Replace 6-30 Outlet with 14-30 (without Neutral Connected)

[eladts]

There is no such thing as close to code. You are either compliant or you are not. Installing NEMA 14-30 without a neutral line is not. Also, there are inexpensive alternatives. The EVSEadapters 6-30 to UMC v2 adapter costs $75, which is $40 more than the Tesla 14-30 adapter.

 

[eprosenx]

There is no such thing as close to code. You are either compliant or you are not. Installing NEMA 14-30 without a neutral line is not. Also, there are inexpensive alternatives. The EVSEadapters 6-30 to UMC v2 adapter costs $75, which is $40 more than the Tesla 14-30 adapter.

We discussed that at length. The issue is that the 3rd party adapter likely has no thermal sensor in the end of the wire and so it defeats an important safety feature of the UMC by going that route.

I am sure that the 3rd party adapters are also not UL listed as well.

So while the solution implemented would be dangerous if a future occupant connected a non-EV to the receptacle, for the current owner using it for his Tesla this was the safest thing he could come up with short of buying a wall connector.

 

[eladts]

The issue is that the 3rd party adapter likely has no thermal sensor in the end of the wire and so it defeats an important safety feature of the UMC by going that route.

Well, that's easy to check. Just buy an adapter, open it and see if it has the temperature sensor or not.

 

[mswlogo]

Deja-Vu

Second charging location might require a Wall Connector.

I forgot, I have no garage at this second location. The access will be under a covered porch.

The Panel is just as Full, if not worse.

It is 150 Amp Service. But it has a Electric Range and Electric Dryer.

Also the top 4 breaker slots were damaged a long time ago. I forget the detail but I could not get breakers to have good contact.
I cleaned and polished them but I gave up, it was to risky to try salvaging those slots. I really didn't want to replace panel and I will some day.

So I put a Twins in every slot I could and moved everything down. This has worked great and a quick and dirty fix. Been stable for 10 years. But there is no room.

So I also have a 30 Amp electric heater here too. But in this case it's a back up heater in case the Oil Furnace doesn't fire up.
Furnace has never failed or electric had to come on in 15 years.

So I'm gonna tap this circuit again. But this time no A/B switch. But I might still put a box so one could be added later.

The reason is, if I left the switch on EV and forgot to put it back to the heater, it would be the one time the furnace doesn't fire up.
So I'm gonna wire it in parallel.

Since access is outdoors I'm not thrilled with having a 14-30 outdoors even in a waterproof box under a covered porch. Eventually I don't want to have to take the UMC out of the car each time. So it needs it's own UMC or Wall Connector. Since it's outdoors UMC isn't such a great idea leaving UMC outdoors forever. Wall Connector is design for outdoors.

One other problem is, I might barely use it. This is the only location that will cost me real money. I have excess solar capacity that I'm not using (Electric Company will credit kilowatts but not cash). There is a SuperCharger within 30 min North, West and South. The South one we go past on the way there and back and I always plan to top off there. My guess is the only time I'll want to charge at the new location is when the SuperCharger is full and I don't feel like waiting.

I'll post pics as I proceed for others.

I used 14-30 setup at home in garage last night for the first time. Everything worked just fine. Ordered UMC Bracket and Charge Handle Holder/Cable Organizer.

 

[eprosenx]

Deja-Vu

Second charging location might require a Wall Connector.

I forgot, I have no garage at this second location. The access will be under a covered porch.

The Panel is just as Full, if not worse.

It is 150 Amp Service. But it has a Electric Range and Electric Dryer.

Also the top 4 breaker slots were damaged a long time ago. I forget the detail but I could not get breakers to have good contact.
I cleaned and polished them but I gave up, it was to risky to try salvaging those slots. I really didn't want to replace panel and I will some day.

So I put a Twins in every slot I could and moved everything down. This has worked great and a quick and dirty fix. Been stable for 10 years. But there is no room.

So I also have a 30 Amp electric heater here too. But in this case it's a back up heater in case the Oil Furnace doesn't fire up.
Furnace has never failed or electric had to come on in 15 years.

So I'm gonna tap this circuit again. But this time no A/B switch. But I might still put a box so one could be added later.

The reason is, if I left the switch on EV and forgot to put it back to the heater, it would be the one time the furnace doesn't fire up.
So I'm gonna wire it in parallel.

Since access is outdoors I'm not thrilled with having a 14-30 outdoors even in a waterproof box under a covered porch. Eventually I don't want to have to take the UMC out of the car each time. So it needs it's own UMC or Wall Connector. Since it's outdoors UMC isn't such a great idea leaving UMC outdoors forever. Wall Connector is design for outdoors.

One other problem is, I might barely use it. This is the only location that will cost me real money. I have excess solar capacity that I'm not using (Electric Company will credit kilowatts but not cash). There is a SuperCharger within 30 min North, West and South. The South one we go past on the way there and back and I always plan to top off there. My guess is the only time I'll want to charge at the new location is when the SuperCharger is full and I don't feel like waiting.

I'll post pics as I proceed for others.

I used 14-30 setup at home in garage last night for the first time. Everything worked just fine. Ordered UMC Bracket and Charge Handle Holder/Cable Organizer.

Yes! Pictures would be good. I am curious what your main feed size is (want to make sure of the ampacity of the feed wires separate from what the main breaker capacity itself is).

I wonder if we could find you a replacement bus for your existing panel that would give you the option of using those top slots again. I am concerned that whatever is causing bad contact on those breaker spots could also be an issue on other breaker spots?

My plan for vacation homes I stop at occasionally (family members places) is to install 14-50's or similar and then just plug in when I get there. If I owned the place and went there often I would consider a Wall Connector (especially if outdoors like yours is). I personally never want to have to stop along my route - I value my time and like the flexibility of just being able to drive direct. Charging at my start point or destination causes me to never have to "wait" for my car - which is a desired feature for me. Also, don't the Superchargers cost you money to use?

Putting the Wall Connector on the same circuit as the heater is certainly not to code. At that point you are relying on the breaker to function if the heater kicked on at the same time as the car. I guess an option could be an auto-switching mechanism that had priority like perhaps the Dryer Buddy?

If you have the overall service capacity to support it, if there is ANY way to add a dedicated circuit that would be vastly preferred.

Also, if you are concerned about the UMC in the covered parking spot and you had enough space in the panel for a regular size GFCI breaker then I would go with that. Having a GFCI in a spot that could possibly be wet when plugging or unplugging the UMC seems like a good idea (also it is a code requirement now per NEC 625 in 2017 code - even in dry locations).

 

[mswlogo]

I would put a GFCI on anything outside no matter what. Probably will even with Wall Charger.
I'll check out the dryer buddy thing. That might be more work than just fixing the panel.
I'm not worried about capacity of the Panel (if those 4 slots were available).

Right now that whole house is pulling 120 watts. Fridge is the biggest consumer. Average use is 250 kwh a month.

I think I looked into a new buss, by buying the same box and taking it out. That was 10 years ago and I forget why I gave up.
Maybe because the shifting trick worked and I wasn't worried about the future. House is completely finished including the cellar.
I don't like the idea of leaving UMC outdoors. And also keeping it water 14-30 water tight while something is plugged in. Even though it's under a covered porch, I treat it as if it's not.

If Supercharge wasn't free I'd charge more at destination. We tend to eat on the way up any way.
And there is nice restaurant(s) at the SuperCharger. This was all researched before I bought the car.
We would normally take the Jeep. Now we'll take the Model 3. The Jeep going up was the bulk of our gas consumption.
I'm hoping we'll go from $2000/yr for gas to $500/yr without much change in habits.

The Heater is right near the Service Panel. So I will leave enough wire to go straight to panel.
Actually maybe I'll just bring it to the panel and double up on the breaker (for now).
I also might run larger wire (also not quite to code) so I can upgrade to a larger circuit when ever I resolve the panel. 30 amp is plenty though.

Oh, I could put a switch with the dryer too. But that would be annoying since we use that all the time.

House was built in 1996. Siemens 150 Amp Panel.

 

[mswlogo]

I just did a quick search.

This could be the panel. If it is, maybe I will repair it.

Siemens ES Series 150 Amp 30-Space 30-Circuit Main Breaker Load Center-S3030B1150 - The Home Depot

 

[mswlogo]

Oops that's not it.

Found old image before I did repair. Not as long ago as I thought. 5 years.

Found one place that might have it. Wants a small fortune for it. But I think mine is aluminum buss and the one I found is copper.
I HATE Aluminum for anything electrical.

As long as the base cabinet is the same it doesn't have to be exact.

 

[miimura]

Oops that's not it.

Found old image before I did repair. Not as long ago as I thought. 5 years.

Found one place that might have it. Wants a small fortune for it. But I think mine is aluminum buss and the one I found is copper.
I HATE Aluminum for anything electrical.

As long as the base cabinet is the same it doesn't have to be exact.

The ES series panel in the HD link also has aluminum bus bars.
Reference: https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdis...alog/Documents/2017/SF-17-Sect-01-ALL-web.pdf

 

[eprosenx]

The Heater is right near the Service Panel. So I will leave enough wire to go straight to panel.
Actually maybe I'll just bring it to the panel and double up on the breaker (for now).
I also might run larger wire (also not quite to code) so I can upgrade to a larger circuit when ever I resolve the panel. 30 amp is plenty though.

Note that many (most?) breakers are only rated to land a single conductor under their terminal (but I have seen ones that can land two). So you might have to do a pigtail inside the main panel to tie in two wires.

I am not aware of any reason code wise you are not allowed to run larger wire. That is common when dealing with derating of conductors, etc... You just need to be sure that the terminals on the breaker and on the receptacle or EVSE on the other end are rated for the wire size and type (AL/CU) that you use.

P.S. I am not a huge fan of the Dryer Buddy solution in most cases - in your case I think you should just repair your panel and add a dedicated circuit. ;-)

 

[mswlogo]

Note that many (most?) breakers are only rated to land a single conductor under their terminal (but I have seen ones that can land two). So you might have to do a pigtail inside the main panel to tie in two wires.

I am not aware of any reason code wise you are not allowed to run larger wire. That is common when dealing with derating of conductors, etc... You just need to be sure that the terminals on the breaker and on the receptacle or EVSE on the other end are rated for the wire size and type (AL/CU) that you use.

P.S. I am not a huge fan of the Dryer Buddy solution in most cases - in your case I think you should just repair your panel and add a dedicated circuit. ;-)

I know what I "should do"

Picture is before I did work on it. It is now FULL (due to loss of 4 slots and some added circuits). It has Max twin Breakers in it now.
Removing this (working panel) with be major work. I've done it before and it's in a finished wall.

If I can find I buss, that would be easy. I might have found a 200 Amp copper buss one. I suspect it's exactly the same with just a different breaker on it. I should have looked 5 years ago because it was probably easy to source back then.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Could OP not have simply purchased a 10-30 socket and 10-30 plug for the UMC? Of the available supported outlets you can get Tesla plugs for, and that match the OP's wiring (30A hot-hot-ground), it is the clearly the only correct option.

The reason they sell them 10-30 adapters is both 10-30 and 14-30 are used for dryer outlets (and provide a potential source of charging), and it would be nonsensical for Tesla to not offer a 10-30 connector when quite a few homes still have 10-30 dryer hookups available for charging.

While normally you can't put in a new 10-30 in for new construction, you can still buy replacement outlets in many (most?) jurisdictions to replace existing outlets. So if OP already had 6-30 wired they could have simply replaced it with 10-30, and it wouldn't have been any more dangerous than if Tesla offered a 6-30 plug. The only thing safer would be pulling a neutral and wiring for 14-30 (none of these adapt-the-adapter solutions are safer).

 

[mswlogo]

Could OP not have simply purchased a 10-30 socket and 10-30 plug for the UMC? Of the available supported outlets you can get Tesla plugs for, and that match the OP's wiring (30A hot-hot-ground), it is the clearly the only correct option.

The reason they sell them 10-30 adapters is both 10-30 and 14-30 are used for dryer outlets (and provide a potential source of charging), and it would be nonsensical for Tesla to not offer a 10-30 connector when quite a few homes still have 10-30 dryer hookups available for charging.

While normally you can't put in a new 10-30 in for new construction, you can still buy replacement outlets in many (most?) jurisdictions to replace existing outlets. So if OP already had 6-30 wired they could have simply replaced it with 10-30, and it wouldn't have been any more dangerous than if Tesla offered a 6-30 plug. The only thing safer would be pulling a neutral and wiring for 14-30 (none of these adapt-the-adapter solutions are safer).

I could have put a 10-30 but it felt more wrong than a 14-30 with no neutral.
Ether outlet should technically have a 10-3 but I only had a 10-2. All the UMC or Wall Charger needs is 10-2 and they don’t support the best outlet for it, 6-30. I understand why they have 10-30 and 14-30, but they should have a 6-30 too.

 

[eprosenx]

Could OP not have simply purchased a 10-30 socket and 10-30 plug for the UMC? Of the available supported outlets you can get Tesla plugs for, and that match the OP's wiring (30A hot-hot-ground), it is the clearly the only correct option.

The reason they sell them 10-30 adapters is both 10-30 and 14-30 are used for dryer outlets (and provide a potential source of charging), and it would be nonsensical for Tesla to not offer a 10-30 connector when quite a few homes still have 10-30 dryer hookups available for charging.

While normally you can't put in a new 10-30 in for new construction, you can still buy replacement outlets in many (most?) jurisdictions to replace existing outlets. So if OP already had 6-30 wired they could have simply replaced it with 10-30, and it wouldn't have been any more dangerous than if Tesla offered a 6-30 plug. The only thing safer would be pulling a neutral and wiring for 14-30 (none of these adapt-the-adapter solutions are safer).

Installing a 10-30 would be a bad idea since the OP’s wire has an uninsulated ground wire that may actually be a smaller gauge than the hot ones. It is not suitable to use as a neutral. If someone actually plugged something in that used 120v it would put current on a wire that should not have current on it. For the Tesla use case it would be fine, but a bad idea if it ever got used for anything else.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

I could have put a 10-30 but it felt more wrong than a 14-30 with no neutral.
Ether outlet should technically have a 10-3 but I only had a 10-2. All the UMC or Wall Charger needs is 10-2 and they don’t support the best outlet for it, 6-30. I understand why they have 10-30 and 14-30, but they should have a 6-30 too.

NEMA 10-30 normally only has hot/hot/ground, the wiring for which would generally be described as 10/2 (though would actually also have a ground wire, which can be confusing). Assuming you had hot/hot/ground available, that is precisely what 6-30 and 10-30 were designed for originally. It is of course no longer code for new installs and 10/3 (hot/hot/neutral plus ground wire) on a 14-30 or similar outlet would be used today for new work. I agree Tesla should have 6-30 connector, but switching to 10-30 and using that would the most sane solution in this case, as it exactly meets the existing wiring situation.

Installing a 10-30 would be a bad idea since the OP’s wire has an uninsulated ground wire that may actually be a smaller gauge than the hot ones. It is not suitable to use as a neutral. If someone actually plugged something in that used 120v it would put current on a wire that should not have current on it. For the Tesla use case it would be fine, but a bad idea if it ever got used for anything else.

10-30 doesn't use a neutral. It expects a ground only. Technically if you had 10/3 available and wired it to neutral you'd be doing it wrong (you should instead use 14-30 in that case), though to be honest there would be nothing bad about doing that - the neutral should if anything be more capable than the ground wire. So it isn't a bad idea to use 10-30 when all you have is 10/2, it actually meets the wiring available. Tesla offers a 10-30 adapter, clearly it can work with just hot/hot/ground. As for the socket being used for something else - well, it's no more or less dangerous than the millions of 10-30 outlets still installed throughout the country that are running electric dryers every day. And if the wiring was good enough for the 6-30 to begin with, it's good enough for the 10-30 (granted, there's no guarantee of that, but ... ) Nobody should be putting a 120V load of significant size onto a 10-30, so the ground should be sufficient (often, dryers which run on 10-30 with no neutral pull a small 120V load to run the brains of it, and use the 240V for all the various motors / heaters - so pulling 120V across hot and ground on a 10-30 is perfectly normal).

 

[miimura]

Wrong. NEMA 10-30 has Neutral not Ground. That is why it is now deprecated.

NEMA connector - Wikipedia

 

[davewill]

There is no such thing as close to code. You are either compliant or you are not. Installing NEMA 14-30 without a neutral line is not. Also, there are inexpensive alternatives. The EVSEadapters 6-30 to UMC v2 adapter costs $75, which is $40 more than the Tesla 14-30 adapter.

Yeah, I would definitely call this the WORST choice of all the ideas discussed here.

 

[Rocky_H]

@BioSehnsucht You have this very backward. The 10-XX series of outlets, like 10-30 or 10-50 are 240V/120V by using hot1, hot2, and neutral and DO NOT have a ground pin. The 6-XX series of outlets are 240V only by having hot1, hot2, and ground. The 10 series ones were disallowed by NEC many years back because of that potential safety risk of those types of outlets trying to double purpose on that Neutral to use it as both a grounding and a current-carrying wire.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Oops, I was certain 10 and 6 were identical in hot-hot-ground. I can't edit my posts now, too much time elapsed.

 

[Glamisduner]

Ground and neutral both go back to the same buss in my panel (or in other panels they are seperate but connected together).
So I too am struggling with why a 10-30 would have been bad idea. Does the neutral wire need to be sleeved?

If it's the only outlet on the branch you could just move the ground to the neutral inside the electric box and be done with it? (seems like it wouldn't matter since they are tied together anyways, or in my case there is only one bar.