SF Bay Area to L.A., long range model required?

[T34ME]

I decided to do a little spreadsheet for the Fremont/Los Angeles Civic Center trip using ABetterRoutePlanner. I don't know what algorithms ABRP uses so I don't know if it is completely accurate. The parameters I used are: starting with a 100% charge, arrival at SC or destination with 15% range left (I have a power boat capable of a circumnavigation and the default range on any leg is a minimum of 15% reserve in the tank at a refuel opportunity, so I am programmed for this parameter). I used 200 Wh/mi @ 65mph and 255 Wh/mi @ 75mph. The results surprised me.

SR battery @ 65mph

number of stops = 2
total time at SC = 39min.
total cost to charge = $7:27
total duration = 9:36
​

LR battery @ 65mph

number of stops = 1
total time at SC = 19min
total cost to charge = $4:04
total duration = 9:12
​

SR battery @ 75mph

number of stops = 3
total time at SC = 85min
total cost to charge = $13.62
drive duration = 9:15
​

LR battery @ 75mph

number of stops = 2
total time at SC = 41min
total cost to charge = $10.57
total duration = 8:28
​

Analysis reveals that the LR3 is comparatively faster in total duration at a given speed (65mph or 75 mph in this example) and is less costly to charge than the SR3. Perhaps this was obvious to others, but not to me, I had to prove it to myself.

The question becomes, is $9,000 worth saving anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes and around $3.00 on this particular trip. It would depend on how often you make this trip, how important time is to you, and how impacted SCs will be in the future. Each one of us will have our own criteria to make that decision and there is no one right answer. I know this little experiment has solidified my decision. I hope it can help others.

 

[gregincal]

The big unknown of course is how this situation will change as Model 3s crowd the chargers beginning just a few months from now. Will Tesla grow the Superchargers to approximate the growth in usage? No one knows.

Given that they expanded Harris Ranch to 20 stalls and are almost finished with a 40 stall site at Kettleman City 20 miles away I think they seem to be doing OK.

 

[ölbrenner]

@T34ME:
Great exercise, just my style (my wife always says I have to make a spreadsheet for everything, virtually guarantees analysis paralysis).

Based on my own research I find the 200 Wh/mi @ 65mph and 255 Wh/mi @ 75mph numbers generous. Do you have insight how you came to those? abettertripplanner itself defaults to 255 Wh/mi@65mph for the M3, and evtripping.com numbers are just a wee bit better than that.

200 Wh/m@65mph= 5mi/kw (which would be stellar)! I think in reality we are at around 4mi/kwh? Myself anything less than 72-75mph on the 5 is dangerous, and I am using ~275Wh/m@75mph for my own SR vs LR purchase decision calcs.

I can't wait for the real world numbers to come in, and make this decision easier!

 

[T34ME]

@T34ME:
Great exercise, just my style (my wife always says I have to make a spreadsheet for everything, virtually guarantees analysis paralysis).

Based on my own research I find the 200 Wh/mi @ 65mph and 255 Wh/mi @ 75mph numbers generous. Do you have insight how you came to those? abettertripplanner itself defaults to 255 Wh/mi@65mph for the M3, and evtripping.com numbers are just a wee bit better than that.

200 Wh/m@65mph= 5mi/kw (which would be stellar)! I think in reality we are at around 4mi/kwh? Myself anything less than 72-75mph on the 5 is dangerous, and I am using ~275Wh/m@75mph for my own SR vs LR purchase decision calcs.

I can't wait for the real world numbers to come in, and make this decision easier!

Thanks Obie, the Wh/mi is a WAG on my part assuming I use the aero wheels covers on 18" wheels, extra efficient LRR tires, and using EAP on these long trips. The speed limit on Hwy5 is mostly 70mph the last time I drove it. I generally drive 65mph in the right lane. BUT, given this exercise, I see that 75mph can be more efficient than 65, even with the SR battery and can be done safely with EAP. So I am re-evaluating my convictions.

 

[insaneoctane]

"Annual Trip"? Once per year?

It's $9,000 + taxes + insurance + financing + efficiency loss extra for the long range version. If that's your only reason for wanting the extra range, I'd say that it's very expensive range.

I thought @ItsNotAboutTheMoney though....

Sorry, couldn't resist :}

 

[TaoJones]

I wouldn’t worry about the extra stop, given the additional cost relative to the overall purchase.

Try not to rely upon Redondo Beach as it is already under pressure from livery, travelers, and commuters. Further, it is unlikely that location will be expanded due to saturated parking across the three hotels on the property now.

That said, if you use Redondo at off-peak times, the restaurant at the hotel is and has been better than expected since day one. Nice people as well, and they are responsive during the rare instance of ICEing.

Consider Hawthorne or Culver City to the north as alternatives. Once Clemente and Carlsbad come online, some of the pressure should be relieved finally from Fountain Valley and the original and ill-fated OC SC, SJC.

Finally, we’re in no danger of getting overrun by Model 3s at SCs for 6 months anyway. However, I do hope they’ve replaced the management for the Southwest Region because we can’t wait years for SCs as has been and continues to be the case for San Diego.

The urban SCs should be well-received, and the lower amperage should work and play well with some of the regional utility’s (SCE) limitations. There are some intriguing opportunities for partnerships and such.

Let the infill commerce!

 

[ölbrenner]

...the original and ill-fated OC SC, SJC.

Oh oh, what happened to SJC? That's the SC closest to my home, I was kind of counting on it for quick top offs before and after xc trips.

 

[jasonb]

LR battery @ 75mph
number of stops = 2
total time at SC = 41min
total cost to charge = $10.57
total duration = 8:28

this sounds kind of plausible to me. i have an X so my range is 290 vs 310 which is reasonably close. of course the X suffers more than the 3 at speeds > 75mph.

I can say fremont to burbank which we seem to do a few times a year works pretty well. with 290 range you have your pick of superchargers so you dont need to be stuck waiting which is a convenience. we generally stop tejon ranch (never had to wait for a spot but did get last spot avail once) for 40 min and a starbucks at buttonwillow or similar for 10 min. avg speed was on high side of flow of traffic (80ish). you definitely dont want to be in slow lane on I5, thats a miserable existence. we arrive burbank with 15-20% left and the hotel has free charging so yay - except for the part where it estimates 13.5hours to charge back up to 80%

my advice is bigger battery lets you stop when you want and travel the speed you want. this makes me happy. if you dont mind a small inconvenience then the sr will work fine too. at once a year its probably not worth 9k but this is of course a personal decision.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Oh oh, what happened to SJC? That's the SC closest to my home, I was kind of counting on it for quick top offs before and after xc trips.

SJC is notorious for being full with a line waiting nearly all the time, as well as awkward to get to and use, and has been full almost since it opened. It is hoped that the new San Clemente Supercharger Station will take the pressure off.

I hoped to add SJC to my Supercharger list but it had a line waiting so I limped to Fountain Valley instead. [That one was also full but I was going to be there for several hours to have dinner with a friend and after 9 PM it had two slots open.] Locals clogging Supercharger Stations have been an ongoing problem in Southern California; makes it difficult for those on road trips, to put it mildly.

 

[ölbrenner]

SJC is notorious for being full with a line waiting nearly all the time, as well as awkward to get to and use.

Okay thanks for the info. All I knew about the SJC superchargers was seeing them from the train lol.

 

[gambit48]

Yeah, it's not about the money. It's the time. I'm also wondering about the real world numbers.

I do think the 40 stall Kettleman Supercharger will get full sometimes if the Model 3 starts getting produced in numbers anywhere close to what Elon suggests. Remember, this is a stall that gets taken up by one car for 30-40 minutes (best realistic scenario) instead of a gas station which can run through a car in about 10 minutes or so (includes paying along with the actual pumping).

Do current S/X/Roadster owners only go 65 on the 5? I dunno if I could do that for two main reasons. It's not the time, although after such a long trip, if you can save 30 minutes or more, that greatly increases the comfort level. It's that one, the right lane is a lot rougher and noisier due to the wear from the big rigs. Whenever I go into the right lane, my car hunts and makes a much louder noise due to the condition of the road. It's much, much smoother in the left lane. The second is you end up dealing with the big rigs and merging traffic a lot more. Even with autopilot, until it's fully autonomous, you still have to pay attention to when the 3 passes. And it'll be passing a lot as the right lane is filled with vehicles who go anywhere from 55 - 70 mph. Even the big rigs pass each other as some of them still go really slow. You deal with traffic a lot less camped out on the left lane.

So, I figure 75 is a much more realistic number.

 

[CameronB]

Have made several Bay Area to LA (Pasadena) trips in my MS 60D. 220 mile rated range, just like standard range Model 3.

Typically requires a total of about 1:20 of time to charge. Spread across 2 or 3 stops. One for 15 mins, one for about 50 and another for about 15. Could also do it in 2 (slightly longer) stops instead of 3.

But the fact is, the car is almost always charged up enough to continue before I am ready to go!

Example: I stop by Gilroy for a quick mini charge. Car says it needs 15 mins. I plug in, walk 1 block to a Starbucks. By the time I walk the block, order coffee, get the coffee, and walk back...my car has already notified me I can continue. That’s fine. My car gets a little extra charge.

Ditto for the “long” stop. That’s 45 minutes or so. Might be Harris Ranch, day. I’ll use that time and grab some lunch. But eating at the steakhouse there...getting a table, ordering, getting food, eating it, cashiering, a bathroom stop...that takes more than 45 minutes. Car is again ready before me.

It’s pretty painless and driving for 5-6 hours you probably need a meal and a coffee/snack break or two.

Fairly painless in my experience to do this with 220 mike range.

That said, more range obviously gives you more flexibility. It may allow you to skip one of the 15 min “mini charge” stops.

It also comes in handy on those rare but painful super busy times like a national holiday weekend or a SpaceX launch at Vandenberg. On those days, I would have definitely welcomed having more range and flexibility. Atascadero on a SpaceX launch day is not a pretty sight!

 

[amoeba]

I decided to do a little spreadsheet for the Fremont/Los Angeles Civic Center trip using ABetterRoutePlanner. I don't know what algorithms ABRP uses so I don't know if it is completely accurate. The parameters I used are: starting with a 100% charge, arrival at SC or destination with 15% range left (I have a power boat capable of a circumnavigation and the default range on any leg is a minimum of 15% reserve in the tank at a refuel opportunity, so I am programmed for this parameter). I used 200 Wh/mi @ 65mph and 255 Wh/mi @ 75mph. The results surprised me.

SR battery @ 65mph

number of stops = 2
total time at SC = 39min.
total cost to charge = $7:27
total duration = 9:36
​

LR battery @ 65mph

number of stops = 1
total time at SC = 19min
total cost to charge = $4:04
total duration = 9:12
​

SR battery @ 75mph

number of stops = 3
total time at SC = 85min
total cost to charge = $13.62
drive duration = 9:15
​

LR battery @ 75mph

number of stops = 2
total time at SC = 41min
total cost to charge = $10.57
total duration = 8:28
​

Analysis reveals that the LR3 is comparatively faster in total duration at a given speed (65mph or 75 mph in this example) and is less costly to charge than the SR3. Perhaps this was obvious to others, but not to me, I had to prove it to myself.

The question becomes, is $9,000 worth saving anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes and around $3.00 on this particular trip. It would depend on how often you make this trip, how important time is to you, and how impacted SCs will be in the future. Each one of us will have our own criteria to make that decision and there is no one right answer. I know this little experiment has solidified my decision. I hope it can help others.

I'm confused why your duration is so long. Using the same parameters for SR I get 6:47 on the trip planner site...65mph, 100% depart charge, arrival charge 15% for charger and goal. Fremont to L.A. Civic center. 9 hours seem way too long (I do it in under 5hrs in my 3 series lol).

 

[gambit48]

Interesting, but with Tesla charging you if your car is ready and you aren't back within 5 minutes, I wonder if people will really attempt to eat at a restaurant while charging. Especially if they're alone. If they only give you 5 minutes, that basically means you have to drop everything and head out to move the car. Assuming you're even within a 5 minute walk. I'm pretty curious as to the real life effect of the charging stations coupled with the new time limit.

I usually do that run in the middle of the night so hopefully the chargers won't be even half full, but I wonder if the fee will cause people to change their driving patterns.

 

[ElecFan]

Interesting, but with Tesla charging you if your car is ready and you aren't back within 5 minutes, I wonder if people will really attempt to eat at a restaurant while charging. Especially if they're alone. If they only give you 5 minutes, that basically means you have to drop everything and head out to move the car.

You can see it coming on the app, can't you? So no big surprise, I figure. Just plan your meal to be finished when charging is complete.

 

[gambit48]

Can you plan your meal that well at a sit down restaurant? Like the Harris Ranch one? All of CameronB's examples show him going past the time his car needed to charge.

 

[ElecFan]

If not, you can always stand up, move your car and get back to finish your meal. Not much different from going to the toilet, I guess.

 

[d21mike]

Interesting, but with Tesla charging you if your car is ready and you aren't back within 5 minutes, I wonder if people will really attempt to eat at a restaurant while charging. Especially if they're alone. If they only give you 5 minutes, that basically means you have to drop everything and head out to move the car. Assuming you're even within a 5 minute walk. I'm pretty curious as to the real life effect of the charging stations coupled with the new time limit.

I usually do that run in the middle of the night so hopefully the chargers won't be even half full, but I wonder if the fee will cause people to change their driving patterns.

I am confused about that. I assume you can charge up to 100% before you would get that warning. I.E. While it is still charging you can let it go. I think the person was saying that to continue his trip he only needed to charge to say 70% but since he wanted to take longer he "allowed" it to continue charging to maybe a MAX of 100%.

 

[jasonb]

Can you plan your meal that well at a sit down restaurant? Like the Harris Ranch one? All of CameronB's examples show him going past the time his car needed to charge.

i dont plan, i just sneak out the door where the greeters stand. makes it a quick move.

 

[CameronB]

i dont plan, i just sneak out the door where the greeters stand. makes it a quick move.

Two things to clarify on my previous example:

1) Basically I never have to charge to 95 or 100% at Superchargers for the trips I make (which are usually Bay Area to Pasadena or Bay Area to Santa Barbara, Ventura or Thousand Oaks). So maybe the Nav says I need 40 mins. That’s 40 minutes to get the amount of energy I need to get to the next charger with about 15-20% buffer. When the Tesla app notifies me that charging is done (and, yes, you do get heads up before then that charging is “almost complete”) - I simple use the Tesla app to slide the amount of battery charge to full. That’s more than I need but then the car starts charging again and because the SoC is fairly high (say 85%) the charge rate is slower so it buys me say another 15 (sometimes more) minutes.

2) you don’t get the alerts/threats of idle fees if the Superchargers aren’t busy! Depending on what time you make your trip, the chargers can be very empty. Especially on I-5 where there are more choices. I usually travel starting about 9am and arrive in Pasadena about 6.5 hrs later - charging and lunch included)