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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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Well I decided to experiment. Lets see how deep of a hole I end up here.. Anyhow..
Had a -p700 expiring 5/21 (tomorrow). Covered by margin, shares and cash.

I had thought that I should be able to roll this to multiple wide spreads, without raising maintenance margin much.

So play I just executed was:
BTC p700 5/21
STO 2x p652.5 for 6/4
BTO 2x p550 for 6/4
Net credit: about 5.
No meaningful change in maintenance margin or required capital.

So I rolled a -p700 two weeks out to twice as many bull put spreads -p652.5/+p550

What do you think? Did I miss some catch here? Focus was to roll those puts to lower strikes (still ITM). Could have made it wider for more credit, but that would have required more margin..
 
Well I decided to experiment. Lets see how deep of a hole I end up here.. Anyhow..
Had a -p700 expiring 5/21 (tomorrow). Covered by margin, shares and cash.

I had thought that I should be able to roll this to multiple wide spreads, without raising maintenance margin much.

So play I just executed was:
BTC p700 5/21
STO 2x p652.5 for 6/4
BTO 2x p550 for 6/4
Net credit: about 5.
No meaningful change in maintenance margin or required capital.

So I rolled a -p700 two weeks out to twice as many bull put spreads -p652.5/+p550

What do you think? Did I miss some catch here? Focus was to roll those puts to lower strikes (still ITM). Could have made it wider for more credit, but that would have required more margin..
can i ask what made you decide -p652.5? btw, i LOVEEEEEEEEEE finland!

Thanks in advance.
 
can i ask what made you decide -p652.5? btw, i LOVEEEEEEEEEE finland!

Thanks in advance.
I experimented with many different strikes and spread widths. Goal was to see if I can roll for a little credit, not affect margin, lower -p a good amount, and have the long leg otm.
These strikes accomplished that, nothing much else to it.. -p still ITM but way less now.
 
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I experimented with many different strikes and spread widths. Goal was to see if I can roll for a little credit, not affect margin, lower -p a good amount, and have the long leg otm.
These strikes accomplished that, nothing much else to it.. -p still ITM but way less now.
ah, got it; roll 1x -p700 5/21 into 2x BPS +p550/-p625.5 6/4 with breakeven 593.38

i might do the same thing; roll 1x -p760 6/18 into 10x BPS +p550/-p600 5/28 with $1k credit and higher chance to escape

thanks
 
I am thinking about trying some delayed rolls. For example, if I had a deep ITM -p, and I had the capital to BTC it so margin is not a factor, doing the 2 transactions of the roll on different days to get the most favorable outcome. Basically applying the same rules I use to start new positions to each leg of the roll.

So for the -p example:

BTC on a green day.
Wait for a red day to STO the next leg.
(The opposite for -c)

Positives:
-More profitable trades
-Able to roll to further strikes

Risks:
-Tying up capital
-Timing the market is not advised (but red/green days are fairly reliable in a short time span)
-Possible tax implications?

Please feel free to poke holes in this strategy and tell me what I'm missing.
 
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Here's how I spent the last 60 minutes of my life. I rolled my sold 585cc's expiring today to next friday's 600cc's.

I first sold the 600cc's close to the peak (~$593) @$14,4 average.
Then prayed the MM's for a nice drop, which I got, and bought back the 585 cc's with staggered limit orders for an average of $7,5.

Given the price action now I could have gone lower, but the other direction was a possibility also. Didn't want to tempt fate too much. I also know I could've waited until the last market hour to close my position and/or roll, but I don't have the stomach for that yet. I hate to be ITM with a good chance of getting deeper ITM.

Max pain 5/28 is supposed to be $600 so my new calls have a decent chance of dropping hugely in value by next thursday/friday.

Have a great weekend, everyone!
 
5/20: sto 10x617.50 0528 at $6.00 on a limit order after passing on $4.60 earlier today. It moved up to ~$6.63 at close, so hope to get a similar price for $625-$630 tomorrow.

5/21: sto 10x630 0528 at $5.13 at about the 10AM peak......feels like I'll have to watch the $617.50 next week. Will probably do a BTC for all 20 anyway and a cautious roll to 0604 since I'll be traveling and focused elsewhere.
 
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red/green days are fairly reliable in a short time span

Elaborate on this. (Full disclosure, its a challenge to your statement--while there may be some algo out there, I have not found any statistical relevance to trading based on simple analysis of up/down days.)

Please feel free to poke holes in this strategy and tell me what I'm missing.

Not much. Its basically just adding a time function to an underwater roll. Other than the risk of missing out on potentially favorable underlying movement from a regular roll (risk which at that point in the position lifecycle is probably a coin toss anyway) its just a few extra bucks for fees.

Stepping back a bit, as the one who socialized the concept of rolling with many folks via this thread I feel it responsible to soapbox a bit on rolling an underwater position. It is, explicitly, putting good money behind bad money. It is exactly like a Formula 1 driver saying "I crossed the finish line 30 seconds after the winner last race, so this race I'm going to give that driver a 30 second head start".

Obviously human nature FUDs us into not wanting to accept defeat, hence the compounding rolling strategies discussed upthread. They're not necessarily the wrong thing to do, at least some times, but its really important to understand how coupling the losing position with the new position fits into the bigger picture goal.

So in context of "BTC the loss today and STO the recovery tomorrow", you're already halfway there as far as accepting the loss of the losing position. As such it may be worth contemplating the right/best new position to open 'tomorrow'--A position that's completely decoupled from the loss of the previous position (rather than forcing the new position into being a recovery from the losing position).
 
Well, as with others, this week I bet on the -c580s and lost. Unfortunately, I had an appointment, so was unable to partake in the exciting drop to exactly 580 and rebound just 15 min before the close. MMs at work as usual. Ultimately, my 580 guess was only off by $0.88, but wow does that not tell the whole story.

What I learned this week: My initial prediction/intuition/guess of c605 was just fine and I should have taken my $9.20/shr profits and enjoyed the week away from the computer and just waited until Friday. That profit is probably 5x my actual weekly needs, but I got greedy. Unfortunately, I jumped up/down and sideways just like those puppet masters wanted. In the end, I cleared about $4/shr, probably twice what I need for future weekly expenses. However, to get that I sold/rebought 605s, 620s for next week, 620s, and finally 580s. Prices were in the $9s, $12s, $4s, $6s, $7s, etc. You’re get the picture. Lots of work for no additional profits.

Next week, I will wait to sell CCs, maybe even taking the week off.
 
It's been a busy Friday for me, as it has for many others. There was some easy trading where winning positions got rolled into target delta new positions for next week. Nothing interesting.


I AM attempting two rolls that I haven't previously tried.
The interesting bits, details below:-
- a split-flip roll of some -760p that didn't go out (retained the 1 week to expiration) that moved the strike from -400c to -550c. Still ITM but also easy to imagine going OTM.
- a flip roll roll of -640p that also kept the same expiration date, moving a strike from -640p to -610p


Here are positions that needed help, and what I've done with them:
-400c for May 28. A straight roll to June 4. No available rolls improve the strike, so add 1 week; the credit is minimal either way, and this way I get the soonest available feedback. I'm hoping for a situation where a 4 week roll is available that will improve the strike. This is also a candidate for a future split roll (turn a single call into several calls, thereby improving the strike significantly).

This position comes from an experiment started last week with a flip roll from a -760p (the other -760p got a standard straight out roll to get us to the next position). Results thus far is that I'd be slightly ahead if I'd kept this as a put. Slight enough that at other times in the week this one was ahead by a similar amount to how far it is behind now. With my larger view of flat to down, I still like this better than the -760p; even though my larger trading strategy would normally make this the priority.


-760p for May 28.
This is my biggest focus, with the farthest ITM. Last week I did a flip roll, turning one of these into a -400c. That's the one that got a straight out roll above.

The interesting part of this position is trying a split-roll to see how this does at improving things. I settled on a 4 call for 1 put split roll. The 1 for 1 would have landed me at the -400c, adding an additional week to June 4. When I started looking at how things improved using 2, 3, and 4 calls per put, I found some interesting results. Even the option to perform this split roll was setup earlier in the week when I preemptively closed some CC in preparation and didn't open replacements as preparation for this. This provided the uncovered shares necessary (margin to do this is WAY above anything I'm comfortable using margin for, so I had to have shares available for the CC).

The first choice I evaluated is the 2 for 1 split-roll. It improved the strike by something like $90. From 400 to 490 or so. It was such a big strike improvement, I would have gone with this if it weren't still nearly $100 ITM. The 3 for 1 was quite a bit better of course than the 2 for 1 (I don't remember specifics though).

The 4 for 1 split roll gave me my best balance between strike improvement, and minimizing my perceived risk. What I executed turned some -760p into -550c at a 4 for 1 ratio. That is a $150 strike improvement, going from $180 ITM on the put side to $30 ITM on the call side.. I'm still ITM by $30 with these calls, and I have 4x as many calls as I had puts. If my flat to down larger view continues through next week then these even have a chance of being OTM and get closed for pennies. Is it wrong to root for another week of down?

Important additional info about this change in position. I couldn't get a fill without going to a market order. And the bid/ask spread on the overall position was murder. I was only able to execute this 4 for 1 roll in two different transactions. First the BTC on the 760s. Then the STO on the 550c. You'll need margin or a big cash cushion to pull this off. As the contracts were close to $200, that's $20k for each put to BTC. I got it right back on the STO, but I've been in situations where I didn't have the cash to pull off the BTC and therefore I couldn't do a 2 step roll.

And the REALLY interesting dynamic. I expected to roll out as well on this split-roll. That didn't happen - this is a 5/28 to 5/28 roll. I did look at the June 4's as well and they got me very little additional benefit. Adding an extra week for effectively no change in the position was surprising to me. And keeping these only 1 week away is a big bonus to me - sooner feedback and adjustment opportunity, as well as the most voracious part of the time decay curve.


-750p for May 28.

Straight roll to June 4.


-640p for May 28
The interesting part of this roll is this split roll. I found that a 2 for 1 split roll got me a $30 strike improvement: 640 down to 610, while retaining the 5/28 strike There was little meaingful value to adding a week at the same time. So these rolls got me a significantly better strike at the same week. This isn't a free lunch - I have 2 puts where I previously had 1. That's a lot of incremental cash to back these puts. That cash comes from closing out winning puts and using the winning puts backing to cover these.

The other interesting / surprising result to me, and a heads up / warning for what qualifies for deep ITM. This one was about $60 ITM (not $100, $150, or $200 as I've needed to deal with elsewhere) and it's already not budging. Imagine my joy (/s) when I found no strike improvement for either a 1 or 2 week roll. Admittedly the option is still a week to expiration but time value was still approaching 0, so I decided on the early roll anyway for simplicity and reducing risk of early assignment (very very unlikely; I mostly didn't want to lose track of these and accidentally take these to assignment next week). The ones that didn't get the split roll were moved out to June 4 at the same strike.
 
Some observations about today's deep ITM roll activity.

There are a lot of risk/reward, cost/benefit tradeoffs going on here. I've traded some $180 ITM options for several $30 ITM options. I've traded some $60 ITM options for multiple $30 ITM options. I want to bring these out as there's no free lunch and in some ways I've exposed myself to more risk.

One of my positions changed from improving with increasing share price to one that improves with decreasing share price. If the shares go up enough then this change in directionality is going to bite badly. But if the shares go the direction I want, or even don't move much at all, then the strikes will be improving immediately from here with a decent chance of turning deep ITM options generating no income into income generating OTM options in a week or 2.

One of my positions went from benefiting with shares going up,, to a position that still benefits from shares going up but at roughly 2x the rate, with a much bigger likelihood of going OTM; even within the current trading window I see (roughly 560 to 600). Again there is a reasonable chance that badly ITM options will quickly turn into OTM options, and return to generating weekly income.


But what can go wrong? In the first position, if the shares move up - even a little bit to something like $620, then I'll be deeply ITM on the new position AND deeply ITM on the remainder of the original position (a -760p / -550c inverted strangle). It'll be stuck in "no strike improvement" land on the remaining puts AND the new calls. And I probably won't have the resources to continue new split-flip or split rolls. But hey! I'll have deeply ITM options on both sides, so one of them will inevitably go OTM. And I'll probably need to use the negative cash flow solution of realizing losses.

In the second position I'm already deep ITM. If the shares keep going down then the split roll will just double the number of contracts that continue to behave as deep ITM contracts. I'll be better off due to a better strike, but I'll have extra leverage on those downward share price moves.


The motivation for these more aggressive attempts to improve deeply ITM positions is the observation that I've got positions that haven't been earning income for multiple months. They're just rolling along until a significant share move in their direction. Most importantly I think that flat to down on the shares is very much in the cards for the rest of the year, so waiting for a big move up is going to leave this position as dead money; possibly (my belief is likely) for the rest of the year.


Therefore I've got some high level choices. Realize the loss (BTC the -760p at ~$200 each), free up the resources, and get back to earning income from these deep ITM positions that are newly OTM. I think about my sold options in terms of 'slots'. The cash backs a number of puts (slots) and the shares back a number of covered calls (slots). Turning deep ITM put slots that aren't doing anything into OTM put slots that are generating income is appealing to me (duh).

But getting there isn't free. The obvious choice is to realize the losses (buy out the puts) and use the cash that is no longer reserved for those deep ITM puts, to back OTM puts. Or I can try these split-flip, flip, and split rolls to try to improve these positions more quickly (as I am doing). To do so I'm using resources that are currently earning income to instead improve deeply ITM positions, thus no longer earning income.

I'm going the direction I'm going right now as I prefer a cash flow positive solution. Realizing the losses will be a large up front negative cash solution, with an immediate improvement in the week to week cash. I estimated 15-25 weeks for the weekly improved cash flow to recover from the up front negative cash.

Using the split and split flips, I'll stop earning income on both sides. Instead of a big up front negative cash flow, I'll trade for effectively no cash flow for some time to come. Making "no income" a lot easier is that the year has been sufficiently successful to be somewhere between 1x and 2x paycheck income already earned through the end of June.


Why the direction I'm going in? With my longer view of flat to down trading, I do believe that either approach will work well for me. I choose the flip and split-flip as I've got a good chance of a very fast improvement, where fast improvement is minimum income but possibly only for a week or 3. No big negative cash up front (easy / defined risk / and long time for cash to be replaced), but a riskier approach for achieving the improved position that is back to generating income.

I also see us more in a trading range and increasingly likely to stay here the rest of the year. These sideways trading times seem especially well suited to my trading strategy, but both legs need to be using OTM options to really take advantage. I want to stay cash flow positive (even minimally) and I want these deep ITM options gone fast. These split and split-flip rolls creates that opportunity, while retaining the realize the losses choice.

I am consciously using all of my income generation for more quickly improving the deeply ITM options.