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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I've landed in the 'waiting for Monday' camp. I was hoping for a good BPS entry today (my new definition of 'good' is a lot more lax than last week's :D) but morning appointment and stuff came and went, and the trading day was over.

I appreciate the many comments about hyper-aggressive cc / lcc's. That's had me thinking and I've got some well established and quite profitable leaps that I can let run for a few years (Jun 2023) or I can do some i-dare-you call sales for big premium. And if I get to a point where I 'have' to take assignment, then that will hardly be a problem - I'll raise more cash for spread sales. I'll be noodling on this over the weekend.
I hope we don't have to wait too long - not sure if my addicted brain can survive very long without the next 'fix' :). Looking forward to getting more insights from your noodling - I have plenty of profitable leaps that are just sitting in my IRA that could benefit. Not sure I would want to do this in my brokerage - the risk of assignment and resulting tax liability is just too high (these are June'22 with 252 strike price -very deep ITM, but don't want to sell and take the profit this year)
 
that's the angle i missed - i forgot to consider the scenario where the sp dropped AFTER the OTM expiry

thanks!
Same thing happens if it drops before expiry. You're left with underwater shares offset by premium.

I mistakenly put myself in that potential situation this week. Sold calls on Thursday (early Thursday) for next week to get a little more gain out of things. Later realized if it drops then I could be worse off versus a straight sale. I've had these shares since the last time we hit 900, so no biggie, but part of plan was locking in gains (versus last time it hit 900). As it is, I may be rolling since it was early Thursday and they are ITM.
 
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Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?
 
Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?
The one thing I can think of, is that by NOT doing this, I leave myself with a source of cash to bail myself out if I get myself into trouble with my current cash/margin.... If I do this, I just maximize my leverage with no good source of "get-out-of-jail" cash.... Back to rules 1-3: Don't get greedy when I'm already making WAY more than I did before I retired.
 
Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?
If you have 10k shares why not just use them as collateral to use $4.5million of margin to sell BPSs? Which using your math would net you $150k/week.
 
Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?
Not advice
If stock rises sooner, you have less return on the puts to buy back the calls. Buyback price could be higher if it is a percentage of stock (strike) price instead of a fixed dollar offset. (Not sure if Vega works like that)

If you have 10,000 shares, you could sell calls each week for 2,000,000/10,000/50=$4 in premium instead. That's $50 above the current price or a 5.5% share price gain to go ITM.
 
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Predictions for next week? TSLA up around 5% this week vs NASDAQ 1.4% (give or take). Do we keep climbing? How much and why? Sometimes when TSLA has climbed for a while, when the NASDAQ starts to do well, TSLA under performs while investors jump back into other companies that didn't do as well as TSLA the week before. Given that we are in ATH territory, who thinks we stay below 1,000 next Friday? I can't figure out how much of this weeks buying was Short covering vs institutions/whales accumulating because of Tesla's future outlook. I'm going to say we climb just under 5% next week, for a closing price around 949.99 as MM try to get control back with a Call Wall that grows at 950, and short sellers see the ATH as an opportunity to make up losses. Obviously, I'm just guessing based on my "gut." Anyone's mom, cat, magic 8 ball, etc., say different?
 
Already doing that.... I've tasted the nectar. I want more....
Ok, I didn't realize that they let you double dip. That you can use the same shares to back other trades and a CC at the same time. (I figured selling a covered call against them would reduce your available margin. But according to the margin calculator it actually increases your available margin.)
 
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Ok, I didn't realize that they let you double dip. That you can use the same shares to back other trades and a CC at the same time. (I figured selling a covered call against them would reduce your available margin. But according to the margin calculator it actually increases your available margin.)
Since they wouldn't get called away until they are worth more, and I would have cash instead of shares, it makes sense.
 
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Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?

I've thought about something along these lines at a much smaller scale but after going through this past year...
Not advice and definitely no expert I've made a lot of painful mistakes maybe worth sharing.

1. TSLA could reach 1500 before Jan 2024, and if that happens your effective time with the upfront premium for bps play will be shortened. So even in a good scenario of 3.5m/year assuming growing # contracts, what if TSLA reached 1500 in 6 months? 9 months? Etc. You'd have to calculate realistic returns for various time periods and then assign some probabilities of reaching 1500 at those intervals.
2. TSLA has potential to still make wild swings as evidenced this year. I guess maybe very smart people will have a better sense of stabilization of the stock moving forward as fewer unknowns remain unknown and whatever impact macro has, but I think these ultimately price into volatility.
3. Volatility directly impacts option prices. So all else equal, high IV = more expensive options (or more premium).

I think the worst case scenario maybe that TSLA skyrockets to 1500 during a high IV setting that gets you thinking hard about closing out the CCs. I don't know how to calculate a theoretical call price in this situation - any mathematicians around? but there is potential for it to be more expensive than when you first sold it so if you do decide to buy back, it might cost you more than you originally netted from upfront premium.

Though this is not part of your plan, something I experienced recently: I had 10/29 750CCs up until yesterday (the result of multiple rolls to get out but I executed too poorly and slowly, one of my worst trades of the year). I never got early assignment even when sp was ~850. $100 itm and I'm hanging onto these crazy loss making CCs wondering how come my shares didn't get called away. They were bad psychologically and bad for margin/cash. I ended up closing them after the Q3 call for an enormous loss...yes I was one of those expecting / "hoping" for a sp decline, IV crush, or whatever, which never came. I guess had I held onto them, next week could prove differently. Nonetheless if my shares had been simply called away at say 25 or 50 itm in the preceding days, the overall management would have been way better and less stressful. In your scenario if TSLA goes to 1600 (if SP reaches 1500, 1600 is only ~6.6% away which could happen in 1-2 big up days)...or even 1700 which would be a closer equivalent to my example (750 -> 850: 13%, so 1500 to 1700 maybe over a week), and you're expecting shares to be called away to free everything up depending on your cash or margin situation, it may not happen and then you will be effectively forced to decide to buy back your cc's at an unfavorable rate or risk continued SP appreciation.

In summary - if shares skyrocket, IV explodes, and you become paralyzed like me or get caught off guard while SP rockets beyond 1500, and expect a pullback, or theta decay to get to a more manageable CC repurchase premium, or for shares to get called away to free cash, know none of those may happen and you may be closing out your CCs at a higher price, sooner than expected, and possibly for an overall loss depending on how much you made from your BPS until that point in time. If you are proactive not a dummy like me you will of course manage much sooner and avoid these travesties.

If you're gonna do it, I believe to maximize your probability of success - execute the plan when both SP and IV are high super high much like early this year, so that the upfront premium you collect has a better chance of buffering whatever comes down the road and minimize the worst case scenario above.
 
It makes a difference if you are posting under your real name and with an identifiable picture, like you are doing. I can very well inderstand you don’t want to post about large sums of money.

In my case: my name is not Fred and I’m not running around on clogs to plug my finger in every dike that is about to break through… 😬

I just want to make one comment on this: anonymity on the Internet isn’t all its cracked up to be. Sure, I couldn’t pick you out of all the Dutchmen in the world, but (if you are truly Dutch and) if you let it slip to a neighbor that you’re a moderator on a Tesla forum, how hard would it really be for them to figure it out? We have posters who noted when they bought and remodeled their houses and went on vacation and returned. And have a Tesla in the garage, of course. Again, they’re anonymous to me, but those near them could potentially correlate this stuff with ease. Any regular posters with locations listed that aren’t in e.g. NYC may be easy for a neighbor/coworker to identify just knowing they’re active on a Tesla forum and knowing their hometown, as there’s not so many from any given geography.

So I find it easier to not try to be anonymous and not have to worry about all the information leakage that might de-anonymize me. Instead I try not to say things I wouldn’t want traced back to me… probably a fine policy in general. :)

Off that topic, I ended up “resizing” the rest of the $100 put spreads I bought Wednesday to $50 ones and piling on some more $50s with the margin released. Premiums still weren’t great, but I’ve now exceeded my weekly goal in spite of it. It seems my goal assumes I’ll only buy the initial contract each week, and doesn’t count on this “double dipping” by shrinking the spreads. It makes me wonder if I should just plan for that — rather than a mix of $100 and farther OTM $50 spreads, maybe I should go all $100 spreads and plan to resize to $50s after the premium substantially declines. For whatever reason I like that better than buying them back altogether at e.g. 50% profit. I think I don’t want to “get out” at half profit and be unable to find another good entry? Though when I say it, it seems unlikely. Hmm.
 
This is the first step in the programme, next is to realise you can sell the rest of the shares and get 2x more exposure buying DITM LEAPS, plus a wedge of cash too :p
I see what you're saying, but have reservations about going on that path. I am a HODLer first and options are a way to grow my HODL count and then make a steady income on top. I appreciate the company's mission and what it's given me and want to stay associated with Tesla.
So, opposite to the most in this thread, my goal is to spend the cash I earn on options to exercise a bunch of my 2019 calls by the June next year and more than double my shares (at the low cost basis of <$200). These shares will give me 50% margin of their value instead of paying 50% taxes on selling the calls if Biden gets the the long term hodler tax of ~20% removed and replaced with effective income tax like he wants.
My broker has no limit on # of shares margined.

...
As we shoot to the moon with SP, the exercise is tedious and could go on forever, and there seem to be few opportunities for CC income, but I’m protecting the capital gains and shareholding, as mentioned.
Back a few weeks ago when I took a loss of $10/CC, I've looked into rolling and how long I'd have to do it. Seemed like +$20 strike/week roll @0 premium, I figured by EOY I might catch up or maybe not at the rate it was going, so I said hell with it, especially since bps paid for $10.
Felt like the weight dropped from my shoulders the minute I took the loss. Felt pretty good about it, even though my strike expired worthless at the EOW.

Ok. Someone talk me out of this. Looking at selling Jan 2024 CC against my shares for 1500 strike. Let's assume 100 contracts. Get $1,080,000 now for BPS. Start selling 200 $50 Iron Condors/week. Assume conservative $1.75/condor = $35k/week to start. In one year, easily get to $3.5M as I will sell more spreads as the money grows. I expect the SP to hit 1500 in the next year (maybe sooner). I would buy them back at that point - So I will have to close the CC at a loss. Current 920 strikes (for Jan 2024) are $250, so I assume if the stock gets to 1500, they will cost something in that range, for a tax deductible loss of $1.5M to close them ($2.5M - the $1M I get now), leaving me at least $2M in net income. Seems like a nice "loan." What am I missing?
I didn't follow all the calculations (late in the day and after 12 hour day work shift I'm in the low brain consumption mode)
But
#1. FSD. Progress supposed to be exponential, not linear. We have Beta rollouts to outsiders, so definitely some progress. 1 year can do a lot in this scenario. This can double SP.
#2. Business as usual, 2 new factories. By 2024 they will be fully ramped up on Y and Austin 50% ramped on CT. This alone could bring 50%+ to SP.

I.e. $1500PT could be low. Mind you, some analysts are giving 1,100-1,200 which is 6-12mo PT and what do analysts know?
In 2 years we could be well over half-way to $3k/share ARK's target for 4 years that Elon agreed to, which could be conservative as well.

I'm thinking $2k is 2 year target.
 
Listened to Gary Black's chat with Dave and it made a lot of sense. Watched how TSLA went green while all Nasdaq was red today. Seemed like a confirmation.
So, feeling like SP should not go below 900 much next week.

Sold today for 10/29
110x -830/730bps @2.90
200x -800/780bps @0.58
1000ccs @2.02
Total ~63k with more risk than I'd like to have ideally.

On CC front I'm hoping I can roll if exceeded, seems a lot of estimates are 1000 by Dec, feeling like not a lot of room to jump in a week.
 
Wow, that must be some mighty options trading volume. Maybe we don't matter after all.
Screenshot_20211023-012250_Chrome.jpg
 
I didn't follow all the calculations (late in the day and after 12 hour day work shift I'm in the low brain consumption mode)
But
#1. FSD. Progress supposed to be exponential, not linear. We have Beta rollouts to outsiders, so definitely some progress. 1 year can do a lot in this scenario. This can double SP.
#2. Business as usual, 2 new factories. By 2024 they will be fully ramped up on Y and Austin 50% ramped on CT. This alone could bring 50%+ to SP.

I.e. $1500PT could be low. Mind you, some analysts are giving 1,100-1,200 which is 6-12mo PT and what do analysts know?
In 2 years we could be well over half-way to $3k/share ARK's target for 4 years that Elon agreed to, which could be conservative as well.

I'm thinking $2k is 2 year target.
A thing in the other thread is still in my head:
Go back to 2019. We know everything is manipulated. Stock trades at 180.
People make estimates.
Even the rosiest (non-bs) ones were like 5000 bucks in 2025 or so.
It is now 2021. We are at 4550. Years early before even the Uberbulls.

And we have new analysts (was it Pierre?) Giving 2025 PT in the order of 2750 post split.
So I think that double that may be possible 😉. 5500 in 2025.
No. I won't bet on 1500 in 2024. That sounds more like 04/22 😉

I mean.. I stop predicting more than 6 months out. To many things that can happen. FSD illegal? New finance crisis? Factory hit by a meteor? Competitors going bankrupt? Smooth sailing? SpaceX gathering needed resources in the asteroid belt? 😁

Elon said they will grow 50% per year and faster than that the next years.
1000 this year, 1500 in 22, 2250 in 23, 3375 in 24.
I know it's not that simple, but gives perspective for the potential of LEAPS.
 
I've thought about something along these lines at a much smaller scale but after going through this past year...
Not advice and definitely no expert I've made a lot of painful mistakes maybe worth sharing.

1. TSLA could reach 1500 before Jan 2024, and if that happens your effective time with the upfront premium for bps play will be shortened. So even in a good scenario of 3.5m/year assuming growing # contracts, what if TSLA reached 1500 in 6 months? 9 months? Etc. You'd have to calculate realistic returns for various time periods and then assign some probabilities of reaching 1500 at those intervals.
2. TSLA has potential to still make wild swings as evidenced this year. I guess maybe very smart people will have a better sense of stabilization of the stock moving forward as fewer unknowns remain unknown and whatever impact macro has, but I think these ultimately price into volatility.
3. Volatility directly impacts option prices. So all else equal, high IV = more expensive options (or more premium).

I think the worst case scenario maybe that TSLA skyrockets to 1500 during a high IV setting that gets you thinking hard about closing out the CCs. I don't know how to calculate a theoretical call price in this situation - any mathematicians around? but there is potential for it to be more expensive than when you first sold it so if you do decide to buy back, it might cost you more than you originally netted from upfront premium.

Though this is not part of your plan, something I experienced recently: I had 10/29 750CCs up until yesterday (the result of multiple rolls to get out but I executed too poorly and slowly, one of my worst trades of the year). I never got early assignment even when sp was ~850. $100 itm and I'm hanging onto these crazy loss making CCs wondering how come my shares didn't get called away. They were bad psychologically and bad for margin/cash. I ended up closing them after the Q3 call for an enormous loss...yes I was one of those expecting / "hoping" for a sp decline, IV crush, or whatever, which never came. I guess had I held onto them, next week could prove differently. Nonetheless if my shares had been simply called away at say 25 or 50 itm in the preceding days, the overall management would have been way better and less stressful. In your scenario if TSLA goes to 1600 (if SP reaches 1500, 1600 is only ~6.6% away which could happen in 1-2 big up days)...or even 1700 which would be a closer equivalent to my example (750 -> 850: 13%, so 1500 to 1700 maybe over a week), and you're expecting shares to be called away to free everything up depending on your cash or margin situation, it may not happen and then you will be effectively forced to decide to buy back your cc's at an unfavorable rate or risk continued SP appreciation.

In summary - if shares skyrocket, IV explodes, and you become paralyzed like me or get caught off guard while SP rockets beyond 1500, and expect a pullback, or theta decay to get to a more manageable CC repurchase premium, or for shares to get called away to free cash, know none of those may happen and you may be closing out your CCs at a higher price, sooner than expected, and possibly for an overall loss depending on how much you made from your BPS until that point in time. If you are proactive not a dummy like me you will of course manage much sooner and avoid these travesties.

If you're gonna do it, I believe to maximize your probability of success - execute the plan when both SP and IV are high super high much like early this year, so that the upfront premium you collect has a better chance of buffering whatever comes down the road and minimize the worst case scenario above.
The Options Profits Calculator is your friend: TSLA Long Call (bullish) calculator