Replace 6-30 Outlet with 14-30 (without Neutral Connected)

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I decided to go for the wall connector. I realized it protruding out shouldn’t be a problem because there is a knee wall.

I may or may not add the switch to switch between heater and EV. Just adds one more point of failure. I definitely would if I used the heater more often than once a year, if that. I know code/inspector doesn’t care about frequency of use or how “careful” I think I will be.

 

[eprosenx]

Good suggestion

I think this would be more appropriate though.

Leviton 30 Amp Industrial Grade Heavy Duty Double-Pole Double-Throw Center-Off Momentary Contact Toggle Switch, Brown-1262 - The Home Depot

By the way, I would bet the rule of the EV shall be in “dedicated” circuit would still be technically broken. Even with the switch.

I forgot that they made 30a rated light switches! That might be a relatively compact way to transfer the power between the two devices.

Note though that the switch linked I think might be spring loaded. The “momentary contact” bit is what concerns me. We have had lighting controls systems at my office that work that way.

I don’t think anyone should have issues with the dedicated circuit aspect if you have a transfer switch between the two devices.

You point of additional points of failure is true though. If using one of those super industrial knife switch style transfer boxes I would have no concerns, however, if using a light switch style setup I would be more concerned since the chances of of loose connector is higher and it has less area to dissipate heat if there is any marginal connection.

 

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I forgot that they made 30a rated light switches! That might be a relatively compact way to transfer the power between the two devices.

Note though that the switch linked I think might be spring loaded. The “momentary contact” bit is what concerns me. We have had lighting controls systems at my office that work that way.

I don’t think anyone should have issues with the dedicated circuit aspect if you have a transfer switch between the two devices.

You point of additional points of failure is true though. If using one of those super industrial knife switch style transfer boxes I would have no concerns, however, if using a light switch style setup I would be more concerned since the chances of of loose connector is higher and it has less area to dissipate heat if there is any marginal connection.

Your right that one might not be right one. But it would be odd to have a momentary 30A switch. I can’t think of an application that would need that.

I think they do make the correct one though.

 

[eprosenx]

Your right that one might not be right one. But it would be odd to have a momentary 30A switch. I can’t think of an application that would need that.

I think they do make the correct one though.

Maybe it is intended for a motor hoist or something? Up / down controls on a 240v motor?

I am sure you are right that someone will make the right thing...

 

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All Installed, including a "A/B" DPDT 30A switch.

Turns out I had to put in an exposed box to tap the line any way. So I might as well put it on the wall and throw a switch in it.

Here is the correct switch.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003AUPTP8

 

[eprosenx]

All Installed, including a "A/B" DPDT 30A switch.

Turns out I had to put in an exposed box to tap the line any way. So I might as well put it on the wall and throw a switch in it.

Here is the correct switch.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003AUPTP8

Awesome! Can we see pictures?

 

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Awesome! Can we see pictures?

I don’t have the switch yet nor the wall connector. But the bulk of the work is done.

I forgot to mention one more thing regarding your large load over night post. There is one other thing unique to EV circuits. It will use the FULL capacity of that circuit. All 80% for hours. Not many appliances would do that. Like even though range is on say 50 Amp circuit. It would rarely if ever pull 40 Amps. It’s rated at worst case. Every burner on high and stove on. And even then it probably would pull it’s max very long once up to temp.

EV is most at peak load for hours.

I did double check my panel for another circuit. The breaker for surge isn’t as spare as I thought. It’s also used as part of the whole house power usage doo-dad. There is no real load on that breaker. But it shouldn’t be over 20A. I don’t want the surge on an AFCI or GFCI. But it could sit on a 30A for EV.

Here is the pic you wanted earlier.

Even though it’s full we use a fraction of the 100 Amps. I just looked through power history for one year. The highest peak was 5000 watts.

 

[eprosenx]

I don’t have the switch yet nor the wall connector. But the bulk of the work is done.

I forgot to mention one more thing regarding your large load over night post. There is one other thing unique to EV circuits. It will use the FULL capacity of that circuit. All 80% for hours. Not many appliances would do that. Like even though range is on say 50 Amp circuit. It would rarely if ever pull 40 Amps. It’s rated at worst case. Every burner on high and stove on. And even then it probably would pull it’s max very long once up to temp.

EV is most at peak load for hours.

I did double check my panel for another circuit. The breaker for surge isn’t as spare as I thought. It’s also used as part of the whole house power usage doo-dad. There is no real load on that breaker. But it shouldn’t be over 20A. I don’t want the surge on an AFCI or GFCI. But it could sit on a 30A for EV.

Here is the pic you wanted earlier.

Even though it’s full we use a fraction of the 100 Amps. I just looked through power history for one year. The highest peak was 5000 watts.

Yup! Exactly. The car will basically draw just about any circuit at its max load (or rather 80% of max).

In general you are right about the range, although I don't think they are considered continuous loads, so they are allowed to take a 40a circuit all the way to 40a (100%), where an EVSE can only take it to 32a (due to continuous load), but yes, EXACTLY! Heavily loaded circuits run closer to the margins. You nearly never ever use all burners and the oven at the same time...

You have a pretty panel btw. Whoever did the work did a nice job. ;-)

Is a 20a breaker sufficient ampacity to allow the surge protector to shunt a transient to ground and blow the main 100a breaker? I thought they were usually on larger breakers than that? (maybe not, I am not sure)

So I wanted to see the specs sticker on your panel in order to figure out if it can support Tandems in any position. If it can, you could use something like this which gives you a 50a 240v breaker and a 20a 240v breaker. So you could put the Tesla charger on a 50a circuit and still keep the 20a circuit for the current loads and the heater on its own 30a.

Eaton BR 1-20 Amp 2 Pole and 1-50 Amp 2 Pole BQ (Independent Trip) Quad Circuit Breaker-BQ220250 - The Home Depot

(note that I think you have a Murray panel? - but I think the Eaton breaker linked above is probably cross-rated for use in the Murray panel - but you get the idea - Murray may have their own version of that breaker - your existing 20a breaker is an Eaton already)

Also, I still am amazed at the number of AFCI/GFCI breakers in that panel! Wow! I have never seen that many. ;-) I guess that is the future where everything is headed...

P.S. Sounds like you have PLENTY of capacity (based on your usage #'s) if you did want to upgrade the capacity of your Wall Connector to something greater than a 30a circuit (24a continuous to the car).

 

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You have a pretty panel btw. Whoever did the work did a nice job. ;-)

I know, I did it

It is a Murray.

Panels coming in the near future will have Neutral bar down the center. And all breakers will clip to hot and neutral. And the hot and neutral will connect to the breaker (like GFCI does but no neutral lead from breaker).

I like the way GFCI and AFCI wire in, with the pair going to the breaker. It was easy to a apply a consistent pattern because they all tied in the same way. That is partly why the panel looks tidy. I simulated a future panel.

 

[eprosenx]

Oh also, what size are your main wire feeds to that panel?

They look pretty tiny and they are aluminum so less capacity than copper!

I wonder if they applied the 83% derate rule since that service covers the entire house... There is some weird NEC rule that lets you undersize the main conductors in residences by like 17%...

 

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I lied I decided to go for the 14-30 Outlet (for now). This just felt the closest to "Code" (even though it technically does not).
The is the safest/cheapest setup for me right now.
I need to setup 2 houses and my car I'm selling for new Tesla is already listed $2000 below what I thought I could get, ugh.

To meet code all I would have to do is remove the 14-30 and install a 6-30 and it's just a switch between two 6-30 outlets (not Necessarily EV). Once I hard wire wall connector it should be a dedicated circuit. And I switch might not make it legal (might depend on inspector).
I could use an illegal 6-30 to 14-30 adapter with no temp sensors or make/buy a hacked Tesla adapter which would also possibly remove the temp sensor. I'm assured I have a temp sensor if I use the 14-30 outlet with unmodified 14-30 Tesla Adapter with no additional adapters.

I may keep an eye out for a used UMC (or 2). I'm in no rush.

I also attached panel specs and wire size for main feed (XHHW-2).

 

[eprosenx]

I lied I decided to go for the 14-30 Outlet (for now). This just felt the closest to "Code" (even though it technically does not).
The is the safest/cheapest setup for me right now.
I need to setup 2 houses and my car I'm selling for new Tesla is already listed $2000 below what I thought I could get, ugh.

To meet code all I would have to do is remove the 14-30 and install a 6-30 and it's just a switch between two 6-30 outlets (not Necessarily EV). Once I hard wire wall connector it should be a dedicated circuit. And I switch might not make it legal (might depend on inspector).
I could use an illegal 6-30 to 14-30 adapter with no temp sensors or make/buy a hacked Tesla adapter which would also possibly remove the temp sensor. I'm assured I have a temp sensor if I use the 14-30 outlet with unmodified 14-30 Tesla Adapter with no additional adapters.

I may keep an eye out for a used UMC (or 2). I'm in no rush.

I also attached panel specs and wire size for main feed (XHHW-2).

Nice! Looks pretty! I think you have optimized well for the conditions you had in front of you. I think this will be safe for your use case as long as you keep anything else from using that outlet. I would recommend very clear labeling warning about the fact it has no neutral.

Thanks for the breaker pics. The bottom five positions on both sides are rated for “tandem” breakers so you could double up that surge breaker.

Can you tell what gauge the main feed wire is? Good to know it is XHHW.

 

[eprosenx]

I lied I decided to go for the 14-30 Outlet (for now). This just felt the closest to "Code" (even though it technically does not).
The is the safest/cheapest setup for me right now.
I need to setup 2 houses and my car I'm selling for new Tesla is already listed $2000 below what I thought I could get, ugh.

To meet code all I would have to do is remove the 14-30 and install a 6-30 and it's just a switch between two 6-30 outlets (not Necessarily EV). Once I hard wire wall connector it should be a dedicated circuit. And I switch might not make it legal (might depend on inspector).
I could use an illegal 6-30 to 14-30 adapter with no temp sensors or make/buy a hacked Tesla adapter which would also possibly remove the temp sensor. I'm assured I have a temp sensor if I use the 14-30 outlet with unmodified 14-30 Tesla Adapter with no additional adapters.

I may keep an eye out for a used UMC (or 2). I'm in no rush.

I also attached panel specs and wire size for main feed (XHHW-2).

Btw, I get how it is hard to justify a Wall Connector when you don’t get all the benefits (like a higher charging rate), and you don’t have an outside install.

I also wanted to call out that at least 14-50 receptacles generally get put in double wide electrical boxes. Not sure if they are kosher in single wide boxes wire fill wise.

Technically you are probably supposed to have a GFCI breaker on this circuit but yeah, as discussed, I would have zero issues not having one in a garage like this.

Note that you can also use a gen one UMC on a Model 3 without issue. So if you end up with a 14-50 at your other location you could use one there and it would give you a full 40a of charging on a 50a circuit.

Hah, you know, thinking outside the box you also could have done something like this: (but you might want a spare J-1772 adapter to go with it)

24A Level 2 EVSE LCS-30P with NEMA L6-30 | ClipperCreek

Though other than the lack of a 6-30 or L6-30 receptacle adapter on the UMC Gen 2, the UMC is a fantastic deal in comparison. (So is the wall connector)

 

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Btw, I get how it is hard to justify a Wall Connector when you don’t get all the benefits (like a higher charging rate), and you don’t have an outside install.

I also wanted to call out that at least 14-50 receptacles generally get put in double wide electrical boxes. Not sure if they are kosher in single wide boxes wire fill wise.

Technically you are probably supposed to have a GFCI breaker on this circuit but yeah, as discussed, I would have zero issues not having one in a garage like this.

Note that you can also use a gen one UMC on a Model 3 without issue. So if you end up with a 14-50 at your other location you could use one there and it would give you a full 40a of charging on a 50a circuit.

Hah, you know, thinking outside the box you also could have done something like this: (but you might want a spare J-1772 adapter to go with it)

24A Level 2 EVSE LCS-30P with NEMA L6-30 | ClipperCreek

Though other than the lack of a 6-30 or L6-30 receptacle adapter on the UMC Gen 2, the UMC is a fantastic deal in comparison. (So is the wall connector)

It has GFCI on it. It's easy to fit 14-30 with no Neutral
If anything isn't kosher it's three 10-2's in the switch box. I might replace that box with double wide.

 

[eprosenx]

It has GFCI on it. It's easy to fit 14-30 with no Neutral
If anything isn't kosher it's three 10-2's in the switch box. I might replace that box with double wide.

Ohhhh... I assumed that breaker for the heater was just AFCI. Is it a combo AFCI/GFCI? Or just GFCI. My bad. ;-)

So yeah, I think the difficulty of a 14-50 in a small box is the (typically) 6awg conductors (3x + ground). With a 14-30 that only has hot, hot, ground (and like only 10 AWG) I see how that would not be too bad. ;-)

That switch is pretty cool btw. Neat solution! It might actually be a good solution for a lot of folks instead of a Dryer Buddy... It is a cost effective way to toggle which load is on. I wonder if they sell a version without the middle "off" position. That seems un-necessary. (but I guess it does not hurt anything)

 

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Ohhhh... I assumed that breaker for the heater was just AFCI. Is it a combo AFCI/GFCI? Or just GFCI. My bad. ;-)

So yeah, I think the difficulty of a 14-50 in a small box is the (typically) 6awg conductors (3x + ground). With a 14-30 that only has hot, hot, ground (and like only 10 AWG) I see how that would not be too bad. ;-)

That switch is pretty cool btw. Neat solution! It might actually be a good solution for a lot of folks instead of a Dryer Buddy... It is a cost effective way to toggle which load is on. I wonder if they sell a version without the middle "off" position. That seems un-necessary. (but I guess it does not hurt anything)

Yeah, I couldn’t find one without the center Off. Switch was like $57.00 though. Very odd pattern on the back too.

It’s GFCI only.

 

[miimura]

What are the applicable rules for using Romex in an exposed un-finished space like the garage pictured above? I would have been inclined to use armored cable and metal boxes if I knew it was going to remain exposed.

 

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What are the applicable rules for using Romex in an exposed un-finished space like the garage pictured above? I would have been inclined to use armored cable and metal boxes if I knew it was going to remain exposed.

It’s intended to get finished with dry wall.
I think the Romex is ok but the box would not be. I used that style box because I plan to finish it.

I’m glad I hadn’t finished it yet. Procrastinating pays off once again.

 

[eprosenx]

What are the applicable rules for using Romex in an exposed un-finished space like the garage pictured above? I would have been inclined to use armored cable and metal boxes if I knew it was going to remain exposed.

There are explicit rules about this in the code article regarding NM cable (romex). I forget the article number off the top of my head. I will go look it up later and post it.

Basically I think it is allowed but with restrictions (so it is protected and specifically so folks don’t hang things from it)

But yeah, in his case it is moot since the wall will be insulated and covered so it is totally legal.

 

[eprosenx]

There are explicit rules about this in the code article regarding NM cable (romex). I forget the article number off the top of my head. I will go look it up later and post it.

Basically I think it is allowed but with restrictions (so it is protected and specifically so folks don’t hang things from it)

But yeah, in his case it is moot since the wall will be insulated and covered so it is totally legal.

Article 334 covers NM cable. I thought there were specific rules around running it through unfinished stud walls (so people did not use it to hang things from, etc...) but I am not finding them. I may have read something that referred to "rules" that local AHJ's (authorities having jurisdiction) called out as their interpretation of protection requirements in article 334, but for the life of me I can't find anything in 2017 NEC. ;-)