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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Russia has already demonstrated Ukraine's worth in Russian eyes (Bucha as an example).
People are flawed. We all exist somewhere on the scale of corruption.
Where we land on that scale is a fight between our best and worst instincts. Religions learned this a long time ago and have generated detailed stories to demonstrate the point. Then people got involved and proved the point.

Ukraine appears to be trying to move the slider from more to less corruption. This is pissing off Putie (and Trump too) to name a few. Least we high and mighty in the US get any ideas, Biden's kid would not be the focus of so much attention had he not accepted money from the region or a SCOTUS member doing $1/2MM vacations on jurist's salary. I am certain there are a lot more examples in the US of others doing the same (on both sides of the isle).

My point of the above is maybe our proselytizing might be better directed at less corruption with democracy being a byproduct of the effort. Ukraine appears to be moving in the right direction (provided you are not Putie). Pour in the support and make sure it goes to the front without anyone getting rich. I suggest we do not (or do) look back down the supply chain as it is likely there is some corruption going that direction.
 
I'm not sure what your point is. Russia's invasion of Ukraine was wrong, period, no other actions by other countries at different times are relevant. It seems you're just engaging in more "what about-ism", which is equivalent to saying "because person A once killed person B we shouldn't try to stop person C from killing person D".
Translation: don't dare to judge us, but we will happily judge others. Unfortunately many parts of the world don't see it that way, at least that's the impression I have.
 
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Reactions: bhzmark
Sure, Denmark or Nigeria, who cares, they are just all corrupt, aren't they? Unless you have a very short memory, prior to the war there were plenty of accusations in the Western press against Ukraine because of its massive corruption problems, extending right to the top of Zelensky's administration, and its massive deficits in the rule of law. Obviously we don't get to hear much of that any more, to prevent people from wondering if the location of the border in the Donbas is really worth all of this.
Given the US history of attacking other countries, how do you consider Western credibility when we are condemning Russian aggression? We may not like it, but apart from NATO and some staunch allies like Australia, Japan and South Korea support for Ukraine has been lukewarm. Israel hasn't really supported Ukraine either, and better don't even talk about KSA, even though both countries are supposedly US "allies".

JRP3, BitJam and lolachampcar have all already written excellent rebuttals..

I'll just add:

I find it absolutely hilarious that you bring up the Military Dictatorship that is Saudi Arabia in a post complaining about corruption in Ukraine...

And NATO (excluding Hungary and Turkey), Australia, Japan, South Korea and Sweden happen to constitute basically the entire Democratic World...

The Israelis are probably too scared to get nuked.
 
Tank storage counting was interesting, the author put a lot of funds into that effort. So over 2 years left at his best guess. Mostly t72, hundreds of more modern as well.

He did point out that most of the T-80s in storage have stayed there. Those tanks may not be capable of getting running again. The T-80 has a gas turbine engine and maybe those in storage have blown engines with no hope of repair? They seem to have left service in Ukraine too. Few have been seen in months.

The biggest bottleneck for Russia is probably not their tank numbers, but their tank crews
The Russians Aren’t Just Running Out Of Tanks—They’re Running Out Of Tank Crews, Too. And It’s Going To Get Worse.

About a year ago Trent Telenko had a thread about the design of western vs Russian tanks as far as crew survivability goes. Western tanks have been designed to maximize the chances crew members survive losing their tank in combat, while the Russian tank designs have always been cavalier about crew losses and loss of a tank very frequently results in loss of the entire crew.

In a short fight that doesn't make much difference, but in a drawn out war of attrition, it makes a huge difference. He gave an example of a hypothetical fight between an army equipped with T-90s vs one with Abrams and both sides have ample supplies of extra tanks. If in the first engagement, both sides lose, say 10 tanks. If the T-90 side is lucky one person survives from each tank crew. That's 10 people with 20 dead (the T-90 has a crew of three). On the other side the Abrams equipped army has lost 10 people with 30 survivors (crew of 4).

Both sides get new tanks and replacement tank crew members. The T-90 army now has 10 veterans and 20 green crew members in their replacement tanks. The Abrams army has 30 veterans and 10 green crew members. Each veteran has to try and train up 2 people each while the Abrams crews have three vets training each crew member.

Keep repeating this cycle and the T-90s will be mostly equipped with green crew members while the Abrams army will have green crew members, but a lot of veterans to bring along the newbies.

Now compound the problem with what the Russians did stripping all their training facilities of trainers and sending them to combat. The green crew members are now showing up without even knowing the basics of how to operate the tank. The Russian army has been through a few of these cycles now and most of their crews that have been in service a while barely know what's going on. These people are trying to train new crew members who know absolutely nothing.

There were stories last year about Russians running tanks with only two crew members instead of three and that is was widespread. The commander in the turret had to do the job of both commanding the tank and acting as gunner. That would vastly slow down the rate of fire and increase the likelihood the tank would miss something important like something lethal getting a bead on them.

The Ukrainians have taken tanker losses too, but their training has not declined (in many cases it has improved with western help) and they have been much more careful about exposing their tanks to danger. So they have many more veteran crews combined will well trained newbies who at least know what's what inside the tank.

Russia has essentially run out of crews for their tanks and they are substituting amateurs who don't know what they are doing.

Illustrates the point made here by others of the need to pull all useable weapons into service.


Looks like a parade tank. They paint the St George's ribbon on the tanks used for military parades.

About these supposedly leaked documents


This person did a fair bit of analysis on the leaked documents and found a lot of problematic things

In the article you posted, it said the originally posted on a Discord channel by a Filipino gamer. That's an interesting intersection with Ron Watkins who was identified in a documentary on QAnon and the most likely Q. He appeared to slip and admit it in one interview with the documentary maker. Ron Watkins is the son of an American who emigrated to the Philippines and married a Filipino woman. The father owner 8chan (now 8kun) and his son Ron was the technical guy behind the site. If I remember right Ron was also an avid gamer.

After Q fizzled, maybe Ron was trying to create something new to draw attention? Just an idea. There are a lot of people in the Philippines and it could be someone else.

Sometimes I think we shy away from passing along learning - like lessons in empathy - out of political correctness. We need a slightly different balance as too many adults are walking around with patently crazy thoughts spinning around between their ears; thoughts most parents should have dispelled them of at a young age or committed them for if not successful.

Rather than political correctness, a lot of bad parenting is due to parents who have not dealt with their own childhood (or other traumas).

I don't doubt the Imperial message is heartfelt amongst the the nationalists and that it is a recurring theme in the Media outlets, but I find it hard to believe that tail is wagging the dog.

Russia spent years (decades ?) weakening Ukraine from within. They thought an invasion would be easy and swift, and could quasi-reasonably argue that the Russian speaking population favored the intervention, similar to the excuses Hitler would use for invading countries to protect ethnic German minorities.

Beyond that, there is
  1. NG
  2. NG
  3. NG
  4. Oil reserves
  5. Oil reserves
  6. A large, educated population
And beyond that, Russia wanted a disposable buffer between itself and NATO

Russia tried to keep Ukraine weak because it felt it had the right to do so. The resources in Ukraine are a factor too.

A plan was leaked a month or so back about the Russian plan to weaken Belarus to a point where it was part of Russia again.

JRP3, BitJam and lolachampcar have all already written excellent rebuttals..

I'll just add:

I find it absolutely hilarious that you bring up the Military Dictatorship that is Saudi Arabia in a post complaining about corruption in Ukraine...

And NATO (excluding Hungary and Turkey), Australia, Japan, South Korea and Sweden happen to constitute basically the entire Democratic World...

The Israelis are probably too scared to get nuked.

Don't forget Australia and New Zealand on that list. But I do agree, NATO and a relatively few other countries make up the world of liberal democracies. Any country that has elected leaders is sort of a democracy, but there are quite a few that are democracies in name only and there are few guaranteed protections for all people.

And even in liberal democracies the protections are uneven. A lot of electrons and ink have been dedicated to the problems in the American justice system and how some people get better protections than others. Same thing with availability of other government protections and services in not just the US, but other democracies.

However rule of law and protections are better in the developed democracies than in other countries where corruption and capriciousness by officials is much more rampant.

A bit more data on Russia's supposed "winning" in Ukraine

"Actually yes. In last 5 month Ukraine liberated more territory than russia occupied. 0.65% vs 0.12% so Ukraine liberated 5.5 times more territory than russia occupied. Since April 2022 during one year russia occupied only 0.52% (
❗️
) while Ukraine liberated 8.14%."

How is Russia winning when even during the slack period this winter they lost much more territory than they captured?
 
JRP3, BitJam and lolachampcar have all already written excellent rebuttals..

I'll just add:

I find it absolutely hilarious that you bring up the Military Dictatorship that is Saudi Arabia in a post complaining about corruption in Ukraine...

And NATO (excluding Hungary and Turkey), Australia, Japan, South Korea and Sweden happen to constitute basically the entire Democratic World...

The Israelis are probably too scared to get nuked.
They have done nothing of that kind. I do find it rather arrogant to dismiss countries that don't support Ukraine like India (pop. 1.3 billion) and Brazil (pop. >200 million) as basically irrelevant, even though they are ranked well above Ukraine in the EIU Democracy Index.
As to Western criticism of Ukraine for its corruption, it would be nice if you stopped your US navel gazing and looked e.g. at Chatham House's research paper on Ukraine’s "crony capitalism" from as recently as 2021.
 
They have done nothing of that kind. I do find it rather arrogant to dismiss countries that don't support Ukraine like India (pop. 1.3 billion) and Brazil (pop. >200 million) as basically irrelevant, even though they are ranked well above Ukraine in the EIU Democracy Index.
As to Western criticism of Ukraine for its corruption, it would be nice if you stopped your US navel gazing and looked e.g. at Chatham House's research paper on Ukraine’s "crony capitalism" from as recently as 2021.
If we concede that Ukraine had lots of corruption, what do you imagine follows from that? That we should allow Russia to invade any neighboring country that underperforms on the EIU metric? There is corruption in all countries to some degree. That fact and the degree of corruption seems completely independent of the international norm to respect UN and other documented and agreed national boundaries.

And the entire civilized world should strongly signal to any future dictators/mad men that they should not try to take territory from their neighbors. Russia losing this stupid invasion will greatly further long term peace on the planet, especially in Taiwan and similar places that might be targeted by belligerent countries.
 
JRP3, BitJam and lolachampcar have all already written excellent rebuttals.

I'll just add:

I find it absolutely hilarious that you bring up the Military Dictatorship that is Saudi Arabia in a post complaining about corruption in Ukraine...

And NATO (excluding Hungary and Turkey), Australia, Japan, South Korea and Sweden happen to constitute basically the entire Democratic World...

The Israelis are probably too scared to get nuked.
They have done nothing of that kind. [...

You and I are in total disagreement about that. Others reading this thread can draw their own conclusions.
 
I'm not sure where the line is but I fear (especially with some of my posts) that Mods will step in when we use the T word. I do hope we can discuss corruption and moves towards it or away from it as metrics for the quality of democracies in progress. Mods, please give us some runway.
 
...] I do find it rather arrogant to dismiss countries that don't support Ukraine like India (pop. 1.3 billion) and Brazil (pop. >200 million) as basically irrelevant, even though they are ranked well above Ukraine in the EIU Democracy Index.
As to Western criticism of Ukraine for its corruption, it would be nice if you stopped your US navel gazing and looked e.g. at Chatham House's research paper on Ukraine’s "crony capitalism" from as recently as 2021.

Re: EIU Democracy Index
In order to access whatever that is I will have to fill in a form and disclose my mail and phone number. That is not something that I'm going to do.

Re: India
Freedom House gives India a score of 66/100. That is not enough to be ranked as "FREE". Instead india is ranked as "PARTLY FREE".
(India: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House)

Before the Russian Dictator's Genocide in Ukraine the past ~13 months, Freedom House gave Ukraine as score of 61/100. That is not that far behind India. And India wasn't invaded by the Russian Dictator in 2014, so India has not been at war for the last ~8 years... So how much of Ukraine's Democracy Index can be attributed to actions by the Russian Dictator?...

In 2010 Freedom House wrote this about Ukraine:
" ...] The regimes in other authoritarian states on Russia's periphery, including Belarus, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, have shown no signs of abandoning their repressive policies. Ukraine, which has also suffered heavily from the economic downturn and is burdened by enormous corruption problems, remains the only Free state in the nonBaltic former Soviet Union. [My underline and bold.] [..." (https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/2020-03/FIW_2010_Complete_Book_Scan.pdf) It's page number 15 in that PDF (but page number 10 in print).

Ever heard about this?

The Indian Air Force has some 312 Russian fighter jets, some 2000(!) Russian or Russian derived tanks and A LOT of other Russian military equipment... Now given the corruption that took place when India was dealing with Bofors – what do you think happened when they were dealing with Russian military industries?...

Re: Brazil
I was on team Lula in his election against Bolsonaro. But Lula has thoroughly disappointed in his stance regarding Ukraine. And that makes me seriously question the moral compass of both Lula and his political party.
 
policies. Ukraine, which has also suffered heavily from the economic downturn and is burdened by enormous corruption problems, remains the only Free state in the nonBaltic former Soviet Union.
Excellent point. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Ukraine are far and away the most advanced, civilized, democratic, free, educated, etc. countries from the USSR. Whatever country is fifth (maybe Kazakhstan?) is a distant fifth.

Russia of course has descended to the 9th circle of hell and will bring down every other country that it has significant dealings with.
 
I tend to use nationalist or fascist, depending on context. The trumpers may well think of MIckey Mouse, but <<<shrug>>>

Now, 'trump' could also be a stand-in word for traitor, lowlife, mafia or criminal but unless the context is talking about all of those characteristics it is better to specify.
The terms you have used tend to be inflammatory and, when I use them in discussions, things go off the rails in short order. Instead, I've tried to boil it down to correct/wrong - correct/corrupt and the like to keep the light firmly shining on basic inconsistencies when it comes to one voice one vote and the rule of law (what I see as the fundamentals of democracy). I shy away from the Ford v Chevy fight finding it non-productive.
 
Excellent point. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Ukraine are far and away the most advanced, civilized, democratic, free, educated, etc. countries from the USSR. Whatever country is fifth (maybe Kazakhstan?) is a distant fifth. [My underline.]

Russia of course has descended to the 9th circle of hell and will bring down every other country that it has significant dealings with.

Let's not forget about Georgia. Freedom House gives them a score of 58/100. In 2017 they got 64/100. I wonder what that score would have been today if the Russian Dictator hadn't invaded Georgia in 2008...

 
I was on team Lula in his election against Bolsonaro. But Lula has thoroughly disappointed in his stance regarding Ukraine. And that makes me seriously question the moral compass of both Lula and his political party.

In politics, don't confuse support with pragmatism. The Chinese government is supporting the Russian government, so any government that needs support from the Chinese or Russian governments can at best be expected to be neutral.

Developed democratic nations are on their own on this and their peoples should now be woke to their dangerous dependencies.
 
A detailed analysis of Russia tank storage

And something Timothy Snyder has pointed out in several places. The core reason for this war is Putin and Russia believe that Ukraine is not a real place, not a real country (there are a number of other reasons, but this is at the core of it). They believe that about all the former Soviet Republics and pretty much anyone else who was once in the Russian empire.

...
Your position is appealing but is really not very accurate. The truth is far more complex than that and historians such as Timothy Snyder in 'Bloodlines' for example clearly explain that.
The most concise explanation for the crucial role 'the ukraine' and Kiev have had in Russia (that I have seen, anyway), is this one:
"Russia and Ukraine have strong familial bonds that go back centuries. Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital, is sometimes referred to as “the mother of Russian cities,” on par in terms of cultural influence with Moscow and St. Petersburg. It was in Kyiv in the eighth and ninth centuries that Christianity was brought from Byzantium to the Slavic peoples. And it was Christianity that served as the anchor for Kievan Rus, the early Slavic state from which modern Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarussians draw their lineage."

It is folly to imagine that ethnocentric ethnic Russians can really imagine Russia and the Ukraine as separate, indeed they usually see Kiev and environs as the birthplace of the Russian identity, "the mother of Russian cities" as car says above.

That historical base makes powerful motivation for the Russia power base, but is largely meaningless to any of the ethnic minorities that are the core of military enlisted/conscripted forces, many of whom probably know nothing at all about that history and care nothing about it anyway. Through hundreds of years that situation has always been a crucial weakness for Russian forces, compensated in part by technological advances in military equipment that themselves were frequently done in 'the Ukraine'.

As Snyder points out in detail, the breakup of the Soviet Union itself also separated core parts of the Russian identity, especially Ukraine and Georgia. Today there is increasing resistance also in the East with independent Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan reflecting their ancient ties and perhaps the most humiliating being Kazakhstan:

All this is far more threatening to Putin regime that just the loss of Ukraine.
For some reason few people seem to note how consequential it is that formerly quiescent Eastern Republics are asserting themselves in threatening ways. With both East and West threats now strengthening there is a very different situation than there was only six months ago.

I do not pretend to know what all this means. Frankly I doubt anyone knows even inside the Moscow Kremlin. After all China, Iran and Syria are inextricably related to all this and are in lesser ways even Slovakia, Turkey, and others.
 
Re: EIU Democracy Index
...

Re: Brazil
I was on team Lula in his election against Bolsonaro. But Lula has thoroughly disappointed in his stance regarding Ukraine. And that makes me seriously question the moral compass of both Lula and his political party.
I voted against Bolsonaro not for Lula. That was true for several members of my family.
Nobody should think Brazil ever will stand for moral issues over economic pragmatism.
Even in World War II it was pure economic pragmatism that resulted in US support for the steel industry and soon after Brazilian merchant ships sunk by U boats, so brazil finally entered the war in August 1942.

As we consider the state of democracies we also must consider economic realities. The Brazil economy now is heavily dependent on China with which Brazil has a surplus and which is a source fo many crucial products and development.

Then notwithstanding the EIU Democracy rankings, most countries outside the EU and North America are hampered by economic imbalance, dependence on commodity exports and finished goods imports, plus fragile political systems. Much of that can be said about the G7 and other more mature economies.

So, many of the UN Ukraine abstentions are driven mostly by economic self-interest, coupled by long historical aggressions from EU and NATO members. Most such countries simply do not see the Russian invasion fo Ukraine as relevant to them. They often have advantages in commodity exports to and petroleum imports from Russia, and even have some benefits by agricultural and commodity exports that were coming form Ukraine.

Obviously I do not share most of those views. However there was no real difference on those issues between Bolsonaro and Lula, except that Lula is more polite. Country by country the national interest typically ranks above moral imperatives.
 
Like Austin when he said he wants to degrade Russia to the point where they can not threaten their neighbors, I take Lavrov at his word when he says this whole invasion is about establishing a "new world order". I do not speak Russian so I am relying on the translator.


I'm pretty sure from what I have seen and read that I want no part of that new world.