Residuals M3LR vs M3SR+

[Js1977]

Reasons why people buy a car... 'because they fancy it' is No1 without any real logic probably vested in bragging rights and flaunting their believed success etc. Reasons they tend to state are things like reliability, economy, performance, environment etc. Most is a crock of poo.
If someone buys a car for it’s performance then that implies they're going to drive it like a pratt with the usual belief that they are a better driver - until they run out of talent because most folk are just average. The old saying is that 90% of drivers self-identify as above average.
If one was truly after economy then any old cheap to insure banger would do and scrap it if it has problems because however fancy and fast a car is the other reality is that it will still only average 60mph on the motorway or at very best 65mph if you drive like a dick (and survive)
If it's environmental benefit then an old banger avoided building the new car and the year or two on fossil fuel before it’s scrapped will equate to the new EV on footprint. And if you really wanted to be environmentally friendly then taxis and public transport.
Lastly if you have to borrow to finance the vehicle then you shouldn't be buying it with any pretence of economy because you're giving money to a third party.

I bought mine 'cos I fancied it. In 50 years of driving I’d never had a new car. I wrongly believed that automation would be better than it is and that it’d help an old fellow if he starts to go a bit ga-ga and I can afford the loss of value (even if it does hurt my cheap psyche). But frankly my 28yr old other car is as much fun to drive, albeit carefully 'cos it really is showing its age and a bit rumbly on suspension but on a long trip it'll get there quicker just due to refuelling speed.

Those are interesting assumptions. Ill agree though with borrowing money as to finance a vehicle or a house for that matter since you are paying interest twice for the same thing.

 

[Peter 224]

Reasons why people buy a car... 'because they fancy it' is No1 without any real logic probably vested in bragging rights and flaunting their believed success etc. Reasons they tend to state are things like reliability, economy, performance, environment etc. Most is a crock of poo.
If someone buys a car for it’s performance then that implies they're going to drive it like a pratt with the usual belief that they are a better driver - until they run out of talent because most folk are just average. The old saying is that 90% of drivers self-identify as above average.
If one was truly after economy then any old cheap to insure banger would do and scrap it if it has problems because however fancy and fast a car is the other reality is that it will still only average 60mph on the motorway or at very best 65mph if you drive like a dick (and survive)
If it's environmental benefit then an old banger avoided building the new car and the year or two on fossil fuel before it’s scrapped will equate to the new EV on footprint. And if you really wanted to be environmentally friendly then taxis and public transport.
Lastly if you have to borrow to finance the vehicle then you shouldn't be buying it with any pretence of economy because you're giving money to a third party.

I bought mine 'cos I fancied it. In 50 years of driving I’d never had a new car. I wrongly believed that automation would be better than it is and that it’d help an old fellow if he starts to go a bit ga-ga and I can afford the loss of value (even if it does hurt my cheap psyche). But frankly my 28yr old other car is as much fun to drive, albeit carefully 'cos it really is showing its age and a bit rumbly on suspension but on a long trip it'll get there quicker just due to refuelling speed.

I buy most of my "boys toys" because they are fun and make me happy. Cars, HiFi, tools, "Airfix" kits (it is now possible to spend £500+ on a kit)
I don't consider myself a good or fast driver: the lack of speeding points and accidents suggests that, yet I like speed. Something of a paradox.

The Tesla amuses me, it is a good car to drive and great for virtue signaling. My other car is a 2014 Morgan Plus 8 with a 4.8L BMW V8, enormous fun to drive and since I bought in 2014 it has appreciated by £15k. But as it does 15mpg locally and 27mpg on a run it isn't exactly economical. But like the M3LR it makes me smile and that is, ultimately, all that matters.

If I sat down and added up how much I've spent on cars (and bikes) since I was 16 I think I'd cry... so I won't. Same with HiFi and Cameras and..and...and...

Bottom line: Life is to be enjoyed, buy the toys you enjoy and can afford.

 

[GRiLLA]

Reasons why people buy a car... 'because they fancy it' is No1 without any real logic probably vested in bragging rights and flaunting their believed success etc. Reasons they tend to state are things like reliability, economy, performance, environment etc. Most is a crock of poo.
If someone buys a car for it’s performance then that implies they're going to drive it like a pratt with the usual belief that they are a better driver - until they run out of talent because most folk are just average. The old saying is that 90% of drivers self-identify as above average.
If one was truly after economy then any old cheap to insure banger would do and scrap it if it has problems because however fancy and fast a car is the other reality is that it will still only average 60mph on the motorway or at very best 65mph if you drive like a dick (and survive)
If it's environmental benefit then an old banger avoided building the new car and the year or two on fossil fuel before it’s scrapped will equate to the new EV on footprint. And if you really wanted to be environmentally friendly then taxis and public transport.
Lastly if you have to borrow to finance the vehicle then you shouldn't be buying it with any pretence of economy because you're giving money to a third party.

I bought mine 'cos I fancied it. In 50 years of driving I’d never had a new car. I wrongly believed that automation would be better than it is and that it’d help an old fellow if he starts to go a bit ga-ga and I can afford the loss of value (even if it does hurt my cheap psyche). But frankly my 28yr old other car is as much fun to drive, albeit carefully 'cos it really is showing its age and a bit rumbly on suspension but on a long trip it'll get there quicker just due to refuelling speed.

You really don't understand carbon emissions. Cars last an average of 12 years in the UK before being scrapped, the 'manufacturing debt' is more logically considered against the lifetime than whatever period you plan to own it. Your old banger is always emitting far more CO2 than your EV. From a purely carbon costing scenario all ICE cars should be scrapped immediately. Unfortunately we also have to consider financial cost, buying new EVs isn't within the reach of everyone.
Unless Taxis or public transport are also powered by CO2 free power then they are not carbon free, so are less environmentally friendly. If they were 0 carbon, they would be equal.

 

[Peter 224]

You really don't understand carbon emissions. Cars last an average of 12 years in the UK before being scrapped, the 'manufacturing debt' is more logically considered against the lifetime than whatever period you plan to own it. Your old banger is always emitting far more CO2 than your EV. From a purely carbon costing scenario all ICE cars should be scrapped immediately. Unfortunately we also have to consider financial cost, buying new EVs isn't within the reach of everyone.
Unless Taxis or public transport are also powered by CO2 free power then they are not carbon free, so are less environmentally friendly. If they were 0 carbon, they would be equal.

Life on this planet is all all based on carbon life forms, from algae to humans. Everything we do involves using carbon and releasing carbon dioxide. The "problem" is that since the industrial revolution we have consumed "fossil" carbon and released the resultant carbon dioxide. The result is a degree of climate change, which is seen as a disaster.

It isn't. It is an opportunity.

I agree we need to control the release of CO2, but that is, in itself, a challenge and humans work best when challenged and under pressure. Without this concern we wouldn't have many of the recent developments in automotive technology.

A disaster would be the release of methane hydrates as a result of undersea volcanic activity....or a volcanic winter as happened after Krakatoa or the 30,000 year volcanic eruption that caused the Deccan Traps in India or a significant meteor impact. OK, the probability of all these is small, but it is not Zero.

Perspective is everything.

 

[pgkevet]

Internet figures show that building an EV is about 14.5T CO2 and an ICE is 9.5T CO2. A gallon of petrol used = 11Kg CO2 (all figures simplified)
An EV is going to last around 8yrs purely because very few folk are going to buy one secondhand with the battery out of warranty although folk who have had it for years and looked after it may just shell out for a new battery. There's a small chance some dealers may refurbish packs and offer new warranties if that market develops.
An ICE indeed lasts some 12 years typically.
The carbon footprint of building an EV therefore equals roughly 50000 mile ICE usage? Which for average folk is 7yrs motoring. That supports my argument that buying an old car in functional condition and avoiding buying any new car and particularly an EV and extending that old car's life by an extra couple of years is a carbon saving. The classic example was the embargo on trade with Cuba meaning that the islanders got creative in keeping classic 50's cars running well into the 90's and saving the building of nearly 4 times as many cars...
It's a paradox but makes sense.
Of course since most cars only get used for 9hrs a week it'd be even better to have some sort of commuter avoidance of cars, carpooling and easy access to loan cars and reduce the total number of new cars needed. But that's an invasion of lifestyle and more importantly (to governments) a loss of manufacturing, jobs, export and taxes.
Te same applies to white goods and electronics etc - build them to last or be repairable and stuff the fashion of having everything new.

 

[Limey]

So, keep using 100w light bulbs instead of 4w LEDs?

Plenty of people use 8 year old EVs, the price comes down to cover the risk of parts replacement. Plenty of EVs do hundreds of thousands of miles.

Thread has jumped the shark.

 

[Mr_Dave]

Knew I should have kept my ‘02 Citroen C5 diesel. I could be boasting about how by not replacing it with an EV, I’m saving the planet when the exhaust blasts out massive clouds of black smoke all over the school kids I pass as I accelerate past them.

 

[Jason71]

Reasons why people buy a car... 'because they fancy it' is No1 without any real logic probably vested in bragging rights and flaunting their believed success etc. Reasons they tend to state are things like reliability, economy, performance, environment etc. Most is a crock of poo.
If someone buys a car for it’s performance then that implies they're going to drive it like a pratt with the usual belief that they are a better driver - until they run out of talent because most folk are just average. The old saying is that 90% of drivers self-identify as above average.

I must be the exception then. For 15 years I did 20K miles a year mainly on rural A roads. In that time I had 4 Octavia VRS's (1xlpg, 3xdiesel) each one bought at around 20-30K and driven until around 100K then swapped before the suspension/gearbox fell off ( 70K on a roads takes it toll).
Its arguable if the VRS is a true performance car by your measure but its the top of the Octavia range so for the purposes of this I am calling it one., and it was easy to justify due to the need to overtake on all those A road journeys but still give good economy.
Maths (yes I have a spreadsheet) told me the M3 bought as a company car with all the associated tax breaks currently on offer might actually work out nearly as cheap own and run over the course of 3 years all be it with a larger initial investment required. Covid intervened so we will never know side by side but based on the crazy low depreciation on the M3 right now its actually working out better than I thought even with reduced mileage and may outperform the diesel

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

So, keep using 100w light bulbs instead of 4w LEDs?

Plenty of people use 8 year old EVs, the price comes down to cover the risk of parts replacement. Plenty of EVs do hundreds of thousands of miles.

Thread has jumped the shark.

If the led bulb took 500kwh to manufacture, then yes which is the point being made

Knew I should have kept my ‘02 Citroen C5 diesel. I could be boasting about how by not replacing it with an EV, I’m saving the planet when the exhaust blasts out massive clouds of black smoke all over the school kids I pass as I accelerate past them.

Your point raises two things, petrol and diesel aren’t only creating co2, things like diesel particulates, although cars made in recent years are much better, and with co2, where the co2 is generated is less relevant to how much is generated. The “not in my back yard’ isn’t really an argument. Shoving the pollution to somewhere else or letting a 10 year old suffer mining cobalt in a different country doesn’t really wash.

Just shows it’s complicated, and while EVs are a big step in the right direction, it’s a step to far to get too virtuous thinking they are a guilt free choice.

 

[pgkevet]

Knew I should have kept my ‘02 Citroen C5 diesel. I could be boasting about how by not replacing it with an EV, I’m saving the planet when the exhaust blasts out massive clouds of black smoke all over the school kids I pass as I accelerate past them.

That would be a 19yr old car not a 12 or 14yr car and I never suggested failing to service or repair it or junk it when it’s beyond salvation. And you could putt-putt safely by the kids instead of slamming your foot down for an unhealthy dose of carbon particulates. I have a 19yr old car that passed its emissions last MOT because the engine got rebuilt when it failed a few years ago. As it happens I only use it out of nostalgia now every couple of weeks because the tin worms are getting to it and I can't get new suspension at any half-way rational price for it.

 

[pgkevet]

So, keep using 100w light bulbs instead of 4w LEDs?

Just as a point of order it takes a 10w led to give the same output as 100w incandescent. It'd be interesting to look at the fact that nearly all led's are far eastern with likely dubious sources for power for the factories and then their transport, labour etc. It's rarely black and white. An awful lot of the cheap led bulbs bought via auction sites are quite dubious in their internal electronics with surprisingly few fires.

 

[GRiLLA]

Internet figures show that building an EV is about 14.5T CO2 and an ICE is 9.5T CO2. A gallon of petrol used = 11Kg CO2 (all figures simplified)
An EV is going to last around 8yrs purely because very few folk are going to buy one secondhand with the battery out of warranty although folk who have had it for years and looked after it may just shell out for a new battery. There's a small chance some dealers may refurbish packs and offer new warranties if that market develops.
An ICE indeed lasts some 12 years typically.
The carbon footprint of building an EV therefore equals roughly 50000 mile ICE usage? Which for average folk is 7yrs motoring. That supports my argument that buying an old car in functional condition and avoiding buying any new car and particularly an EV and extending that old car's life by an extra couple of years is a carbon saving. The classic example was the embargo on trade with Cuba meaning that the islanders got creative in keeping classic 50's cars running well into the 90's and saving the building of nearly 4 times as many cars...
It's a paradox but makes sense.
Of course since most cars only get used for 9hrs a week it'd be even better to have some sort of commuter avoidance of cars, carpooling and easy access to loan cars and reduce the total number of new cars needed. But that's an invasion of lifestyle and more importantly (to governments) a loss of manufacturing, jobs, export and taxes.
Te same applies to white goods and electronics etc - build them to last or be repairable and stuff the fashion of having everything new.

Repeating the same mistake with numbers doesn't make your flawed logic correct. There is no evidence that EVs are scrapped any sooner than ICE from vehicle registration data so far, and given Tesla's data that shows that after 200K miles they typically lose 10% capacity. So the only measure that is worth comparing is the lifetime CO2 production.

Here's a better view without the man-maths approach

A global comparison of the life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of combustion engine and electric passenger cars - International Council on Clean Transportation

Life-cycle assessment of the greenhouse gas emissions of passenger cars in China, Europe, India, and the United States, which together account for about 70% of new passenger car sales worldwide.

theicct.org

Most people overestimate the impact of manufacturing on the lifetime co2 pollution, it's a relatively small factor compared to tailpipe emissions. There is no logic that keeping ICE longer is in some way is greener, it simply doesn't make sense when you can see the emissions pouring out of the back.

 

[pgkevet]

And just because you can't see the scarred landscape, displaced personas, the belching fumes from the diesels digging it, the mess of the Bessemer converters filled with coal and the piles of scrap machines from factories, the casting works, the power station fumes and all the other production processes including international shipping and environmental damages doesn't mean they aren't happening whatever you can or cannot see out of the tailpipe.

 

[GRiLLA]

And just because you can't see the scarred landscape, displaced personas, the belching fumes from the diesels digging it, the mess of the Bessemer converters filled with coal and the piles of scrap machines from factories, the casting works, the power station fumes and all the other production processes including international shipping and environmental damages doesn't mean they aren't happening whatever you can or cannot see out of the tailpipe.

No, but I can understand a graph.

 

[SpareHeadOne]

An ICE indeed lasts some 12 years typically.

Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) says 8.4 years is the average age of cars, here's the breakdown for 2020:

0-1 Years

1-2 Years

2-3 Years

3-4 Years

4-6 Years

6-13 Years

13+ Years

4.8%

6.7%

6.8%

7.0%

15.0%

37.9%

20.7%

The total is around 50m (so about 10m are 13+ years old), with about 500k EVs on the road right now.

 

[pgkevet]

Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) says 8.4 years is the average age of cars, here's the breakdown for 2020:

0-1 Years

1-2 Years

2-3 Years

3-4 Years

4-6 Years

6-13 Years

13+ Years

4.8%

6.7%

6.8%

7.0%

15.0%

37.9%

20.7%

The total is around 50m (so about 10m are 13+ years old), with about 500k EVs on the road right now.

I got my `12yr figure from a simple search of 'how old is the average car UK' which your chart supports. What is scary is that due to the chip shortage and pandemic fewer new cars are about such that your chart probably reflects a lower % of newer cars.
It's always been in the interests of manufacturers to design stuff not to last if they can get away with it. And with more and more cars being so computerised and reliant on expensive dealer-only repairs there are going to be fewer older cars about - more waste.
We fail to look ahead. Remember when London buses were all electric (trolley buses) but it became cheaper to switch to diesel? Of course they were run with coal powered generation spewing smoke. Remember when we had a public transport system that serviced the larger villages until Beeching made them 'efficient'? And that pushed more folk into needing cars. We have the same problem with 'centres of excellence' destroying local services so everyone has to travel to unwieldy schools and hospitals miles away instead of those centres being used for the problem cases only. It’s also chaos when one of those massive places has to close.

 

[Irata]

Of course, the fuel for ICE cars are shipped around the world by burning, yes, even more fuel.

This video contains an interesting animation...

 

[OUTATIME1]

Sorry to steer this thread back on course - but I have a question!

The going rate for a 2019 SR+ on Auto Trader at the moment looks to be £37k and up. Which is £1k more than I paid for my car a year ago, when it was a year old.

How realistic do you think it would be to achieve such a price selling privately, so to maximise my return? I am interested in switching to a new MIC car, and if I could do that with just a small additional outlay, i'd be more inclined to do it.

 

[Peter 224]

I'd give WBAC a tug and see what they offer to get a benchmark.

 

[OUTATIME1]

I'd give WBAC a tug and see what they offer to get a benchmark.

Yea, did that - £33.5k on their site. Which is decent tbf - but that wouldn't be enough to tempt me to put my hand in my pocket and handover another 10k of my money for the updated SR+

I've never had a valuable car before this one, and I won't again (inheritance was the only reason I was able to pay cash for this one) - so I am keen to protect myself from depreciation as much as possible.