Second thoughts on FSD

[Peteski]

@Peteski is this similar to what you are talking about ? Just got 2019.24.4

and following discussion...​

Kind of, although there's a lot of confusion (partly because it works slightly differently in the US) and mis-information in that thread!

The only problem with basic AP is that you have to cancel auto-steer whenever you change lanes on a motorway or dual carriageway. You can do this by manually overriding the steering wheel, which keeps TACC active. Or you can use the stalk to cancel AP, which cancels both auto-steer and TACC. The first method sounds good, except that you still have to suffer the bing-bong-bong-bing noise along with suppressed media volume for every single lane change, which soon becomes extremely irritating!

FSD (and also now EAP in older cars) get around this problem with the so-called auto-lane change feature, which for the UK is actually semi-auto in that you still have to manually indicate to activate the lane change. It's also a bit too sluggish to be effective in "Audi Tdi" traffic conditions, but works fine in lighter or less aggressive traffic. But the main benefit is not the fact that it changes lane for you (after you indicate), it's that you don't have to switch off AP, so there are no bongs or bings to annoy you!

For those with basic AP, the best workaround at present is to use only TACC in busy traffic (which you often end up having to do anyway) and then just switch on autosteer when you are cruising along in a single lane for a relatively long time e.g. late at night or in very light traffic. TACC doesn't make any bing-bong noises when switching either on or off and in many scenarios it is the least stressful way to drive a Tesla. Apart from the odd phantom braking event (another story!), TACC is generally very smooth and effective.

Of course non of the above applies to a single carriageway, where basic AP is effectively the same as FSD today.

 

[MountainJedi]

@Peteski is this similar to what you are talking about ? Just got 2019.24.4
and following discussion...

Kind of, although there's a lot of confusion (partly because it works slightly differently in the US) and mis-information in that thread!

The only problem with basic AP is that you have to cancel auto-steer whenever you change lanes on a motorway or dual carriageway. You can do this by manually overriding the steering wheel, which keeps TACC active. Or you can use the stalk to cancel AP, which cancels both auto-steer and TACC. The first method sounds good, except that you still have to suffer the bing-bong-bong-bing noise along with suppressed media volume for every single lane change, which soon becomes extremely irritating!

I see I got quoted into this thread, so I just want to add one follow up comment on what I posted yesterday as to issues I was having with Autosteer and TACC. Driving home last night, I again tested whether Autosteer would disable using the turn signal. Of 5 lane changes I made, Autosteer disabled when I activated the turn signal on 2 occasions. I believe that this is the correct behavior of Autosteer and that you should not have to override the steering wheel.

I rebooted last night (which I had not done since receiving 2019.24.4) and this morning Autosteer deactivated appropriately when activating the turn signal, leaving TACC active and not requiring the struggle for control over the steering wheel.

 

[navt]

Removed from my configuration.

 

[Rooster6655]

Removed from my configuration.

Perhaps if they stopped messing about people would have kept it

 

[navt]

Perhaps if they stopped messing about people would have kept it

That did play a big part in my decision. It was an impulsive add-on. I'm £6,460 happier now.

 

[Peteski]

I see I got quoted into this thread, so I just want to add one follow up comment on what I posted yesterday as to issues I was having with Autosteer and TACC. Driving home last night, I again tested whether Autosteer would disable using the turn signal. Of 5 lane changes I made, Autosteer disabled when I activated the turn signal on 2 occasions. I believe that this is the correct behavior of Autosteer and that you should not have to override the steering wheel.

I rebooted last night (which I had not done since receiving 2019.24.4) and this morning Autosteer deactivated appropriately when activating the turn signal, leaving TACC active and not requiring the struggle for control over the steering wheel.

That's all good, but what about the dreaded bong-bing? I presume it still does that when autosteer switches off with the indicator? Please tell me it doesn't! My car has EAP, so I can't test that feature myself as it has auto-lane change. My M3 will have basic AP only.

 

[MountainJedi]

That's all good, but what about the dreaded bong-bing? I presume it still does that when autosteer switches off with the indicator? Please tell me it doesn't! My car has EAP, so I can't test that feature myself as it has auto-lane change. My M3 will have basic AP only.

It still bong-bings. Probably a requirement for auditory notification to driver that Autosteer has been deactivated.

 

[goRt]

It still bong-bings. Probably a requirement for auditory notification to driver that Autosteer has been deactivated.

Didn't do it on my VW, so no regulatory requirement (in the UK)

 

[Peteski]

It still bong-bings. Probably a requirement for auditory notification to driver that Autosteer has been deactivated.

Thanks for the confirmation. I expected it would do that, but as @goRt says I don't think it's a regulatory requirement over here.

I do wish AP was silent in operation, especially in the scenario of an indicated lane change with basic AP. The noises are massively irritating, especially when listening to music (as it partially mutes the volume too). A software option to switch off the warning "bongs" as a preference would be just fine. I'm surprised it hasn't been requested many times before.

 

[Peteski]

This thread should be essential reading before forking out £6k for FSD. I haven't read all of it yet, as it will require a bag of popcorn. But having read a couple of pages, I can already feel the heat!

Seems like FSD is a complete crock

 

[Peteski]

Now I've read the complete thread I posted above (reached 5 pages at that point) I would say it provides a very realistic view of the stark reality of FSD. Only the biggest "fanboys" are willing to defend it at this point after so many unfulfilled promises.

 

[Yev000]

They certainly have done really well on the upsell and the pricetag can seem tempting especially with the robotaxi hype.

But you have to be flush with cash to spend that much money on a promise.

Even if its silly expensive later the second hand market will regulate it. If you can buy the same age FSD enabled car as yours for not much more, then the gap is the real market price for FSD.

example

2 years later FSD costs 12k to "enable" on your model 3 SR+

but second hand market is as follows:

2yr old FSD SR+ @ 20k
vs
2yr old SR+ @ 18k

Real FSD price is 2k. Sell your car, buy the FSD one. I really do not think that a 2yr old FSD enabled SR+ will magically shoot up to 32k just because Elon doubled FSD price overnight.

 

[Peteski]

They certainly have done really well on the upsell and the pricetag can seem tempting especially with the robotaxi hype.

But you have to be flush with cash to spend that much money on a promise.

Even if its silly expensive later the second hand market will regulate it. If you can buy the same age FSD enabled car as yours for not much more, then the gap is the real market price for FSD.

example

2 years later FSD costs 12k to "enable" on your model 3 SR+

but second hand market is as follows:

2yr old FSD SR+ @ 20k
vs
2yr old SR+ @ 18k

Real FSD price is 2k. Sell your car, buy the FSD one. I really do not think that a 2yr old FSD enabled SR+ will magically shoot up to 32k just because Elon doubled FSD price overnight.

That's a very good point. If you look at current used Model S/X prices, you certainly don't see a big premium for FSD enabled cars. Although most S/X do have EAP, which at the moment is the same thing and certainly a sought after feature on the used market. Obviously all M3s will have basic AP. Once these cars are 5+ years old the computer and sensor hardware will likely be out of date anyway. A bit like an old AP1 car today. If I was feeling like throwing £6k at the FSD promise today, I wouldn't expect to get much of it back on the used market in 3 or 4 years time. But I'm sure it would be worth "something". All depends if the promise is ever delivered at all!

 

[electricspace]

Tesla is able to use Shadow Mode which compares what AP would do with what Driver actually did. No need to buy FSD for that to be happening, but there has been plenty of talk about how often the car actually "phones home" to send such data - most opinions are "not often", but that said Tesla could start harvesting data for every mile driven from tomorrow (after their Amazon delivery of some Very Big Disk Drives )

I see what you're saying. It made me think of this SpaceX presentation where that take extremely complex simulations that produce vast quantities of data using an 'adaptive grid'.

Perhaps after viewing the presentation, it might illuminate how Tesla might be using similar tactics in managing the flow storage and processing later on.

PS I love how they affectionately use the automotive internal combustion as their plaything starter analogy.

 

[Durzel]

I can't stop thinking about FSD

I know it's weak at the moment in the UK. I know there might be sales on it in the future. I've been getting lease quotes and it is a straight up £200 uplift on my monthly price, so there is no perceived value in it in terms of residuals.

But, there's the quote about the price going up on August 16th. I find that hard to believe given how expensive it already is in the UK relative to its useable featureset, but nevertheless it is a threat. There's the cost of adding it later, apparently its over £7k if it's post-sale?

I don't often use motorways, so NoA will seldom get used. I don't think I'd trust auto-park with kerbs and the Performance 20" wheels. Summon is a nice gimmick but I can't see myself using it regularly, as the car won't be parked in a garage (currently).

So why can't I stop thinking about it? Why am I even considering paying £200 extra for a feature that I can pretty much just show off to people, but I don't derive any immediate (and possibly not before end of lease) benefit?

How likely is it really that it will go down significantly in price in a sale?

 

[MrBadger]

To keep your options open, you could add it now then remove it closer to delivery if you decide it’s not for you.

Seeing the latest advance summon videos things are improving but v10 rumoured to be the August release will need to be a huge step forward from now for me to keep. That said, FSD may not be the only order from Tesla being cancelled if latest delays are true.

 

[Durzel]

To keep your options open, you could add it now then remove it closer to delivery if you decide it’s not for you.

Can you do that on a lease? Once you've signed that's it isn't it?

 

[MrBadger]

Apologies - I don’t know - brain not in gear - but probably not too dissimilar to those who recently changed orders with the price adjustment. Guess it will be down to lease company, Tesla can certainly manage it and it’s the same physical car so shouldn’t make a difference to your order with them.

 

[RjbT3]

I would agree in general about Which being rubbish, but having read that FSD article I do happen to agree with it. It will be interesting what you think when you get to experience FSD first hand.

Challenge accepted. I will most definitely follow-up with you @Peteski my friend. I do hope I prove you wrong and come back telling you it was the best £5k option I have ever spent on a car. Of course, we will most likely still disagree but I look forward to the debate when I can come from a position of experience. That is, of you haven't convinced me to cancel the option right before delivery, whenever that may be.

That said though, the rest of the Which? review read like it was written by someone on the payroll OPEC.

 

[RjbT3]

Kind of, although there's a lot of confusion (partly because it works slightly differently in the US) and mis-information in that thread!

The only problem with basic AP is that you have to cancel auto-steer whenever you change lanes on a motorway or dual carriageway. You can do this by manually overriding the steering wheel, which keeps TACC active. Or you can use the stalk to cancel AP, which cancels both auto-steer and TACC. The first method sounds good, except that you still have to suffer the bing-bong-bong-bing noise along with suppressed media volume for every single lane change, which soon becomes extremely irritating!

FSD (and also now EAP in older cars) get around this problem with the so-called auto-lane change feature, which for the UK is actually semi-auto in that you still have to manually indicate to activate the lane change. It's also a bit too sluggish to be effective in "Audi Tdi" traffic conditions, but works fine in lighter or less aggressive traffic. But the main benefit is not the fact that it changes lane for you (after you indicate), it's that you don't have to switch off AP, so there are no bongs or bings to annoy you!

For those with basic AP, the best workaround at present is to use only TACC in busy traffic (which you often end up having to do anyway) and then just switch on autosteer when you are cruising along in a single lane for a relatively long time e.g. late at night or in very light traffic. TACC doesn't make any bing-bong noises when switching either on or off and in many scenarios it is the least stressful way to drive a Tesla. Apart from the odd phantom braking event (another story!), TACC is generally very smooth and effective.

Of course non of the above applies to a single carriageway, where basic AP is effectively the same as FSD today.

That is a very convincing post!