Roadster 2023

[Krash]

Call me skeptical, but I don’t believe him.

I believe he thinks so. Here is my take…

Target next year means maybe 2026.

Elon is competitive and many other cars will beat the 2020 specs by then. He’s not going to achieve any manufacturing scale from any parts not repurposed in other cars, so borrowing from SpaceX is one of his few competitive advantages.

Since Tesla doesn’t spend much on marketing and PR, Tesla can afford to lose some money in fixed and variable cost making it, but the more they lose in variable cost, the fewer they will want to build. Consequently Tesla could build a money losing exotic variant and a break even normal one. Or they could just do a limited production run.

Here is some speculation:

Reused
carbon ceramic brakes

Motors: Plaid rear, maybe re-geared. Maybe two PM motors in front.

Batteries: probably the new Cybertruck individual cells.

Electrical: 48v. Automotive Ethernet rather than CANBus. Likely some pure 48v parts that weren’t available in time for Cybertruck. (Window motors?)

Body: Aluminum? Building carbon fiber bodies seems excessive.

Drive by wire

Tires: Probably similar sizes and materials for sub 170mph speed performance. Probably whatever has reasonable wear that can be rated for 250mph for the high performance. Not a lot of choices on the latter.

Octovalve: might need to be modified to include the heavy thermal loads of the compressed air system.

New exclusive
Battery packaging: Maybe the double stacked 200kWh in the high end version.

SpaceX: To me this is the biggest unknown. Jets for active downforce ? Or for thrust? Or both? Intake air fan for active downforce?

New but maybe leveragable:
Wheel lugs: F1 style. Likely staggered. (Will F1 style allow for square with rear spacers? Do buyers of this car even care about winter tires or tire wear?)

Unknown
Exotic glass?
Still portrait screen?
Separate heavy GT and light track model?

Unlikely
Megacasting: I just assume that’s not practical for low volumes, even if a press is already in use for something else on site.

 

[electrifyme]

0-60 under 1 sec? What kind of tires and under what conditions? How controllable will this be?

 

[zanary]

0-60 under 1 sec? What kind of tires and under what conditions? How controllable will this be?

that is only achievable on a road worthy car through thrust in addition to acceleration, not just acceleration only. Just my guess!

 

[Daniel in SD]

0-60 under 1 sec? What kind of tires and under what conditions? How controllable will this be?

It will have active downforce. Thrust is far too inefficient and dangerous.
Like this:

McMurtry Spéirling - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tom22]

None of us know if we’ll have to pay more. I would guess that almost certainly those who paid that large amount for the founders series won’t have to pay extra. People like myself who put the $50k down it’s hard to say. I paid while the price was still listed so I think maybe I have a chance. Those that paid the $50k after the price was removed I’d imagine will have to pay more.

Honestly I’m happy to finally hear something on the car. I had been looking at hybrid Supercars and that kind of thing. Now I’m content to just get the new M3P and wait for the Roadster. The 0-60 in under a second isn’t a great thing IMHO. I want a fun, fast, beautiful roadster. I’ve driven cars that were too fast for the road and it takes away from the driving pleasure. Perhaps I’ll just set it in chill.

i understood what u wanted to saying
thank you sir
we still don’t have some information even little important
but same feeling sir,finally we got information!
i have old M3P,i can’t change car in few years,ur car combo will be more shiny i just envy

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just don't hit 88 in the new 2020 roadster (with radicial new design goals) as that action will send you to 1985, and there are no charging stations there except level 1 and some 30 amp dryer plugs.

That's why he's going to make that sucker nuclear. Say hello to "Mr. Fission"

 

[electrifyme]

Prototypes are easy, mass production is hard... says Elon. Sounds like this will be hard to mass produce and scale.

 

[Knightshade]

Well, ChatGPT provides. Not sure if this is accurate. 0-60 in 1 second at 2.74G isn't that bad. 0.9 sec is 3G.

Roller coasters can hit 5g or more briefly... 2.74ish should be fine for a second or so.... also direction of thrust here is in a horizonal plane rather than vertical so should be fine.

It will have active downforce. Thrust is far too inefficient and dangerous.
Like this:

McMurtry Spéirling - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dangerous how? Cold gas thrusters are quite safe with an inert fuel- and were already mentioned originally as something SpaceX was bringing to the roadster.... Bosch has even experiments with gas thrusters to stabilize a tipping motorcycle as a safety feature.


I don't think active downforce gets you sub-1 second by itself on street tires.

The car you cite only managed 1.4, and on bespoke drag slicks, and with a total vehicle weight of about 2200lbs- roadster is going to be much heavier than that with a 500 mile range battery, and need to go significantly quicker to 60 on street tires. Downforce ain't gonna be enough for that.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Roller coasters can hit 5g or more briefly... 2.74ish should be fine for a second or so.... also direction of thrust here is in a horizonal plane rather than vertical so should be fine.




Dangerous how? Cold gas thrusters are quite safe with an inert fuel- and were already mentioned originally as something SpaceX was bringing to the roadster.... Bosch has even experiments with gas thrusters to stabilize a tipping motorcycle as a safety feature.


I don't think active downforce gets you sub-1 second by itself on street tires.

The car you cite only managed 1.4, and on bespoke drag slicks, and with a total vehicle weight of about 2200lbs- roadster is going to be much heavier than that with a 500 mile range battery, and need to go significantly quicker to 60 on street tires. Downforce ain't gonna be enough for that.

Yeah, this nonsense is dumb. Cold air thrusters? all bullshit.

Just release a damn Roadster with the Plaid drivetrain, the track pack, and some weight reduction. It will be awesome. Damn good enough. We don't need 600 mile range. We don't need 1s 0-60. We just need something fast and fun.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Roller coasters can hit 5g or more briefly... 2.74ish should be fine for a second or so.... also direction of thrust here is in a horizonal plane rather than vertical so should be fine.




Dangerous how? Cold has thrusters are quite safe with an inert fuel- and were already mentioned originally as something SpaceX was bringing to the roadster.

I don't think active downforce gets you sub-1 second by itself on street tires.

The car you cite only managed 1.4, and on bespoke drag slicks, and with a total vehicle weight of about 2200lbs- roadster is going to be much heavier than that with a 500 mile range battery, and need to go significantly quicker to 60 on street tires. Downforce ain't gonna be enough for that.

It generates 4400lbs of downforce standing still. That is enough traction to halve the 0-60 time of a 4400lb vehicle. They must be power limited. They’re also rear wheel drive instead of AWD but they should still be faster than 1.4 unless they’re power limited.
I assume thrusters would blow over pedestrians and anything else not bolted down. Could be wrong though.
I think it will have thrusters but they will be used to push the car downward.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just release a damn Roadster with the Plaid drivetrain, the track pack, and some weight reduction. It will be awesome. Damn good enough. We don't need 600 mile range. We don't need 1s 0-60. We just need something fast and fun.

Exaaaaaactly.

He's going to weird it out so much it's not going to be anything remotely usable or feasible in the real world (sound familiar? )

We're all just watching Elon Musk materbate in real time.

 

[Knightshade]

It generates 4400lbs of downforce standing still. That is enough traction to halve the 0-60 time of a 4400lb vehicle. They must be power limited. They’re also rear wheel drive instead of AWD but they should still be faster than 1.4 unless they’re power limited.

The car you cite is 2200 lbs and the 1.4 0-60 is also at your own link... and again on custom made slicks, not street tires.

It IS RWD, but uses 2 electric motors to do it.

The roadster would benefit from AWD, but would likely be double the vehicle weight given the stated range, and need to do it on street tires AND 0.5 seconds quicker.

Show me the math that downforce alone can do that.

I assume thrusters would blow over pedestrians and anything else not bolted down. Could be wrong though.

Air thruster outflow would dissipate pretty quickly... Plus of course since you're in the camp of FSD is already L5 you know the FSD system would know if a pedestrian was so close to a thruster as to put them at risk and simply not fire

 

[Daniel in SD]

The car you cite is 2200 lbs and the 1.4 0-60 is also at your own link... and again on custom made slicks, not street tires.

It IS RWD, but uses 2 electric motors to do it.

The roadster would benefit from AWD, but would likely be double the vehicle weight given the stated range, and need to do it on street tires AND 0.5 seconds quicker.

Show me the math that downforce alone can do that.





Air thruster outflow would dissipate pretty quickly... Plus of course since you're in the camp of FSD is already L5 you know the FSD system would know if a pedestrian was so close to a thruster as to put them at risk and simply not fire

It’s literally the first law!

Friction - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Double the downward force = double the traction. Obviously you also have to double the power to get from 2s to 1s 0-60.
We all know FSD is L5 beta and neither of us expect it to be out of beta when the roadster is released.

 

[Krash]

As a non physicist and non EE, I’m most interested in the transition from 1) active downforce at launch and 2) power needs at higher speeds.

Can anyone do the math based on current weight, estimated tire patch area and current tire traction properties, if you want to keep a constant 3Gs, for how long and how much extra downforce do you need? Not all the way to 250mph right? Also, what is the total amount of power area needed over that time to 250mph?

Does it really make sense to reconfigure the battery cell layout for double or triple max power when you know that the car can only use that much power for a few seconds?

I know ultracapacitors are bulky and heavy but does that amount of power still mean all batteries and no ultracapacitors?

 

[zanary]

Also remember that Ferrari submitted the patent for this = Ferrari Files Patent for Gas Thruster, Pulse Jet Handling System for Supercars

Also check out these Engineering Explained videos on the topic.

 

[Knightshade]

It’s literally the first law!

Friction - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Double the downward force = double the traction.

That's flat out not true though. See here:

How Downforce Affects Tires

My twin brother wrote an article on You Suck at Racing about tire grip, and I’m going to steal some of that content to explore how tire grip and aero are related. Braking, cornering, accelerating: …

occamsracers.com

Graph A shows μ as a function of load (weight). If doubling weight doubled grip, then the line would be flat. But when you double the amount of weight on a tire, there are diminishing returns

Panel B is what happens when you add load: the rubber goes deeper into the surface, creating more grip. But there’s only so far you can push the rubber in. This is why doubling the load on a tire doesn’t double its grip.

Obviously you also have to double the power to get from 2s to 1s 0-60.

Also untrue, because again here's diminishing returns.

0-60 mph Calculator for Cars | Calculate Estimated 0-60 Times

Calculate an estimated 0-60 mph time by entering horsepower, curb weight, drive type, and transmission type. Formula and rating factors based upon real world data.

www.carspecs.us

Putting in your theoretical 2000 lb prototype car at 650 hp (AWD/auto for easy math) we get 1.998 seconds 0-60. Double HP to 1300 and we get... 1.18 0-60.... not the just-under-1 your claim suggests.

Because again, diminishing returns, increased air resistance, etc.


BTW if we figure on a roadster at 4000 lbs due to the 500 mile range battery, we need 3275 horsepower to get under 1 second 0-60 (0.999).

Now, a pure EV will need a bit less thanks to a more efficient drivetrain, but not MASSIVELY less.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's flat out not true though. See here:

How Downforce Affects Tires

My twin brother wrote an article on You Suck at Racing about tire grip, and I’m going to steal some of that content to explore how tire grip and aero are related. Braking, cornering, accelerating: …

occamsracers.com

Also untrue, because again here's diminishing returns.

0-60 mph Calculator for Cars | Calculate Estimated 0-60 Times

Calculate an estimated 0-60 mph time by entering horsepower, curb weight, drive type, and transmission type. Formula and rating factors based upon real world data.

www.carspecs.us

Putting in your theoretical 2000 lb prototype car at 650 hp (AWD/auto for easy math) we get 1.998 seconds 0-60. Double HP to 1300 and we get... 1.18 0-60.... not the just-under-1 your claim suggests.

Because again, diminishing returns, increased air resistance, etc.


BTW if we figure on a roadster at 4000 lbs due to the 500 mile range battery, we need 3275 horsepower to get under 1 second 0-60 (0.999).

Now, a pure EV will need a bit less thanks to a more efficient drivetrain, but not MASSIVELY less.

I’m talking about the basic physics. I guess I should look at Tesla 0-60 times vs hp and weight but I bet it’s very linear.
That calculator is taking into account transmission type which clearly doesn’t apply in the case of electric cars.
We’ll see. Active downforce is way more practical than thrusters. I don’t think Tesla would have any problem getting to 2000hp. They’ll probably use a broader power band than the Plaid.

 

[DarkandStormy]

So they were taking deposits for 5+ years and hadn't determined design goals?

Anyway, not sure why this blatant vaporware is getting re-pumped today.

 

[Knightshade]

I’m talking about the basic physics

So am I. Newtonian physics has limits, especially as applies to the real world. As the links I provided explains, there are diminishing returns in the real world and traction can't increase to infinity.

. I guess I should look at Tesla 0-60 times vs hp and weight but I bet it’s very linear.

For something like a Model 3 it's probably close-ish (though prob. not 1:1) but again- diminishing returns. A P100D->Plaid is adding over 50% more horsepower... the reduction in 0-60 is not proportional to that HP increase.

That calculator is taking into account transmission type which clearly doesn’t apply in the case of electric cars.

Sure- in fact I specifically pointed that out... but the difference is maybe 10% drivetrain loss of power... not 50% or something.

We’ll see. Active downforce is way more practical than thrusters.

More practical? Sure. Sufficient to get sub 1 second 0-60? Almost certainly not.

Again the non-production car you cite, with massive downforce, and weighing likely half what a roadster will, did only 1.4 0-60.

I don’t think Tesla would have any problem getting to 2000hp. They’ll probably use a broader power band than the Plaid.

That's roughly double the horsepower of a plaid.

 

[HankLloydRight]

So they were taking deposits for 5+ years and hadn't determined design goals?

Elon and Grimes son "X" is now Chief Designer.