My son ordered a red rav4 prime like in your photo in October. He wanted a MY but out of his price range especially with price increases + he is getting tax rebate on Toyota. Another factor is he’s over 100 miles from a Tesla service center and maybe mobile service could handle most things but not a plus. Hybrid is best of both worlds and worst of both worlds so I think more of a stopgap until EV infrastructure is fully built out. He’s still waiting to get his as Toyota not making many. They say February but I don’t think they really know:
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Shopping for an ICE for my wife...
- Thread starter MrFC1000
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Tha_Ape
Active Member
Look at PHEVs... They're great! I honestly would have gotten a Rav4 Prime over the Y if not for the $11k dealer markup. this was when the Y was cheaper than it is today, so they were similarly priced with that markup. (I should thank Toyota for pushing me into a MY)
I have a Prius Prime and routinely get 2000mi per tank (>200mpg). It's a good way to go electric without range anxiety. You realize that even with 25mi of range, most of you trips are electric. The Rav4 has all most twice that range (plus 500mi more on gas). if I were in the market today I'd give the Lexus PHEV a strong look, too.
I have a Prius Prime and routinely get 2000mi per tank (>200mpg). It's a good way to go electric without range anxiety. You realize that even with 25mi of range, most of you trips are electric. The Rav4 has all most twice that range (plus 500mi more on gas). if I were in the market today I'd give the Lexus PHEV a strong look, too.
I agree about ICE cars. They seem archaic, from a different time.
I look at them, and It's like I see a horse and buggy, along with some fellow who has to follow around with a bucket and shovel....picking up horse crap along the way.
All their efforts to have some performance in an ICE vehicle seems to be wasted, as even the lamest EV have more performance.
I was really excited to see Hertz buy Tesla vehicles, because after driving a Tesla, it's like....no way do I want to drive in a crappy Kia or Toyota again.
I look at them, and It's like I see a horse and buggy, along with some fellow who has to follow around with a bucket and shovel....picking up horse crap along the way.
All their efforts to have some performance in an ICE vehicle seems to be wasted, as even the lamest EV have more performance.
I was really excited to see Hertz buy Tesla vehicles, because after driving a Tesla, it's like....no way do I want to drive in a crappy Kia or Toyota again.
Midnightsun
Active Member
Every time I use an ICE car it feels like it is broken. Thousands of parts spinning, jerking, rotating in oil and making noise is just so prehistoric in comparison. I am fortunate as I do have 2 pickup trucks available to me any time of day a few miles away at my office so no issue IF I need to haul bigger stuff or take a trip where charging may become difficult. I also have a few trailers which I have used with the Y. Works great if the distances are shorter as it does suck quite a bit of extra juice with a load behind.
Tha_Ape
Active Member
This is so true.... Tesla really revolutionized it. Nissan Leafs had been around for a while, but they were slow. Teslas tech literally changed the game. I used to have a 400hp Cadillac CTS-V, now my grocery getting MY, the slowest car Tesla makes, will blow its doors off.
Technically I added Acceleration Boost for fun, but even without it, it is faster than the CTS-V I had. It's so ridiculous.
I like EVs as much as the next person, but I think folks dismissing ICE so easily haven't driven a comparable vehicle in a long time. Even staying in the same price range as a Model Y, for example, you can buy a wide range of ICE vehicles that often offer considerably "more" than the EV. Mostly due to the cost of EV tech, of course.
But the point is, for many buyers, there is a lot more a vehicle needs to do than 0-60 times, zero emissions, and charging at home. And just like you were "sold" when you took your first Tesla test drive, you probably won't understand the other side until you do the same. Take a drive in a new proper modern-day V8 muscle car, a loaded full-size truck, or a luxury SUV, and you might get it.
With that said, I'm all for the EV future. But no matter how much we want it to happen now, the reality is that it simply isn't realistic for many people today.
But the point is, for many buyers, there is a lot more a vehicle needs to do than 0-60 times, zero emissions, and charging at home. And just like you were "sold" when you took your first Tesla test drive, you probably won't understand the other side until you do the same. Take a drive in a new proper modern-day V8 muscle car, a loaded full-size truck, or a luxury SUV, and you might get it.
With that said, I'm all for the EV future. But no matter how much we want it to happen now, the reality is that it simply isn't realistic for many people today.
There are tons of nice ICE vehicles out there, and the ability to travel huge distances to anywhere in the US without worrying about charging infrastructure or adding hours to your trip for charging is valuable. Tesla is great, but let’s not pretend they (and EVs) are the only good cars out there and that they’re the best fit for every situation. For example, I can’t own just EVs because they literally can’t make it to my dads house in Idaho.
Let’s not pretend that is in any way what the average gas station experience is like. That’s like showing a burning Tesla after a crash and going “look, battery cars are dangerous!”. Context and frequency matters. People are also terrible at math thinking that saving 10-20 cents on gas is worth that.On the west coast, you don't need a back up ICE car so I'd say it might be a regional or comfort thing. If you've ever seen a Costco gas station on the west coast... I mean the hell? That's the Garden Grove location. I go to the Fountain Valley location and the lines wrap all the way around the complex. The line must be like a mile long. It's insanity.
Not only that but as someone who has filled up weekly at Costco gas stations in the DC/MD/VA area for the last 10 years.. even with the longest lines, the line still moves insanely quick. Costco pumps are the fastest in the entire gas industry. Why? Because their goal is to fill up as many tanks; and as quickly as possible. A normal gas pump will fuel much slower because the gas station is also a convenience store, meaning they want you to come inside and purchase additional items. Whereas I've timed it on several occasions and it took less than 2 minutes to fuel my CRV at Costco every time.. that's about 13 gallons of gas pumped in less than 2 minutes. Even if there are 10 cars ahead of you.. there are still two pumps for each line.. meaning it would only be a 10min wait.
Also, as you pointed out it's pretty easy to avoid the long lines at Costco and just pay a little bit more if your time is really that valuable. Or if you still wanted the cheap price, but want to avoid the lines. Just go early in the morning or late at night. The Costco pumps open at 6 am and there is never a line.. and that's the time many people are leaving their house to head to work. Same no wait late at night, as the gas pumps close at 9pm (one hour AFTER the store closes at 8pm). Even going in the middle of the day when lines at their longest... I'm still in/out in the gas line about 15mins.
Why is sitting a random public EV charger for 30mins to fill up the battery to 80% somehow okay.. but waiting 15mins in line at Costco to fill up your gas tank to 100% suddenly so horrible?
It's these types of exaggerations that make EV owners look ridiculous.
Signed.. A huge EV fan.
We only own EV's in my house.
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Midnightsun
Active Member
I had a Mercedes AMG prior to this and a few fully loaded Genesis vehicles. Cost more than the Y yet still feel broken. Almost bought the latest fully loaded Genesis GV80 but cancelled it to order my Y in 2020. I now have another Tesla in the Garage, a Model S LR. Apart from range and filling them up, ICE has no advantage whatsoever IMHO.
At $70k price point Tesla leave much to be desired. The quality is not there. I never purchased a car in the past 25 years with a checklist on my hand ( for gaps, etc). Compare apples to apples. Just because the other automakers didn't choose to install an iPad as a main control center doesn't mean anything. Do your wife a favor. Get her a 2022 Lexus NX plug-in. I would bet that she will love that car more than any Tesla.
When people debate ICE vs. EV, and discuss filling up, range, and the time associated with it, people often leave out the fact that if you charge your EV at home, you always leave the house with a full “tank”.
Yes, we can all agree that a DC Fast Charger is slower than filling a gas tank up. But we neglect to bring up that the EV never leaves home without that full charge.
So the inconvenience of charging/filling up is mostly removed from the EV owners life, unless they road trip. In that scenario, yes - we start to see the EV take longer to complete the same trip.
When people debate quality in EV vs. ICE, people often dismiss or excuse the horrendous infotainment options in pretty much every other automobile (and even in EV’s like the Mach-E….). We discuss a panel gap issue like it is inexcusable, but leave out how those can be easily corrected with wrenches and bolts. When infotainment issues cannot be address by anyone but the manufacturer.
When people debate the cost of EV vs. ICE, people often dismiss or excuse the fact that ICE vehicles are increasingly uncool, and over time - ignored by car buyers more and more. I don’t think this will come for a few more years in North America; but at some point, ICE vehicles will just not be allowed anymore. Before this, they will have higher fees, higher cost of ownership, and taxed nearly out of existence. This is already happening all over the world, so it isn’t like this is new news. I don’t think ICE buyers are foolish, but I do think they should be cognizant of the fact that these vehicles (and their resale prices) will be negatively impacted by all of these factors.
North American automarket is a little frustrating for EV adoption; all the manufacturers focus on higher margin vehicles in North America. The rest of the world has more lower cost options, and more tax incentives.
But for people who insist on Costco gasoline, wait 20 minutes in line for gasoline, and then charge for 7-8 more minutes….and also arguing that EV’s waste time with recharging, are completely missing the point. They don’t even think of how they would only leave their house with that full charge, eliminating the need to recharge, unless on a road trip.
Yes, we can all agree that a DC Fast Charger is slower than filling a gas tank up. But we neglect to bring up that the EV never leaves home without that full charge.
So the inconvenience of charging/filling up is mostly removed from the EV owners life, unless they road trip. In that scenario, yes - we start to see the EV take longer to complete the same trip.
When people debate quality in EV vs. ICE, people often dismiss or excuse the horrendous infotainment options in pretty much every other automobile (and even in EV’s like the Mach-E….). We discuss a panel gap issue like it is inexcusable, but leave out how those can be easily corrected with wrenches and bolts. When infotainment issues cannot be address by anyone but the manufacturer.
When people debate the cost of EV vs. ICE, people often dismiss or excuse the fact that ICE vehicles are increasingly uncool, and over time - ignored by car buyers more and more. I don’t think this will come for a few more years in North America; but at some point, ICE vehicles will just not be allowed anymore. Before this, they will have higher fees, higher cost of ownership, and taxed nearly out of existence. This is already happening all over the world, so it isn’t like this is new news. I don’t think ICE buyers are foolish, but I do think they should be cognizant of the fact that these vehicles (and their resale prices) will be negatively impacted by all of these factors.
North American automarket is a little frustrating for EV adoption; all the manufacturers focus on higher margin vehicles in North America. The rest of the world has more lower cost options, and more tax incentives.
But for people who insist on Costco gasoline, wait 20 minutes in line for gasoline, and then charge for 7-8 more minutes….and also arguing that EV’s waste time with recharging, are completely missing the point. They don’t even think of how they would only leave their house with that full charge, eliminating the need to recharge, unless on a road trip.
Ormond
Endless Peacock
There’s also a Ford Escape plug-in that has decent battery range and good mpg, but I believe it’s slow.
It's surprising to see Lexus having plug-ins given that plugging in is so inconvenient.
thesmokingman
Active Member
It's pretty common out this way. It's not to say that they have to do that, it's just that they do. There's something about saving ten cents that drives people mad for GAS. And as a Costco shopper it's annoying as all cuz you have to drive thru and around that mess. Anyways point is GAS preoccupies ppls minds even when its plentiful, so a lot of it is a comfort thing imo.
Oh and you are not getting thru these west coast Costco lines in 15 minutes. Try more like 45 mins. I wish there was aerial drone footage, it's absolutely comical. The things I do not have to deal with anymore... ppl telling me how much money I could be saving by getting gas at Costco, lmao.
I know a lot of people disagree with this point but Tesla is a daily commuter car. It's meant to be charged at home 95% of time. As a result we need to compare visiting gas stations 1-2 times per week vs a supercharger once in three months.
Yes. Thousands cheaper than a RAV4 Prime but:
- less range
- much weaker EV performance. 88kW motor. Exactly the same as was in the CMax Energi.
But it might be that the power restriction is actually at the battery. CMax Energi was limited to 35kW at the battery.- PTC heater, no heat pump
- FWD only
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Well, for a start one is driving very slowly behind a line of vehicle exhausts, and the other is not driving at all and just passing the time.
Plus while charging:
- You don't have to remain with the car
- But can re-enter your vehicle if you want
- The vehicle can be on
So, you're not restricted in what you can do, just that you can't drive the car..
Personally, I wouldn't own an EV without home, workplace or destination charging that covered my regular charging needs so _I'm_ not spending a lot of time refueling. For our Kona we spend less time getting miles from home charging than we did getting gas for the Prius it replaced.
For longer trips, I'd be unlikely to be sitting at the charger waiting.
I've DCFCed my Kona 6 times.
Only 1 time I remaind with the vehicle, and that was just because it was just a test.
The other times we did one or more of:
- used the bathroom
- went for a walk
- had lunch
- went into a store
(Some of those time I had problems getting the charging going, but that's a different topic with charging.)
I've used destination charging 4 times: twice at a hotel, twice in a public parking lot and I also didn't remain with the vehicle. They added time (less convenient parking), but a couple of minutes each time, and those destination charges then eliminated a dedicated refueling stop.
I don't see EVs ever being as fast to refuel as ICEVs, but the trend in charging speeds means that I can see that anybody who can charge at home will have the time _they_ spend refueling being reduced overall.
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