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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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BTW, have you noticed how many country names end with -ia or -ca/-ka ?

I think the most confused are Austria and Australia. In Austria they even have t-shirts showing they are not the Kangaroo nation.


The reason many countries have "-stan"/"-sthan" at the end is because it means "land" in Persian, Sanskrit and related languages.

ps : This is exactly like Eng-land, Scot-land. -Stan cognate is -state.

It is not quite as simple as that. In Farsi, the language of Iran, Iran means 'land of the Aryans'.
'Country' in most Indo-European languages ancient Sanskrit has been the source on many common nouns, but its application as a concept is a concept that has evolved fairly recently. 'Shah' is a Farsi word that generally means 'kingdom' rather than 'land', itself derived from the Sanskrit word for 'good or honest'. 'stan' and related words in old Persian actually meant 'a place abounding in' connoting anything vaguely homogeneous, and as notions of nationality leveled in those places it became added to the description, now as a synonym for 'country'.

Most of the commonly described 'Sanskrit' words in Indo-European languages have quite different meanings today than they did a few thousand years ago.

As an undergraduate linguistics major I spent far too much time devoted to linguistic history; enough to make me a trifle cautious with both oral and written descriptions of etymology.

All this seems off-topic but it is not. The history of Northern Europe is dominated by linguistic issues from lack of Lithuanian written language, longtime use of Polish in official communication and even the word 'Rus'. From the Encyclopedia Britannica to avoid using deeply loaded history:
Kyivan-Rus

That history is the root of all the current conflict and much more. We, in my very humble opinion, need to be very cautious in our own use of many words that are fraught in all the "Bloodlands" (kudos to Prof. Snyder).
 
They never broke and ran in Kherson and I don't think they will there, not at first. Some estimates have the south with 150k soldiers. Russia will have a problem concentrating a reserve to reinforce defensive lines with armor but you can bet this will not be a cakewalk.
You keep pointing this out, but it's kind of meaningless.

Kherson is a city. It is largely intact and about as well fortified as you can get. There were thousands of civilians there and as soon as their retreat was threatened, the troops there pulled out. There was pretty much no way for Ukraine to effectively attack the entrenched Russians in Kherson and the Russians knew it. They lost Kherson, they retreated. The same will happen with Melitipol. There is no special sauce to the Kherson defenders, they lost.

Melitipol is also a big easy to defend city, but there are hundreds of miles of open country the Russians have to defend in order to prevent Melitipol from entering the pocket. Don't kid yourself thinking the Ukrainians are going to make an open attack on Melitipol. They are going to sweep around the city and force the Russians there to withdraw, leaving more equipment behind.

The only reason the Ukrainians didn't push much deeper into the Kherson Oblast at the time is because of the river, not because of the great Russian army.

Very little about the Russian defense of Kherson was impressive and their retreat from the city was orderly mostly because the Ukrainians didn't want to destroy the city trying to extinguish them.

PS: In the country side around Kherson, there were dozens of abandoned positions with large amounts of abandoned equipment.
 
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As an undergraduate linguistics major I spent far too much time devoted to linguistic history; enough to make me a trifle cautious with both oral and written descriptions of etymology.
Then you know Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit are closely related (I can somewhat understand Avestan since I've studied Sanskrit). Sthan comes from original Indo-Iranian word and means something like "home land" / "abode". So, Hindustan would mean the place where Hindus reside. It is even today used in our languages to mean that. The common term for a temple is "devasthana" - or abode of the God.

Thats all beside the point ... referring to a group of countries as "those stans" is offensive. Just like we don't say all those "-ia" countries or "-land" countries. Don't do that.
 
Then you know Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit are closely related (I can somewhat understand Avestan since I've studied Sanskrit). Sthan comes from original Indo-Iranian word and means something like "home land" / "abode". So, Hindustan would mean the place where Hindus reside. It is even today used in our languages to mean that. The common term for a temple is "devasthana" - or abode of the God.

Thats all beside the point ... referring to a group of countries as "those stans" is offensive. Just like we don't say all those "-ia" countries or "-land" countries. Don't do that.

I think you're too easily offended. I don't take offense when people refer to the nations of the "new world" as the Americas.
 
What I don’t understand is how can these drones fly unmolested from Ukraine territory.
A retired military guy on one of the cable channels discussed this the other day. To summarize, drones are small/low/slow while air defense systems are tuned to for large/high/fast. NORAD missed the Chinese spy balloon for similar reasons -- too slow and in that case too high to fall into one of their threat buckets.

He went on to say it's a major concern for US embassies and overseas military bases. He said such sites we were very vulnerable just a few years ago, but we've done a lot of work recently to improve things. Still have a lot more to do.
 
Interesting perspective on why Russia is reacting to the drone attacks in Moscow as they are. I feel like I need to re-read Alice in Wonderland sometimes to think from their perspective.


TL;DR - last paragraph from the referenced article, “There are three main reasons for the government’s passive reaction to the drone attacks: Putin’s faith in people’s endurance, the authorities’ fixation on demonstrating their “successes,” and Russia’s objective lack of military preparedness to respond effectively to such attacks. In the Russian system, the first person to raise the alarm gets the blame: it’s easier to hush everything up than to admit vulnerability. But the problem with this tactic is that it has its limits. People want to see strong leadership, but right now, that leadership is looking increasingly helpless and confused.”
 
Putin's plan A and B failed. His current plan C is to keep war simmering in Ukraine longterm at the lowest financial and political cost to him. He still gambles that the West will eventually lose interest and is currently holding out for the next U.S. elections to turn in his favor.

The war is starting to feel more real in Moscow with the drone probing attacks challenging Putin's latest plan. So far he's trying hard to sweep everything under the rug.

Yet this is just the beginning. Ukraine's ability to strike deeper, more powerfully, and more frequently in Russia will continue to grow.
 
Not sure I see the point of his threat. If Russia attacks UK Gov’t officials, doesn't that invoke NATO response?


Article 5 is about attacks on the territory of a NATO country. Posturing and threats don't count. The people around Putin are trying to keep from going out a window. He's afraid of someone deposing him and then negotiating with the Ukrainians and the west. The more they look like loons spouting impossible things, the safer they are in the eyes of Putin. Medvedev is in a particularly difficult spot because he would be a leading candidate to pull off a coup since he was president for a while when Putin hit his term limit.

By all accounts Russia is moving mobile reserves from Kremenia to Bahkmut but they ALSO stripped the north to send units south. The attacks on the troop concentrations in Marioupul were units being stripped from Kremenia and sent to the south. NOT the reverse. Russia is reinforcing the south which is EXACTLY what it seems Ukraine wants them to do ..exactly as happened in Kherson. Prediction: Units in south will not break and run. They are the best commanded and leadership will matter. They never broke and ran in Kherson and I don't think they will there, not at first. Some estimates have the south with 150k soldiers. Russia will have a problem concentrating a reserve to reinforce defensive lines with armor but you can bet this will not be a cakewalk.

The reason the units did not break in Kremenia is because Russia put an elite VDV unit into Lyman and bleed the Ukrainian assault. They bled it dry while troops reinforced Kremenia. They punished the Ukrainian assault with a single VDV unit. Then when other units were dug in Kreminia and prepared the Lyman units RETREATED under fire- very very difficult to do. They NEVER broke. Trying to help you understand that Ukraine is not dealing with primitive, brutal disorganized nobodies. Time and time again Russia has taken a pretty good knock on the chin and not had units collapse. The collapse only happened once with stripped out units operating at 15-20% of staffing on Kharkiv front. That's it. Never happened again. ONE time. The Ukrainians know this so they are not rushing forward blindly. They are feinting, moving, feinting, hitting units in transition, using all the weapons available, using weather, using information. They don't do all of that because they expect Russian units to break they do all of these things to gain even the slightest edge, to encourage the idiots in the russian MOD to make yet another mistake. Russian forces only break when Russian commanders do something grossly stupid such as put mobiks on flanks in Bahkmut and then it is a few hundred meters lost or maybe a few KM or strip all the manpower out of a region to reinforce another region.

The question to ask yourself if you want to think like the Ukrainian high command. IS where do you want them to strip assets? then find out if they have stripped assets. What can you do to convince them to strip more? Everyone is talking about an attack south. The terrain is lovely for it. It will obviously cut logistics. Russian commanders there are the best. Ukrainian and Russian bloggers talk about it, storm shadows hit targets in the south. Himars hits every other day in the south. Mobile armor made a probe all the way back in March(when it was still snowing the north, LOL) , LOTS of talk about it. What happens? Russia has reinforced and continue to reinforce in that direction. They are now putting armor units on trucks and moving them around to keep them mobile. Ukraine will surely attack soon and it surely won't really be the south. That's my prediction. But they will leave the head russian commander thinking it will come to the south ....leave him thinking that until it is too late to reinforce other areas. He's an idiot and his loyalty to Putin and incompetence are Ukraines greatest assets so they will also NOT target him. They will look to get Colonels in the field in the south.

The 58th Combined Arms Army which is responsible for the south is based around Zaprishia oblast, but a lot of the units that were attached to it during the Kherson campaign have been detached and moved to the Donbas.

The Ukrainian offensive in Kharkhiv was very lightly supported. Most of the vehicles were Humvees with 50 caliber machine guns. Any significant resistance would have stopped them and the VDV unit did slow them down, but didn't stop them.

The Donbas is very difficult terrain to attack on the east-west axis. The fact that the Ukrainians have made the progress they have on the flanks around Bakhmut is notable. They are routing Russians out of very easy to defend terrain.

I do agree with you that it's unlikely Ukraine will launch the offensive where everyone expects. But there are only three spots to launch an offensive at this point: the southwest towards Melitopol, the Southeast towards Mariupol, or northern Luhansk. Northern Luhansk would be the most productive if successful, but the route to the Azoz is the longest.

Russia lost a lot of men and equipment this winter. In the spring they also committed some of the last of their veteran units to Bakhmut. Many of the veteran units have been rebuilt twice already. With their training system completely broken those units are getting green recruits who don't know which end of a rifle is the dangerous bit. The thinning ranks of veterans have had to try and get these people ready for combat.

Most of the volunteers are going into the veteran units, so they have a bit more motivation than mobiks, but they are very green. Even well trained troops can break in their first combat encounter. Green troops with no training are even worse.

We'll see how the Russians do hold up to the offensive. It may be a Ukrainian slog as they slowly grind their way to the Azoz, or the Russians may not be able to hold the front and it may collapse under the weight of the assault. Except for the Bakhmut area there have been reports of about 3-4 Russians per 100 meters in the first line of trenches. If true that's a very sparsely defended front. With the mobile forces that were supposed to back them up moved to Bakhmut, that leaves a defense that is big on fortifications and low on manpower. Unmanned defenses are not really defenses, they may slow down an assault, but won't stop it.
 
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Then you know Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit are closely related (I can somewhat understand Avestan since I've studied Sanskrit). Sthan comes from original Indo-Iranian word and means something like "home land" / "abode". So, Hindustan would mean the place where Hindus reside. It is even today used in our languages to mean that. The common term for a temple is "devasthana" - or abode of the God.

Thats all beside the point ... referring to a group of countries as "those stans" is offensive. Just like we don't say all those "-ia" countries or "-land" countries. Don't do that.
Now I understand you find that offensive. I had no idea. I never met anybody who had that view, any more than referring to 'other lands', or 'other countries' would be in English. I have no wish to offend anybody. Please accept my apologies for causing offense.
 
I think you're too easily offended. I don't take offense when people refer to the nations of the "new world" as the Americas.
I think you have a Eurocentric view of the world.

Yes the "new world" is kind of weird (except when referring to peopling of Americas after the last Ice age).

Iran has legal justification to declare war on the United States.

They are free to do so. I double dare them to.
Sounds like what a bully would say in high school ;)

I find it weird when Russia accuses Ukrain of some drone attack. I mean they have killed 100s of thousands in Ukrain in a brazen invasion ! Why shouldn't Ukrain attack Russia ?
 
You keep pointing this out, but it's kind of meaningless.

Kherson is a city. It is largely intact and about as well fortified as you can get. There were thousands of civilians there and as soon as their retreat was threatened, the troops there pulled out. There was pretty much no way for Ukraine to effectively attack the entrenched Russians in Kherson and the Russians knew it. They lost Kherson, they retreated. The same will happen with Melitipol. There is no special sauce to the Kherson defenders, they lost.

Melitipol is also a big easy to defend city, but there are hundreds of miles of open country the Russians have to defend in order to prevent Melitipol from entering the pocket. Don't kid yourself thinking the Ukrainians are going to make an open attack on Melitipol. They are going to sweep around the city and force the Russians there to withdraw, leaving more equipment behind.

The only reason the Ukrainians didn't push much deeper into the Kherson Oblast at the time is because of the river, not because of the great Russian army.

Very little about the Russian defense of Kherson was impressive and their retreat from the city was orderly mostly because the Ukrainians didn't want to destroy the city trying to extinguish them.

PS: In the country side around Kherson, there were dozens of abandoned positions with large amounts of abandoned equipment.
My read on Kherson is very different . Ukraine tricked Russia into over committing forces into the Kherson province (not city). They did this in the same manner as they are doing today. Exactly the same. The over commitment forced Russia to have to support logistics across a challenged river crossing for too many soldiers and equipment . Ukraine was nibbling around the edges of the defense network but had never broken them. The reason Russia pulled out was to get those VDV units to northern Russia, and they did just that, and they realized they had been duped and were in a logistically difficult position having to supply across the Dnipro. Despite Kherson being full of Ukrainian sympathizers and surely intelligence officers, the Russians withdrew almost every piece of working heavy equipment and nearly all the men. What saves the Russians was the Russian command changing from idiot boy to someone competent. They pulled off another retreat in orderly manner in constant contact with the enemy. F’ing brilliant no matter how they did it. The southern command had wanted to withdraw for sometime. They finally got permission and they were gone. No rout. Cut off, no working bridges and they pulled out tens of thousands of troops and heavy equipment. Ukrainian forces captured almost nothing working in Kherson.

I will be very very surprised if they attempt to capture any of the Sea of Azov ports in the opening push. I fully expect a feint but I believe the first real hard blow to fall elsewhere. When things get to the port cities I expect the Russians to retreat into Crimea and Russia and I do not think there will be too much captured weaponry.

Ukraine is playing a long game . They only received 25% of the tanks they say they needed. They get another 25% over the fall/winter . They are not going to rush things and they will husband these precious resources. Far better to win by trickery and with minimal losses. Far better to pretend (again) to be attacking somewhere and actually attack another place that is weak. 6 principals of Sun Tzu:

“win all without fighting; avoid strength, attack weakness; deception and foreknowledge; speed and preparation; shape your opponent and character-based leadership”

To date the Ukrainian high command has been playing by these principles and I see no reason to think they suddenly became stupid and plan to attack a place they said they will attack, a place that is well defended, a place with smart leadership. Far better to attack where Russia is weak, leadership is poor, and they are Ill prepared.
 
I will be very very surprised if they attempt to capture any of the Sea of Azov ports in the opening push. I fully expect a feint but I believe the first real hard blow to fall elsewhere. When things get to the port cities I expect the Russians to retreat into Crimea and Russia and I do not think there will be too much captured weaponry.

Ukraine is playing a long game . They only received 25% of the tanks they say they needed. They get another 25% over the fall/winter . They are not going to rush things and they will husband these precious resources. Far better to win by trickery and with minimal losses. Far better to pretend (again) to be attacking somewhere and actually attack another place that is weak. 6 principals of Sun Tzu:

“win all without fighting; avoid strength, attack weakness; deception and foreknowledge; speed and preparation; shape your opponent and character-based leadership”

To date the Ukrainian high command has been playing by these principles and I see no reason to think they suddenly became stupid and plan to attack a place they said they will attack, a place that is well defended, a place with smart leadership. Far better to attack where Russia is weak, leadership is poor, and they are Ill prepared.

The problem is that there’s always going to be something in the pipeline which will improve Ukraine’s capacities. More troops trained by NATO, more APCs, more Leopards, the first Abrams, F16s. But at a certain point the risk of waiting for that equipment to arrive starts outweighing the reward. The Russians are not sitting on their hands and are improving their defenses. Their Lancet drone is getting more and more effective. The dry season does not last forever. The political situation in the West could change. There comes a moment when they may have waited too long.
 
I will be very very surprised if they attempt to capture any of the Sea of Azov ports in the opening push. I fully expect a feint but I believe the first real hard blow to fall elsewhere. When things get to the port cities I expect the Russians to retreat into Crimea and Russia and I do not think there will be too much captured weaponry.
I agree but this reminded me of something I found strange. Ukraine's ploy to get Russia to commit troops to Kherson, then attack them in the north worked like a champ. The Russians fell for it even though many analysts explained what the plan was.

Why did Russia fall for it hook, line and sinker?
Have they learned from this mistake?
 
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I agree but this reminded me of something I found strange. Ukraine's ploy to get Russia to commit troops to Kherson, then attack them in the north worked like a champ. The Russians fell for it even though many analysts explained what the plan was.

Why did Russia fall for it hook, line and sinker?
Have they learned from this mistake?
Well only a few russians noticed how badly the lines were thinned out in Kharkiv. Turns out they were not just thin on the lines but there were no functional reserves.

This time I'm not sure. It certainly seems that they are committing the same flaws all over again. The two recent storm shadow attacks were known to be on elites units just moved from Kremina to the south. There are even reports that the Bahkmut reserves are being sent to the south and it might be that they'd give up donbass to hold onto Crimea. Not sure. Clearly the general is a blithering idiot. He's been in charge during all the great failures.