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Olle
Active Member
Define "tons of money". After spending billions on preparing for production it might not be a bad idea to spend a few more bucks on the "final smackdown" We shall find out in a couple of months.
BMW M3 is a good handling car not just because of CG, tires, or suspension tunings. It also has a very well made electronic differential that manages torque between inside and outside wheels on acceleration and deceleration in corners. Also, suspension tuning is not just about damping and spring rates, but also the suspension geometry and the steering rack setup. These are things they learn through years of racing, just like Porsche, Audi, Chevy, and etc. Tesla can build a good handling Model 3 for the street, but I suspect it'll be a few generations before it can run with established sports sedans on tracks, especially if Tesla never gets into real racing to gain knowledge.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
The [rear] differential certainly seems to be the top candidate for M3's weakest spot. Unless Tesla decides to really make a point on the track and figure out how to work in at least a passable LSD rather than using the brakes?
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Quaife had a Model S version already (it's drop-in replacement). Quaife also is a direct parts supplier for auto manufacturers, so Tesla could swap early access (to develop their own product for M3s) + cash + promise to by Quaife for the M3 P to get Quaife to develop a custom drop-in replacement. That's a passable solution on decent budget, I suspect?
A good aftermarket LSD will definitely help, but I don't think a mechanical LSD works as well as an electronic actuated multi clutch differential. I do think Tesla could eventually build a car with separate motors for left and right and simulate differential that way. Don't think brake based system will last the time on a track unless it's carbon ceramic brakes.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
Agreed, it'll still need to compensate in other ways to present as a overall credible contender.
Surely carbon ceramic is given if they are "serious" but even then 1st principles are unfriendly to the approach.
Almost certainly the 2020 Roadster will in the rear at least, considering what they claim it'll do.
T34ME
Active Member
And I love the generous use of alcantara throughout the interior. This is class!
Given that they have already said that the new Roadster will have three motors I think that is a sure thing. In fact they may be using the Performance Model 3 as a early test bed for getting three "smaller" motors working in one vehicle before going all out on the Roadster. They can put it out there for people to hammer on it and get some good feedback and data to help make the Roadster even better.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
That strikes me as quite hopeful thinking. That represents a LOT of engineering work to put into the P.
Yeah, but I can dream can't I?
What gives me hope is that between the demo of the Roadster and that they already have four Model 3 motors working together on the Tesla Semi that maybe they already have it worked out and they could just use the extra real world testing. I think it would make a hell of a surprise for a lot of people.
So next time someone sees a Model 3 test car at the tracker gets some pictures of under the rear as well! (Though it would probably all be concealed by aero panels.)
Snow Drift
[Off-Road Assist] Activated
The Saleen modified Model S had a mechanical LSD.
FOURSIXTEEN | Saleen
“Also new for the FOURSIXTEEN is a Saleen specific MAXGRIPTM locking differential that allows each wheel to efficiently apply rotational force and maximize traction and grip in performance environments.”
FOURSIXTEEN | Saleen
“Also new for the FOURSIXTEEN is a Saleen specific MAXGRIPTM locking differential that allows each wheel to efficiently apply rotational force and maximize traction and grip in performance environments.”
To get the Model 3P to handle as well as the BMW M3 I'd say thousands of hours on the track and a van-full of engineers, working on a chassis that has already gone through many evolutionary phases. Even if that were reality, I'm not sure what universe it ever ends up being a "smackdown", "not holding a candle", "collapsing sales", or anything else that I can only assume is actually just hyperbole.
So....how much effort do you think it will take, and how much better than the BMW do you think Tesla can make the Model 3P?
A different but more applicable question is: Why does the model 3P need to outhandle the BMW M3? Beside the fact that Tesla doesn't have the technical capability to do so (as noted earlier), beside the fact that they don't have the resources to do so (there's plenty of actual problems at Tesla for engineering teams to tackle...), there's zero demand for them to do so. Nobody who is buying a model 3P needs it to outhandle the BMW.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
It doesn't need to out handle an M3 but I don't think I'm going to get one if it's just a power and tire upgrade like the Model S/X performance versions. Plenty of people want a real performance version. Another reason to do it is to get better reviews from automotive journalists who in general love performance models.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Tesla is concentrating on well performing street vehicles at this time. Track performance will come along in it's own time.
99% of all BMW's never enter a race. Just a few even go to performance track driving classes.
99% of all BMW's never enter a race. Just a few even go to performance track driving classes.
The question is, what is considered real performance? Something comparable to a 3 series M-Performance package handling with good acceleration? Something similar to a Hellcat with good handling? Or something similar to a C63 or M3 with very good acceleration and performance? Also, is acceleration only 0-60, or should Tesla also look to improve 1/4 miles and high speed acceleration too? As fast as P100DL Model S is, it's not quite ready to compete against the M5, E63S, and others once we are looking at 100mph+ performance. On US street, that may not matter, but it's noticeable when comparison is done on big tracks or places like Autobahn.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Tesla doesn't need the small potential additional press or demand that such a vehicle would create. Small return for large effort. They might do it anyway but there is no rational reason for them to do so.
Olle
Active Member
Ok. It's like asking how much effort it would it take to make an F22 Raptor handle better than a Spitfire.
I am actually a long term BMW enthusiast and shareholder so please don't think I'm saying this to bash them. But I had to admit that especially P85+ handled intrinsically better than M3 and M5 with its fundamentally better geometry, weight distribution and power control. It has much better bones than them and is not tuned to the same degree. The beemers feel like they outperform it in raw cornering power though due to much higher tire width to weight ratio, diff and perhaps stiffer bushings and stiffer anti roll bars. I am talking production cars not track prepped M3s.
Because of the intrinsic chassis advantages, Tesla could IMHO fix this in a week if there is room for wide enough wheels, if they are willing to sacrifice a lot of range and if they are willing to add the extra version of a lot of chassis and wheel parts. While Tesla probably easily can make a BMW M3 killer, I'm not sure that it is willing to add the production complexity with all the extra parts versions needed.
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Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I autocross so I consider that real performance
I would say that the for Model 3 the BMW 3 series is the benchmark. Therefore the performance version should be compared to the M3 or maybe the M-performance package depending on price. Competing with ICE vehicles for 100mph+ performance is probably not worth the compromises.Olle is right that the Model 3 has a more sophisticated suspension than the 3 series, front multilink vs. strut. The bones are good it's just a matter of proper tuning. And of course beefing up the tires, brakes, and cooling.
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