SB 6586 - Do NOT let this happen!

[Magnetic]

Mileage based, vs registration and charging taxes...

I had thought a per mile fee would be a good approach, same would hold true for a flat registration fee, then I looked at my driving over 40K miles and realized >70% is out of state. Visiting family, friends, sporting events, vacations, etc. My wife drives <10 miles per day 5 days a week, so double it and make it 20 or even 30 miles per day, I'll even make it 7 days a week for fun; 30 * 365 = ~11k, I did 40K, so ~30k is out of state. In this case I am way way way over paying in a mileage based formula, same would hold true for a flat registration fee. I also live on the state border. Unfortunately you can't argue same for gas tax, because I'd be filling up out of state when traveling. So maybe an electric fee at the charging stations would work, but if I am home charging and/or self sufficient, solar, wind, etc how does this get accounted for? Am I an outlier, all the folks who travel out of state each day for work, how do you account for them? They could charge at home but be driving out of state. Tricky situation. Tax at the charging stations - well those on the border drive across and charge up, but if each state taxed at the charger moot point. So maybe it is the charger, how do you account for home charging, separate meter introduces another cost and who reports it and collects it, electric company? I think it is going to have to revolve around the charger to be fair, you will still will have home charging issues.

Tax combo Registration and charging station:
How do you collect for at home charging or at work charging? For argument sake let Work deal with that problem of charging at work. Self reporting, uh no, not that folks tell fibs and don't want to pay the govt anything. Ev tax at registration. If you add in a registration fee it has to be low, because you are already going to pay tax at the chargers for all those who don't have home charging capabilities. How do you balance it, Home chargers would be paying less tax than folks who have to use a charging station and pay the charging tax. The out of state driving is addressed by the charging stations you use out of state, you didn't have to pay mileage fees in state for miles not driven on your in state roads. Those who work and charge out of state or charge at home would be addressed by the registration fee which unfortunately is the same registration fee as those also getting taxed at the chargers. Not a perfect solution, but getting closer. Charging station tax seems fair, but again how do you tax home/work charging will the registration fee properly account for them? What is the higher percentage of the EV population, Home charging or Charging stations and do you set the registration fee based off of this percentage? Not a ideal solution but a starting point.

Tax amount:
Still what is the fair and honest amount to charge for wear and tear on the highways, that is a separate and lively issue. First one must figure out how to properly apply a tax formula. Clearly flat registration fees will not be fair nor will miles...

 

[N8DGR8]

The light hybrids will get creamed by this. People will pay extra to not get the hybrid option. The new Dodge Ram is a perfect example. Paying 2 cents per mile for a modest increase in fuel economy doesn’t make economic sense. The tax is higher than the gas savings. The only way to do this is to get rid of the gas tax and charge everyone the same rate.

 

[ChrisH]

Mileage based, vs registration and charging taxes...

I had thought a per mile fee would be a good approach, same would hold true for a flat registration fee, then I looked at my driving over 40K miles and realized >70% is out of state. Visiting family, friends, sporting events, vacations, etc. My wife drives <10 miles per day 5 days a week, so double it and make it 20 or even 30 miles per day, I'll even make it 7 days a week for fun; 30 * 365 = ~11k, I did 40K, so ~30k is out of state. In this case I am way way way over paying in a mileage based formula, same would hold true for a flat registration fee. I also live on the state border. Unfortunately you can't argue same for gas tax, because I'd be filling up out of state when traveling. So maybe an electric fee at the charging stations would work, but if I am home charging and/or self sufficient, solar, wind, etc how does this get accounted for? Am I an outlier, all the folks who travel out of state each day for work, how do you account for them? They could charge at home but be driving out of state. Tricky situation. Tax at the charging stations - well those on the border drive across and charge up, but if each state taxed at the charger moot point. So maybe it is the charger, how do you account for home charging, separate meter introduces another cost and who reports it and collects it, electric company? I think it is going to have to revolve around the charger to be fair, you will still will have home charging issues.

Tax combo Registration and charging station:
How do you collect for at home charging or at work charging? For argument sake let Work deal with that problem of charging at work. Self reporting, uh no, not that folks tell fibs and don't want to pay the govt anything. Ev tax at registration. If you add in a registration fee it has to be low, because you are already going to pay tax at the chargers for all those who don't have home charging capabilities. How do you balance it, Home chargers would be paying less tax than folks who have to use a charging station and pay the charging tax. The out of state driving is addressed by the charging stations you use out of state, you didn't have to pay mileage fees in state for miles not driven on your in state roads. Those who work and charge out of state or charge at home would be addressed by the registration fee which unfortunately is the same registration fee as those also getting taxed at the chargers. Not a perfect solution, but getting closer. Charging station tax seems fair, but again how do you tax home/work charging will the registration fee properly account for them? What is the higher percentage of the EV population, Home charging or Charging stations and do you set the registration fee based off of this percentage? Not a ideal solution but a starting point.

Tax amount:
Still what is the fair and honest amount to charge for wear and tear on the highways, that is a separate and lively issue. First one must figure out how to properly apply a tax formula. Clearly flat registration fees will not be fair nor will miles...

weight and pay per mile are fair. They just have to create a system that accounts for out of state driving vs in state driving. Weight and miles on the roads are what cause a lot of the need for repairs. So, a flat fee based on weight categories, plus a per mile charge.

 

[ralph142]

surely theres a thread dedicated to political ranting ?

 

[PLUS EV]

Anyone have an odometer rollback hack?

This law is heavily flawed in terms of rate and pushes away from basically all EVs and most hybrids.

The state has no infrastructure for how this is reported or paid. Am I to go to the DMV every year and have my odometer read? Do I only pay tax on miles driven in Washington or is Washington going to tax apply an interstate tax? I mostly drive in Oregon where I already enjoy a lovely income tax that pays for services that I can not use and do not have access to. Now I will pay road maintenance in Washington for roads I don't drive on at a higher rate than a Hummer towing a 12000 lbs trailer.

I drive about 50k miles/year and about 40k of those miles are out of state

 

[whitex]

I drive about 50k miles/year and about 40k of those miles are out of state

Sounds like your car should be registered out of state. RTA tax savings alone would probably well exceed the cost of keeping an LLC in another state (assuming you have the cars registered in Seattle, as per your location).

 

[mister yub]

Y’all, read the bill. It gets rid of the other EV fees. It’s bad, but not end of the world bad.

 

[MarkBrokeIt]

Y’all, read the bill. It gets rid of the other EV fees. It’s bad, but not end of the world bad.

Just one of the fees (I think the $75 one?). There are still other EV-specific fees.

 

[Seattle Tom]

This bill is awful for a host of reasons, but the primary one is the government intrusion into my vehicle. I’m not sharing how many miles I drive with the state. Full stop. They can pass whatever law they like.

How far away are we from them cataloging the miles I drive on city/county roads vs highways to “optimize” the tax for my usage? What about when I cross state lines to ensure I’m taxed properly for Idaho? Just give me a flat fee for my vehicle - which you already do at a high rate.

China has this capability already with the trackers built into every single car in that country. But this ain’t China, chief. I know our totalitarian-minded politicians in Washington wish it was, but this tax is garbage.

 

[JudgeSmails]

Use this link to comment on the bill! Washington State Legislature

I just commented. It was very easy and seems like it will go directly to your personal representatives. These taxes are insane and unacceptable. I'll move or license my vehicle somewhere else before I pay them.

 

[ralph142]

This bill is awful for a host of reasons, but the primary one is the government intrusion into my vehicle. I’m not sharing how many miles I drive with the state. Full stop. They can pass whatever law they like.

How far away are we from them cataloging the miles I drive on city/county roads vs highways to “optimize” the tax for my usage? What about when I cross state lines to ensure I’m taxed properly for Idaho? Just give me a flat fee for my vehicle - which you already do at a high rate.

China has this capability already with the trackers built into every single car in that country. But this ain’t China, chief. I know our totalitarian-minded politicians in Washington wish it was, but this tax is garbage.

To try to take some positive approach here, how would you propose to tax alternative fuel vehicles which skip essentially all fuel based road taxes in some fair way?

 

[ChrisH]

This bill is awful for a host of reasons, but the primary one is the government intrusion into my vehicle. I’m not sharing how many miles I drive with the state. Full stop. They can pass whatever law they like.

How far away are we from them cataloging the miles I drive on city/county roads vs highways to “optimize” the tax for my usage? What about when I cross state lines to ensure I’m taxed properly for Idaho? Just give me a flat fee for my vehicle - which you already do at a high rate.

China has this capability already with the trackers built into every single car in that country. But this ain’t China, chief. I know our totalitarian-minded politicians in Washington wish it was, but this tax is garbage.

Lol ummm shouldn’t we be taxed for the road use we do? What you described here would be the most fair taxing possible if all vehicles were taxed exactly for where they drove and how often. But they are too lazy to figure out how to do that and there are privacy concerns of course. Why do you care if people know how many miles you drive?

 

[BarryL]

Thanks for sending link to state legislators. Gave them a piece of my mind.. like they care or will take note.

WA State pulls this crap, and I’ll move to another state. Ridiculous

 

[mister yub]

Just one of the fees (I think the $75 one?). There are still other EV-specific fees.

SB 6586: “Sec. 3. RCW 46.17.324 (Transportation electrification fee) and 2019 c 287 s 23 are each repealed.”

RCW 46.17.324: “(1) A vehicle that both (a) uses at least one method of propulsion that is capable of being reenergized by an external source of electricity and (b) is capable of traveling at least thirty miles using only battery power, is subject to an annual seventy-five dollar transportation electrification fee to be collected by the department, county auditor, or other agent or subagent appointed by the director, in addition to any other fees and taxes required by law. For administrative efficiencies, the transportation electrification fee must be collected at the same time as vehicle registration renewals and may only be collected for vehicles that are renewing an annual vehicle registration.” This $75 fee is repealed.


RCW 46.17.323: “(1) Before accepting an application for an annual vehicle registration renewal for a vehicle that both (a) uses at least one method of propulsion that is capable of being reenergized by an external source of electricity and (b) is capable of traveling at least thirty miles using only battery power, the department, county auditor or other agent, or subagent appointed by the director must require the applicant to pay a one hundred dollar fee in addition to any other fees and taxes required by law. The one hundred dollar fee is due only at the time of annual registration renewal.
...
(4)(a) In addition to the fee established in subsection (1) of this section, before accepting an application for an annual vehicle registration renewal for a vehicle that both (i) uses at least one method of propulsion that is capable of being reenergized by an external source of electricity and (ii) is capable of traveling at least thirty miles using only battery power, the department, county auditor or other agent, or subagent appointed by the director must require the applicant to pay a fifty dollar fee.” It would seem at first glance that the other $175 is untouched by this bill.

However, “(5) This section applies to annual vehicle registration renewals until the effective date of enacted legislation that imposes a vehicle miles traveled fee or tax.” so the new $175 fee is indeed also gone.

 

[ralph142]

^^. Good. But, on a per mile basis, the new tax is effectively twice the per mile rate on a 30 mpg ICE. It taxes BEVs as if they were 14 mpg ICE vehicles, worse for a PHEV, since they would still also pay the liquid fuels per gallon tax, and 2 cents a mile. This is treating a bev as the equivalent of and old f-150/suburban/Tahoe. Further it’s flat, so does not even indirectly incentivize moving towards more efficiency, like the existing tax structure.

I’ve not looked but I wonder if this doesn’t originate with the Koch bro’s ALEC. It’s certainly anti Ev.

I would happily pay an annual registration ‘tax’ based on some rational, transparent average: say the equivalent of a 30 mpg car driven 12k miles a year at $0.494/ gallon =~ $170, to avoid the intrusiveness and new bureaucratic structure necessary for this per mile tax to work. But I would also argue that we should pay less than an ICE vehicle to incentivize use of less polluting, more efficient vehicles. So maybe tax at the average mpge, or my specific rated mpge ?

my local reps and senator are all pretty far right, so I wonder how the balance of anti tax and pro fossil fuels works for them on this. So far crickets from attempts to contact them, but Doug ericsen may well be off lobbying for whatever country is paying him this week so doesn’t know much. ‘ The senator will get back to you’, says his office, so definitely holding my breath. I would guess, based on history, that the pro fossil fuel stance wins his heart here.

 

[CrayZ1]

To try to take some positive approach here, how would you propose to tax alternative fuel vehicles which skip essentially all fuel based road taxes in some fair way?

Cars are sold with a sales tax. Every year you get an ownership tax (registration tax). To own property you pay property taxes.
So, you can front load the costs, you can pay-as-you-go, or you can tax the people who benefit most from having roads.

Or you can punish people for driving electric cars instead. What's happening is cars/trucks are getting much better fuel economy since the invention of DI. Raising gas taxes to compensate is wildly unpopular. However, to the general public, taxing EV makes them happy.

 

[MarkBrokeIt]

@mister yub - Thanks for the detective work. I did my best to try to track that info down, but their website certainly makes it more difficult than it needs to be.

Also, thank you for reading the bill (seems like many in the thread have not).

 

[Jeff Davlt]

^^. Good. But, on a per mile basis, the new tax is effectively twice the per mile rate on a 30 mpg ICE. It taxes BEVs as if they were 14 mpg ICE vehicles, worse for a PHEV, since they would still also pay the liquid fuels per gallon tax, and 2 cents a mile. This is treating a bev as the equivalent of and old f-150/suburban/Tahoe. Further it’s flat, so does not even indirectly incentivize moving towards more efficiency, like the existing tax structure.

I’ve not looked but I wonder if this doesn’t originate with the Koch bro’s ALEC. It’s certainly anti Ev.

I would happily pay an annual registration ‘tax’ based on some rational, transparent average: say the equivalent of a 30 mpg car driven 12k miles a year at $0.494/ gallon =~ $170, to avoid the intrusiveness and new bureaucratic structure necessary for this per mile tax to work. But I would also argue that we should pay less than an ICE vehicle to incentivize use of less polluting, more efficient vehicles. So maybe tax at the average mpge, or my specific rated mpge ?

my local reps and senator are all pretty far right, so I wonder how the balance of anti tax and pro fossil fuels works for them on this. So far crickets from attempts to contact them, but Doug ericsen may well be off lobbying for whatever country is paying him this week so doesn’t know much. ‘ The senator will get back to you’, says his office, so definitely holding my breath. I would guess, based on history, that the pro fossil fuel stance wins his heart here.

The biggest problem with these fees is that they disincentavise EV adoption when we should be promoting it. We should continue to give tax credits to adopters until we have many more EVs on the roadway.

 

[wenkan]

Some times I feel it better to have every major road tolled. Charging by plate is pretty simple nowadays.

 

[bruce4000]

Did some research while I lay in bed with a bad bad cold. At first blush it sounds like a Koch brother / oil company conspiracy. However, looking at the four bill sponsors, they all show as Democrats from Seattle, Tacoma, north Pudget sound districts if I’m looking at the map right.
To me the over riding principle is that EVs should pay their fare share for the roads but not anymore than an equivalent ice vehicle. Unfortunately the current gas tax worked well as it accounted roughly for weight, pollution, and out of state miles. Also taxed the illegal economy since had to pay at the pump. As others have said, I don’t see a similar easy to implement solution due to home charging. I hate the idea of tolls but tolling all major roads and then a registration fee based on mpge may be the way to go. They want to toll all the freeways anyway. If we do end up with mileage based, it better not be the equivalent of a big pickup for a sedan
Senate sponsors are;
Saldana 37th, Hobbs 44th, Lilas 21st, Conway 29th.