Scuba diving

[dirkhh]

I was going by this article: Best Dive Computer Reviews of 2015
That lists these four computers for beginners:

• Oceanic Geo 2 ($400)
• Cressi Leonardo ($270)
• Suunto Zoop ($200)
• Mares Puck Pro ($270)

This article adds two more: 3 DIVE COMPUTERS FOR BEGINNERS - DIVE Magazine

• Oceanic Veo ($200)
• Mares Smart ($400)

So a 2x price difference for some. Would you suggest any of these over the Zoop?

Also, I had already downloaded Subsurface. As you can imagine, I'm a sucker for data logging apps.

Oh yeah, the annual "which vendor pays the highest ad fees for our magazin" review. Completely useless. I have used every single one of the dive computers on this list (well, that's not true, for two of them I "only" have used "sister models" - I have about 25 dive computers right now). I wouldn't recommend a single one of them. Absolutely 100% stay away from anything Mares. Don't even think about a "single button dive computer". They drive you to alcoholism.
Seriously, on this list I think I'd take the Zoop simply because with that you waste the least money.
Yes, the dive computers that I prefer are maybe in the slightly higher price range. But you get what you pay for.

Let's say I recommend you buy a Tesla Model S. Your list above has a 2011 Nissan Leaf base model, no extras (that's the Zoop), a couple of Chevy Cruze models and two or three Dodge Aveners.

Your pick

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You'll start an opinion war with a request like that

For me reliability is the #1 factor, and I trust Suunto to deliver that.

You are right. This will start an opinion war. What horror, we hate those on TMC.

So here are two links with a few comments on dive computers and why a buddy and I like some of them and not others. And you'll see some of the things we dislike about the earlier Suunto computers...

Linus Dive Computer Ramblings | Subsurface
Dirks Dive Computer Ramblings | Subsurface

 

[HankLloydRight]

Yes, the dive computers that I prefer are maybe in the slightly higher price range. But you get what you pay for.

Ok, what is "slightly higher price range"?

And what would you recommend for a beginner diver?

thanks

 

[dirkhh]

Ok, what is "slightly higher price range"?

And what would you recommend for a beginner diver?

thanks

Did you note my comment on the 2011 Nissan Leaf vs a Model S? The example wasn't completely random as the relative prices match.
I don't believe in "beginner" computers. I believe a diver should have a good dive computer that gives them all the data they need at a glance. That is readable in every situation without having to press buttons. And that is easy to set up.

My current clear favorite (in my mind right now the best dive computer on the market) is the Suunto EON Steel. ~$1400 - so there's you P90DL
If you'd rather go with the 90D you could look for an Atomics Aquatics Cobalt 2 - ~$1300 but you can usually find demo models around $900
Or if you think you don't need air integration (so you don't think you want to be able to tell your remaining air time by just looking at your dive computer) you could get a Shearwater Perdix for about $800 - so here's you Model S 70



All three are excellent dive computers that will keep you happy for at least a decade. Not starter computers that will make you curse after ten dives and regret that you bought them.

PS: based on our interactions here on the forum and our work on tracking the firmware data I made the assumption that you care about data, care about quality UI design and care about having excellent equipment... and based on the car you drive I also made the bold assumption that you are able to afford a decent dive computer...

 

[augkuo]

Just let the dive master(s) know that this will be your first official dive so that they can plan accordingly. If you don't have a dive buddy, they'll pair you up with someone - then during the dive just stay close to the dive master(s).
I would take dramamine the night before for seasickness (you don't want to throw up in your regulator!), don't eat too much before the dive and maybe err on putting some extra weight on your belt/bcd. When you get into the water, if
you start freaking out, just submerge your head in the water, stay by the boat/moor line and calm down before you head deeper. Don't get too close to the other divers (they can kick your regulator out/mask off, etc.) and watch your
surroundings as you dive. Also if you are renting a bcd, sometimes the air doesn't come out too easily so roll on your back to force air out if you don't hear the bubbles rush out. If you feel that you're constantly flippering to stay at a
certain depth then just add a little more air to your bcd. The most important thing is to always stay calm, don't move too much and never pop up to the surface.

Hope that helps!

Hi folks,

I got PADI open water certified about a year ago in Utila. In about two weeks, my g/f and I are going to a Sandals resort in St. Lucia that includes scuba diving. I also just took a local PADI refresher class tonight. But in reality, the St. Lucia trip will be my first "real" dives not part of my OW certification. I also will be diving alone (I mean with anyone I know -- my g/f doesn't dive). So I'm a little apprehensive about going on a real dive boat with real divers I won't know, and I'm about as noob as one can get.

Any words of wisdom?

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Oh, and by the way, I never got a chance to try out different dive computers last year, so I think I'm just going to go with a SUUNTO ZOOP. Looks like it has the largest, clearest display, for my aging eyes.

Dirk, how do you get such amazing photos?

 

[HankLloydRight]

PS: based on our interactions here on the forum and our work on tracking the firmware data I made the assumption that you care about data, care about quality UI design and care about having excellent equipment... and based on the car you drive I also made the bold assumption that you are able to afford a decent dive computer...

You are absolutely correct on all counts.


But as a beginning diver not sure if I'll "get the bug" to graduate to a real hobby/activity and commit to more than one trip per year, or after this trip I'll decide that it's not for me.


Given that, I don't want to drop $800 on a dive computer I may use 6 times and then need to sell "used".


So I guess I'll go for the "least money wasted" VOOP.

Thanks for your insights!

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Another question: GoPro.

Mask mount, head band, or hand-held?

Or not at all?

I already have a mask I like, so I don't want to buy one of the GoPro masks with a mount built in. And I heard headband mounts can get in the way and also get lost if not well tethered. And a friend says hand-held is very distracting for a novice diver.

 

[dirkhh]

You are absolutely correct on all counts.


But as a beginning diver not sure if I'll "get the bug" to graduate to a real hobby/activity and commit to more than one trip per year, or after this trip I'll decide that it's not for me.


Given that, I don't want to drop $800 on a dive computer I may use 6 times and then need to sell "used".


So I guess I'll go for the "least money wasted" VOOP.

Or you borrow a computer from someone until the bug gets you. Which I would assume takes no more than one good dive trip.
A few suggestions for the first trip. Make sure you do at least six dives, but no more than two a day.
Why? It takes a couple of dives before you relax and actually enjoy what's going on. But more than two dives a day might tire you our, might be hard on your ears, might be hard on your relationship with your GF

Another question: GoPro.

Mask mount, head band, or hand-held?

Or not at all?

I already have a mask I like, so I don't want to buy one of the GoPro masks with a mount built in. And I heard headband mounts can get in the way and also get lost if not well tethered. And a friend says hand-held is very distracting for a novice diver.

Your 16 y/o nephew just got a driving permit and asks you which hand is better to use for texting while driving, the left hand or the right hand.
Same answer.
DEFINITELY not at all. Neither on the mask nor anywhere else. Not until you had a couple dozen dives.

(OK, maybe the latter part of the answer is not the same for the nephew)

 

[ecarfan]

Hank, as someone who got certified 30 years ago, has dove all over the world, and have sometimes taken a break for a year or two, all I can tell you is to not let anyone rush you when gearing up or getting into the water, find a responsible grown up to buddy with (not easy on a boat with strangers, I know) and have them check your gear before jumping in, and don't assume the "divemaster" knows best. Some are very good, some are almost useless.
Dirk, my current dive computer is a Suunto Cobra air integrated unit. It replaced an Orca Edge that I bought in 1988. I still have the Edge, can't bear to part with it but don't use it.

 

[smac]

Dirk, interesting links. (And yes opinion wars on fora in general are hardly rare )

TBH I dive Nitrox on week long liveaboards with 4+ dives per day so I've had zero problems with RGBM's conservatism. (Especially as it's highly likely a few on board will scrimp on the cost of Nitrox and so you get limited by someone running air on the group pickup dives).

I guess it really depends on the sort of diving you do, and if you ever hit this as a limit in your diving career (many won't in my experience, I'd wager only a small number go beyond PADI advanced cert, and even then let it go rusty). I think Linus's comments are accurate in that for many air is the limit not deco time (especially on guided tour vacation style trips, where you can guarantee someone running out before the rest).

On the flipside I've seen plenty of others with far more expensive gear thumb dives, or run around scrounging tables pre-dive due to computer failure.

The Steel looks a nice bit of kit, and I keep eyeing them up at the LDS. Interesting to hear the integration is more solid. I'm 100% happy with my plain old SPG and haven't bothered with integration. I view it as one more thing to go wrong. Though this approach is somewhat skewed by the glitches of early Suunto stuff I've seen.

If Hank gets 50 dives out of a Zoop, it's more than capable of taking him up to Rescue Diver, and by then it's paid for itself in rental charges (And then he'd be in a good place to determine exactly what features he likes himself firsthand for any upgrade.)

 

[HankLloydRight]

A few suggestions for the first trip. Make sure you do at least six dives, but no more than two a day.
Why? It takes a couple of dives before you relax and actually enjoy what's going on. But more than two dives a day might tire you our, might be hard on your ears, might be hard on your relationship with your GF

Your 16 y/o nephew just got a driving permit and asks you which hand is better to use for texting while driving, the left hand or the right hand.
Same answer.
DEFINITELY not at all. Neither on the mask nor anywhere else. Not until you had a couple dozen dives.

Dirk, your analogies are golden.

I am only planning two dives per day. My g/f (fiance, actually) is a fiction writer on deadline, so she'll be writing while I'm diving (i.e. two morning dives) and then we'll do something together in the afternoon (or vise-versa). We're there for 4 full days, so I think I'll try to do 8 dives total (also not flying the same day as diving).

I remember that my very last dive when I got certified last year was great -- I finally felt my I had my buoyancy under good control, good breathing, etc. I could actually enjoy the dive and not worry so much about remembering everything.

I just hope not to get on a dive boat with a bunch of young, experienced, cocky kids where I'm the only "old guy".

 

[dirkhh]

Dirk, interesting links. (And yes opinion wars on fora in general are hardly rare )

TBH I dive Nitrox on week long liveaboards with 4+ dives per day so I've had zero problems with RGBM's conservatism. (Especially as it's highly likely a few on board will scrimp on the cost of Nitrox and so you get limited by someone running air on the group pickup dives).

I guess it really depends on the sort of diving you do, and if you ever hit this as a limit in your diving career (many won't in my experience, I'd wager only a small number go beyond PADI advanced cert, and even then let it go rusty). I think Linus's comments are accurate in that for many air is the limit not deco time (especially on guided tour vacation style trips, where you can guarantee someone running out before the rest).

On the flipside I've seen plenty of others with far more expensive gear thumb dives, or run around scrounging tables pre-dive due to computer failure.

The Steel looks a nice bit of kit, and I keep eyeing them up at the LDS. Interesting to hear the integration is more solid. I'm 100% happy with my plain old SPG and haven't bothered with integration. I view it as one more thing to go wrong. Though this approach is somewhat skewed by the glitches of early Suunto stuff I've seen.

If Hank gets 50 dives out of a Zoop, it's more than capable of taking him up to Rescue Diver, and by then it's paid for itself in rental charges (And then he'd be in a good place to determine exactly what features he likes himself firsthand for any upgrade.)

So Linus and I constantly cause trouble as we have few dives under an hour... or we wouldn't have a lot of dives under an hour if the dive guides wouldn't keep ending the dives when the other divers are out of air
And yes, we have run into RGBM conservatism issues on many of our dive trips. To the point where he set his HelO2 to "conservativity -2" because it got so annoying... we each usually have three or four dive computers with us (or more) and it's quite obvious how much of an outlier the older Suuntos are.

I didn't go into my whole rant that given my experience I wouldn't go on a dive with just a single dive computer. For most normal people that's excessive. But the number of dive computer malfunctions that we have observed in the last few years is eye opening (of course the fact that we take several with us for testing purposes also increases the chance that one of them fails).

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I just hope not to get on a dive boat with a bunch of young, experienced, cocky kids where I'm the only "old guy".

I love getting on boats with a bunch of young, experienced, cocky kids and I'm the old guy. And then when they come up after 45 minutes because they are out of air I casually mention "dang, that could have been a good dive... why did we come up at half tank"...
(yes, I'm an arrogant bastard and a bad person - reading along here that should be obvious to everyone)

 

[smac]

So Linus and I constantly cause trouble as we have few dives under an hour... or we wouldn't have a lot of dives under an hour if the dive guides wouldn't keep ending the dives when the other divers are out of air

That's the problem with holiday group dives... you are restricted to the weakest link.


I took my drysuit to Sharm on one January trip. At first people thought I was an idiot, but being cold is no fun, and people were thumbing the dives on this basis.

Teasing people about air consumption is one thing, but the "Aura of Smugness" a dry suit provides on the RIB on the way back to the big boat requires no spoken words

 

[HankLloydRight]

, and people were thumbing the dives on this basis.

Thumbing dives means ending a dive, or not doing it at all?

 

[smac]

Thumbing dives means ending a dive, or not doing it at all?

Sorry slang. "Thumbs up" as in the signal to return to the surface.

So you could be cold, you could be low on air, you could be limited by the computer saying you have been down too long, you could have an equipment failure.... TBH you could just not be "feeling it"

Ultimately the more people on the dive the more chances something would happen to one of the members of your group that would cause you to end your dive prematurely. By the book you are in buddy pairs, but practically on boat dives (especially pickups) it's not uncommon practice for the dive operators to want everyone out the water in close proximity.

It's happened to everyone that you are first to need to surface, and there is zero shame in it, it's par for the course, and if anyone moans frankly they are being a d1ck. You are being safe which is priority #1

Typically holiday diving is a bit like a set menu. For the ultimate dive experience you have to get good enough to feel confident to go diving with a trusted buddy (and it's hard to find one you implicitly trust) effectively outside the regimented dive scenario, and onto something more "A La Carte" Don't rush it though, this won't come over night and needs 100's of dives.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Thanks.

 

[HankLloydRight]

What do you guys think of bailout bottles, like "Spare Air"?

Last night I had three separate nightmares about running out of air and not being able to get to the surface.

During my SCUBA refresher a few days ago, this happened to me swimming horizontally about 30 feet during the CESA test, I was doing the "ahhh" I think until about 10 feet to go, and had to take a breath from my regulator twice before surfacing.

I woke up and searched for small emergency tank solutions, and found these. Looks like about $260 from Amazon. Lots of stories why sharing air might be just as bad, or some divers won't share air if they're also low on air (typical marketing hype).

Opinions? Peace of mind, valid safety equipment, or "mark of the noob"?

thanks.

 

[ecarfan]

My wife and I have owned SpareAirs for a few decades. We think they are worth the investment as long as you understand their limitations and you actually practice using them. Their built-in regulator takes more effort to breath from than a typical scuba regulator. That's normal. Depending on your lung capacity and the depth you are at, the number of breaths you will get from them is quite limited. That said, they could easily save your life if, for example, you had a first stage failure (rare, to be sure) and you were not near your buddy or you and your buddy were not well practiced in buddy breathing. Another scenario where a SpareAir is useful is if a panicked out-of-air diver literally grabs your second stage out of your mouth (not unheard of) and you cannot readily find your alternate second stage or it fails because you haven't had it serviced for many years or is clogged with sand from dragging on the bottom. There are other scenarios I could come up with where a SpareAir could be a lifesaver.
Remember, in a typical recreational diving gear setup you only have one tank. That is your life support system. With a SpareAir you have two completely independent life support systems. I see no significant downside. I always carry mine. Just know it's limitations.

 

[dirkhh]

Sorry to be the party pooper... but Spare Air and other bailout solutions are (in my not so humble opinion) totally bogus, ESPECIALLY for a beginner.
Watch your SPG. Actually, since you'll tell your dive guide that you are new, he will remind you / ask you for your pressure. And end the dive when it's time to go up.
A dive should never run out of air. This is like driving without a seat belt and thinking "well, I have an air bag". Don't go there. This is your #1 responsibility.
And frankly, as a beginner, this is just adding more to your gear, is more likely to make you nervous, get you confused under water and likely increase your SAC rate (i.e., the amount of air that you consume during the dive).
And no decent dive master / instructor would allow you to rely on the Spare Air, anyway.

To avoid the obvious counter arguments. Yes, of course, tec divers have extra tanks with them (yes, I've done dives with four tanks, thank you). And yes, there are divers who swear that Spare Air makes sense (but see my argument above about driving without a seat belt). But the fact is that especially for a beginner the risks and issues far outweigh any potential benefit.

Hank, simply check your SPG. Every few minutes. That is a habit that you need to form, anyway. Just like buckling up.

Don't do it.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Thanks. I pretty much thought that would be your take on it.

 

[smac]

Hank I'm with Dirk here on the spare air.

I'd apply the K.I.S.S. (especially on the dives you are likely to do, good visibility, warm water and DM supervision)

Normal PADI regulator setup with octopus and SPG/Depth gauge console, straight forward jacket BCD (no automatic tank tighteners or remote inflation valves, tek wings etc.). Bear in mind you will be thrown in with a buddy that may not have the faintest clue how some of these "dive innovations" work

To this day I still don't even use integrated weight BCD's on trips like yours, I take an old bottom of the line "dive school style" jacket, and I still enjoy the dive as much as the next guy

The other thing I highly recommend is purchasing a mask that fits you well, bear in mind this may well be the cheapest in the store (if you are lucky). If you haven't already bought one, remember to give it a really good scrub with some toothpaste, and try it out snorkelling for a bit before your first dive.

I agree with Dirk, regular checks on your air every minute or so, as well as a glance at your computer (though it's unlikely you'll get anywhere near deco on your trip and cert level, but it's good habit).

Watch how the DMs lead the dive, they will have a sense of people's air consumption, and their own computer's deco limits. So often times the dives are based on a "half way" point based on the groups heaviest air user, and they will start to head to the pickup point. A good DM will have told you the let them know pre-dive when you get to say 100 bar (/1500psi), and almost miraculously ask you just at that point You may also notice the computer may only show a fairly low number of minutes remaining, yet you expect the dive to go on for another 20 minutes, but almost imperceptibly they will be shallowing up the group and you'll gain some deco time back. It's this sort of stuff you will pickup as you progress to the next level, working out how the dive has been "planned", and seeing it in operation

 

[HankLloydRight]

Thanks again for the insights.

I already have my own mask, snorkel and shorti 3mil wet suit from last year's certification. I also just bought a long sleeve rash guard to protect from the sun, and a rubber band with a ball on it for the tank to use as a noise maker.

I've held off on buying fins because I don't know what type I like best, and I wanted to (at least at first) limit how much gear I need to travel with, but fins are next in line.