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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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@tivoboy any substance?

“On Tesla's balance sheet sits $3.5B of deferred revenue which is mostly FSD-related unrecognized revenue.

“Tesla states that they haven't recognized this revenue in their P&L since the "performance obligations are unsatisfied, or partially unsatisfied".

“In Q4'23, Tesla released $235M (not 100% FSD but most).

“Given the advances in v12.3, does Tesla and its auditors believe more "performance" was satisfied at a higher %. If yes, a greater share (relative to prior quarters) of the $3.5B might be release (not the full amount but meaningfully more than the $235M last quarter).

“Estimating that every $50M incremental recognition adds $0.012 EPS.

+$3.5B unrecognized energy performance reserve

(Credit: The other AJ)
 
@tivoboy any substance?

“On Tesla's balance sheet sits $3.5B of deferred revenue which is mostly FSD-related unrecognized revenue.

“Tesla states that they haven't recognized this revenue in their P&L since the "performance obligations are unsatisfied, or partially unsatisfied".

“In Q4'23, Tesla released $235M (not 100% FSD but most).

“Given the advances in v12.3, does Tesla and its auditors believe more "performance" was satisfied at a higher %. If yes, a greater share (relative to prior quarters) of the $3.5B might be release (not the full amount but meaningfully more than the $235M last quarter).

“Estimating that every $50M incremental recognition adds $0.012 EPS.

+$3.5B unrecognized energy performance reserve

(Credit: The other AJ)
I don’t think the number is anywhere near that large still, and it’s not probable that they can unlock more just with 12.3, but @Knightshade is your best ask.. and it’s just revenue recognition, it’s NOT cash flow.. whatever monies have been paid, have been put into treasury or spent.

Post in thread 'FSD Beta v11.x'
FSD Beta v11.x
 
I don’t think the number is anywhere near that large still, and it’s not probable that they can unlock more just with 12.3, but @Knightshade is your best ask.. and it’s just revenue recognition, it’s NOT cash flow.. whatever monies have been paid, have been put into treasury or spent.

Post in thread 'FSD Beta v11.x'
FSD Beta v11.x
Exactly this. It's not new cash in hand, and I expect that the recognition will get first paragraph billing as a 1 time item. The original cash flow didn't get that much attention, but it'll be discounted as a one time item and the EPS will get that backed out. The reality the way investors will see it will be somewhere in between - yes the EPS was higher (bonus!), but its a one-time item as we convert the liability (cash received for a service not yet delivered) into earnings.

It really is a good thing - I expect the financial press to minimize it.


And really - for analyzing the ongoing health of the business I would want to hear about how much FSD revenue is being / will be recognized on a routine basis. Are we selling FSD for $12k and putting $3k into earnings immediately, with the other $9k as deferred? Or is it 75/25? These are things that can get modeled and will help understand what EPS might look like for the forward 12 months.
 
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I don't have insight there, but I did decide later in the market to crank in some negativity from the bridge in Baltimore. I figure that we'll see supply chain disruptions. I don't expect there to be much direct impact to Tesla, but I see the stock market as priced to perfection, with Tesla also close to perfection. Doesn't make me right, but most of my current discretionary positions win in a sideways or down market.

I also bought some 2 year 150 puts on this bump up. It might be months and months before I'm right; I've traded in and out of these a few times now, and I still see more down than up over the balance of this year.
 
Exactly this. It's not new cash in hand, and I expect that the recognition will get first paragraph billing as a 1 time item. The original cash flow didn't get that much attention, but it'll be discounted as a one time item and the EPS will get that backed out. The reality the way investors will see it will be somewhere in between - yes the EPS was higher (bonus!), but its a one-time item as we convert the liability (cash received for a service not yet delivered) into earnings.

It really is a good thing - I expect the financial press to minimize it.


And really - for analyzing the ongoing health of the business I would want to hear about how much FSD revenue is being / will be recognized on a routine basis. Are we selling FSD for $12k and putting $3k into earnings immediately, with the other $9k as deferred? Or is it 75/25? These are things that can get modeled and will help understand what EPS might look like for the forward 12 months.
Didn't Zach say FSD revenue was 50% recognized just based on AP/EAP/FSD visualization/Stop sign/stop light. This was said before FSDb went wide release. So I imagine it's way over 50% today. However I bet the bulk of that revenue came from those who bought FSD in the EU and other Asian countries.
 
I also bought some 2 year 150 puts on this bump up. It might be months and months before I'm right. I've traded in and out of these a few times now, and I still see more down than up over the balance of this year.

Curious what have you found to be the benefit of such long-dated puts, and have you found them to move enough to make the gains worth locking up the not-insignificant money tied up in them for several months?
 
Curious what have you found to be the benefit of such long-dated puts, and have you found them to move enough to make the gains worth locking up the not-insignificant money tied up in them for several months?
Here's how I'm thinking about these:

For movement - the ones I buy cost me around $25-30 so far, and they move $5 worth up and down with frequency. $5 move on $30 is a 16% gain. Those $5 option price moves happen frequently - today's $10 move in the share price will have been close to a $5 move in the option price as a for instance.

So far I've cycled in and out of these puts in less than a month each time, but I just started. Meanwhile I've cycled in and out of long calls in days, weeks, months, and even years. I expect that this will be my experience with the puts I've started buying - that some of these positions will turn over in days or weeks, but the positions are designed to win in months or even years. These have consistently worked well for me.

My larger mental model is its a position that I want to have for at most a year; the second year gives me an extra 6 months to be right (and ready to close for a profit next week).

Oh - and when I try to shorten the time scale on purchased options, I lose. Nearly 100% - I'm bad at it. I think its because I have on my long term buy and hold or "I will be right eventually" hat on, and those are both bad ways to think about 1 week or 1 month options. And I get enough leverage with the long options, that I don't need to try to shorten the expiration.

And you're right that it's a significant amount of money tied up. 10 of these were about $30k. For my portfolio and situation, having this money committed this way for a year or more is fine (good?). I don't need to lever or cycle it more often to get good value.


Also I'm not looking for only a $5 gain - I've got these 150s because I think that they might be worth $50 intrinsic at some point this year. Though I'll probably bail on them earlier than that, and only get $10 worth.

For my decision making, I really like the risk/reward in this position (considering everything, including have the money tied up) - so I'm in.


Something of a side note. This is why I don't include position sizes when I post about trades I'm making and why. It might be that this particular position is a good one for a single contract for some people, but is a bad position for 100 of them ($300k). Meanwhile 100 of these might be perfectly reasonable for others.

I feel like position size comparison can get people into trouble too easily by choosing a bad sizing for themselves, and without that risk providing important additional information about the value of the position. If a position change of your own that you post about is a good position for me, in my portfolio, and my objectives, then its a good position for me regardless of how big your position size is in the position that you posted about.

I got the idea of the position out of the posting and that's what is helpful.
 
@tivoboy any substance?

“On Tesla's balance sheet sits $3.5B of deferred revenue which is mostly FSD-related unrecognized revenue.

“Tesla states that they haven't recognized this revenue in their P&L since the "performance obligations are unsatisfied, or partially unsatisfied".

“In Q4'23, Tesla released $235M (not 100% FSD but most).

“Given the advances in v12.3, does Tesla and its auditors believe more "performance" was satisfied at a higher %. If yes, a greater share (relative to prior quarters) of the $3.5B might be release (not the full amount but meaningfully more than the $235M last quarter).

“Estimating that every $50M incremental recognition adds $0.012 EPS.

+$3.5B unrecognized energy performance reserve

(Credit: The other AJ)
No.
Even if recognized all at once, its just a one time item, easily backed out just like the Valuation Allowance from Q4 financial.

WS only cares about recurring revenue stream, aka ongoing take rate.
 
I'm trying to decide if I give some of the premium back and roll my 175CC for next week up to 180CCs, to make them easier to roll up to 190 if necessary. I have the +170/-195 BPS for the 12th. Plan is to let the shares go, sell the +170, and take assignment on the -195P, or roll them for some premium first, if the SP starts to get away from me.
 
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Canaccord Genuity analyst @gianarikas has reiterated his $TSLA price target of $234 and BUY rating.

“Overall, we view much of the negativity currently surrounding Tesla as extreme — and the recent uptick in volume of negative and bearish feedback we have received regarding Tesla's stock does serve as a barometer as to how lopsided current sentiment is. Yes, the company is “between 2 major growth waves”. Yes, earnings revisions have been nasty for some time. Our January post-deliveries note (Mind the Gap) discusses the multiple expansion in 2023 in the face of margin shortfalls, raises several pointed questions about the year ahead, and previews the coming growth slowdown. However — the issues of 1Q24 appear to be somewhat demand-related BUT mostly supply-related. That means people may be mostly misdiagnosing current Tesla fundamentals. We estimate supply constraints may have cost Tesla ~95k units in deliveries. Also, with pricing in a better place (at least for now), could margins help set the stage for positive earnings revisions over the course of 2024 as Cybertruck ramps? We’ll see.

“We are adjusting our 1Q24 delivery estimates from 441k to 420k. Actual investor expectations for a quarter are always tough to decipher, but we hear 1Q24 delivery murmurings in the low-400k range. We are also adjusting our volumes from ~2.08M to ~2.04M for 2024. Our 2024 non-GAAP EPS estimate is also moving lower, mostly due to an increase in our tax rate and opex adjustments — from $4.02 to $3.60. Our price target of $234 (based on 26x our 2026E non-GAAP EPS) remains the same as we are not adjusting our 2026 estimates.

“Postscript: As we were working on this note, Elon Musk instructed Tesla employees to both install and demo FSD (full self-driving) Beta for customers taking delivery in North America. Tesla will also offer 1 month of free FSD to all US Teslas starting this week. We have been strong advocates of Tesla’s razor/razorblade approach in seeding the market with vehicles that are software upgradable with a high margin software
— and see this as a potential catalyst for future penetration gains. However, we see additional price cuts as necessary for a material change in FSD penetration.”

There is a lot of lies in this.
1. 2 major growth waves doesn't count. It just reinforces TSLA as a car company that takes 4 years to come up with a new model. Overall growth is less and Margins lower.
2. He claims Q1 deliveries are supply related. Blatant lie. Also claim ~95k units was due to supply constraints. Outrageous lie.
3. FSD increases margins. Another lie. There are 480k deliveries in US each year. Even if everyone subscribes to FSD that adds $.4 to EPS. Including that TSLA is still over valued. Subscriptions wont go up until price goes down.

In short. This guy is underwater on TSLA and wants to pump to make money.
 
thats not something new, the deferred revenue, just something that guy AJ pointed out from the 10-K. As for sentiment vs number, last ER we got a huge EPS and it still dumped on gloomy guidances.
I agree with you.
But any idea when this euphoria ends? I did some calculations even with 100% FSD adoption, stock is expensive. Every bull says FSD is working and we are going to moon. But no one was able to give me expected earnings from it.
 
I don’t think the number is anywhere near that large still, and it’s not probable that they can unlock more just with 12.3, but @Knightshade is your best ask.. and it’s just revenue recognition, it’s NOT cash flow.. whatever monies have been paid, have been put into treasury or spent.

Post in thread 'FSD Beta v11.x'
FSD Beta v11.x



YOU RANG?

The year-end 10k for 2023 had deferred revenue related to auto sales at 3.536 billion at end of year.

That's not just FSD $, it also includes the "owed to customer" value of internet connectivity, free supercharging, and OTA updates
The 10k says they expect to recognize about 926 million of that amount in 2024.

Note from Dec 31 2022 to Dec 31 2023 they -added- 1.201 billion to the balance...but only recognized 595 million.... so assuming they add a roughly similar amount this year (and it may be higher because they're pushing free supercharging miles and free FSD as promos this year pretty hard) it means they'll add more liability than they recognize once again though by a smaller margin.

There's also other chunks of deferred revenue related to other things... car leasing and energy sales and leasing combined was north of 2B for example.


All that said though, others have admirably covered this is money Tesla already has in hand, the only thing recognizing it does is remove it as a liability from the balance sheet.


Moreover- if you refer back to the post of mine @tivoboy linked to- unlocking money beyond the % they currently recognize will likely require one or both of things 12.3x at L2 in NA only does not get you.
 
I agree with you.
But any idea when this euphoria ends? I did some calculations even with 100% FSD adoption, stock is expensive. Every bull says FSD is working and we are going to moon. But no one was able to give me expected earnings from it.
Right now I only follow my rule: once strength has been shown on the hourly, get out of the way until the whales show us their cards. I closed my shorts today around 180 in the morning. Going to wait for a pullback and then a spike to take out today's high. If and when that happens, if the squeeze is strong and it gets to overbought on the 4h, Ill keep staying out. If its muted and rejected into the close, Ill add back shorts.
 
Right now I only follow my rule: once strength has been shown on the hourly, get out of the way until the whales show us their cards. I closed my shorts today around 180 in the morning. Going to wait for a pullback and then a spike to take out today's high. If and when that happens, if the squeeze is strong and it gets to overbought on the 4h, Ill keep staying out. If its muted and rejected into the close, Ill add back shorts.
Thanks.
Any plans on going long?
 
Thanks.
Any plans on going long?
Ill go long when it seems cheap on the chart, through price, time, or both without breaking major supports. Seeing we only have 3 days till PD. I wonder if they wont finish the squeeze on Monday. Thatd be something. They may not allow anyone to go long or close short at all.
 
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I agree with you.
But any idea when this euphoria ends? I did some calculations even with 100% FSD adoption, stock is expensive. Every bull says FSD is working and we are going to moon. But no one was able to give me expected earnings from it.
It's hardware and software that can be replicated and has major implications on next gen vehicle in which your 480k/year turns into 4.8M a year. Toyota:Lexus is about 12:1. If you look at all major auto companies with both a luxury and an economy segment, the ratio are between 10-15 to 1. This is how Tesla came up with their numbers and all of a sudden, a working FSD will begin printing ridiculous amounts of money just on subscriptions. Then you add on money made from other Tesla ecosystem products like charging and services with that many cars dumped onto the streets.

You and I know that Tesla's valuation is usually what the market expects in 3 years time. If you think Tesla is over valued today, you must be shorting it to the ground long before they became profitable.