you know why you keep repeating it here.


If you feel wronged, and you made it clear that you do, one option could be to move on in a way that works for you rather than keep repeating your arguments here. Another option is to do whatever you wish. Whatever you do I hope it works for you.
 
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Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
Andy


I am not trying to win anyone over with my post, this one or any other post. I am stating my own personal feedback on the forum experience.


I did not take issue with your support or the lack of support for Tesla, that is irrelevant to my post. I strongly disagree with a view that people taking a different position on a particular topic do so in order to support or not support Tesla. My forum experience is that most members speak their minds from very informed positions regardless of how it affects Tesla.


This thread is about repeating the same arguments and complaining without restraints.


My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that. Many members extremely knowledgeable on the subject have repeatedly disputed such claims on the forum. I prefer not to discuss the merits of these claims in this thread, it has been discussed elsewhere.


I am really really really sorry that you feel wronged by Tesla. It is safe to assume that most forum members are sorry about that too. My view is that Tesla did fail you and other customers by failing to provide sufficient product information in a more proactive way. Customers need to make informed purchase decisions or they might feel wronged. Trying to catch up once people form their opinions and (mis)understandings is a losing battle for all. I also think that they did what they did because they are learning as they go.


It is almost certain that Tesla itself would do many things differently with hindsight if only they could. It is certain to me that you gave Tesla a lesson about their (non) communication that they will not forget and that lesson will set a better stage for future customers. I bet that many Tesla employees lost a lot of sleep because of having customers that feel the way you do. I also feel that at some point it becomes destructive to keep repeating the same negative sentiment over and over to the same audience.


Repeating negative statements with no restraint affects some other forum members, myself included. It sets the forum tone to what it is now. It rains on other people's parade.


Repeating these statements frequently in many threads on the forum comes across to me as an attempt to use the TMC forum as the publicity leverage against Tesla. That is my impression and, of course, I could easily be wrong, only you know why you keep repeating it here.


If you feel wronged, and you made it clear that you do, one option could be to move on in a way that works for you rather than keep repeating your arguments here. Another option is to do whatever you wish. Whatever you do I hope it works for you.

You seem to have entirely missed my point, which was that I was NOT repeating the same argument, for two main reasons. One was that this was a different car, and this was the first time people were beginning to reach the conclusions about this model that had already been reached about the P85D. The other is that I WAS ARGUING ON THE TESLA SIDE! How is that repeating the same argument? I feel that in light of how vocal I have been about the P85D issue, I should make my feelings known when I wish to be supportive of Tesla too. It's only fair.
 

Krugerrand

Enough of the 🐩, back to 🐈‍⬛
Jul 13, 2012
11,049
56,355
Tesla friendly place
You seem to have entirely missed my point, which was that I was NOT repeating the same argument, for two main reasons. One was that this was a different car, and this was the first time people were beginning to reach the conclusions about this model that had already been reached about the P85D. The other is that I WAS ARGUING ON THE TESLA SIDE! How is that repeating the same argument? I feel that in light of how vocal I have been about the P85D issue, I should make my feelings known when I wish to be supportive of Tesla too. It's only fair.

She said: I did not take issue with your support or the lack of support for Tesla, that is irrelevant to my post.

And: My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that.

I believe both of those statements clarify her issues and that you are the one missing her point, not the other way around.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
She said: I did not take issue with your support or the lack of support for Tesla, that is irrelevant to my post.

And: My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that.

I believe both of those statements clarify her issues and that you are the one missing her point, not the other way around.

Then you are mistaken.

Those statements clarify nothing, and do nothing to invalidate my response or indicate that I misunderstood her.

Her next line after the paragraph including the first one you quoted, was, "This thread is about repeating the same arguments and complaining without restraints." Here it is, in context, along with her other quote you chose to use:

I did not take issue with your support or the lack of support for Tesla, that is irrelevant to my post. I strongly disagree with a view that people taking a different position on a particular topic do so in order to support or not support Tesla. My forum experience is that most members speak their minds from very informed positions regardless of how it affects Tesla.


This thread is about repeating the same arguments and complaining without restraints.


My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that.

"Repeating the same arguments." What part of the fact that the P90D is a different car, so the argument can't be the same, are you not understanding?

How is it that you are having difficulty comprehending that if someone normally argues against Tesla, that when they are arguing in favor Tesla that is not "repeating the same arguments?"

The thing is, I don't think you are having any difficulty with any of this. I think you just like to stir things up, and whenever it is at all possible, you will take any and every opportunity to attempt to denigrate forum members who have ever taken what you consider to be an anti-Tesla view. Frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

And yes, mods, I understand that the tone of this post may be a little less than collegial. I am trying to be careful not to cross any lines, but this poster has a history of doing this, and I feel the need to be able to express my displeasure. I believe I am doing it politely.

Continuing on, Krugerrand, you used Aussie's quote about my "repeating things like missing power...even in your post here." I made no attempt to bring up the issue in this thread, as is crystal clear to anyone reading this thread. I was describing the issue that was being discussed. How would you have me refer to the issue? The way I referred to is is the way pretty much everyone on TMC refers to it. Would you prefer that it become the issue that can't be named, like Voldemort in "Harry Potter?" I made absolutely no effort to discuss the issue itself in this thread.

Aussie, on the other hand, did the following, which I let pass, without comment, until now. She wrote:

I prefer not to discuss the merits of these claims in this thread, it has been discussed elsewhere.


I am really really really sorry that you feel wronged by Tesla. It is safe to assume that most forum members are sorry about that too. My view is that Tesla did fail you and other customers by failing to provide sufficient product information in a more proactive way. Customers need to make informed purchase decisions or they might feel wronged. Trying to catch up once people form their opinions and (mis)understandings is a losing battle for all. I also think that they did what they did because they are learning as they go.


It is almost certain that Tesla itself would do many things differently with hindsight if only they could. It is certain to me that you gave Tesla a lesson about their (non) communication that they will not forget and that lesson will set a better stage for future customers. I bet that many Tesla employees lost a lot of sleep because of having customers that feel the way you do. I also feel that at some point it becomes destructive to keep repeating the same negative sentiment over and over to the same audience.

She wrote that she didn't want to discuss the merits, but then went on to immediately start discussing them. I chose not to mention that, and not to discuss the issue at all, because I was attempting to allow this thread to stay on topic, even though the OP herself was taking it off topic.

I have repeatedly attempted to take the high road, but I'm also not going to sit back and allow things to be said about me that are not true.



 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
I don't think I am. I think you're talking past her because you're upset she referenced your post specifically. I believe this is when we agree to disagree.

I don't see how I am talking past her.

I understand what you said about her saying she doesn't care which side I take, and that that is irrelevant. My point is that it is not irrelevant since her next point was that she called out my post because of repetitive posting, and the fact that I was arguing on the opposite side from what she would consider the repetitive side means by definition my post was not repetitive. The arguments themselves may not be relevant to Aussie, but the fact that the arguments are on opposite sides is relevant to my point that they are not repetitive.
 

Eclectic

Member
Nov 8, 2014
773
920
Montana
I don't see how I am talking past her.

I understand what you said about her saying she doesn't care which side I take, and that that is irrelevant. My point is that it is not irrelevant since her next point was that she called out my post because of repetitive posting, and the fact that I was arguing on the opposite side from what she would consider the repetitive side means by definition my post was not repetitive. The arguments themselves may not be relevant to Aussie, but the fact that the arguments are on opposite sides is relevant to my point that they are not repetitive.

What ever happened to just reading past things that you don't want to respond to? A forum is going to have messy channels of communication. Read and respond to that which you are interested in, ignore that which you find annoying, off topic, distracting, etc. It works magnificently.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
One can be repetitive in content (Auzie's point) regardless of which side one is arguing for or against.

But that wasn't her point.

She wrote: "My issue is that you keep repeating things like 'missing power', 'not meeting specs', even in your post here, and I take issue with that. Many members extremely knowledgeable on the subject have repeatedly disputed such claims on the forum. I prefer not to discuss the merits of these claims in this thread, it has been discussed elsewhere. "

Clearly she was saying that I kept arguing one side of it, and it was that she was taking issue with--the repetitiveness of that. If it was both sides of the same issue she was arguing against, she would not have followed up with the point about "Many members extremely knowledgeable on the subject have repeatedly disputed such claims on the forum."
 

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