'Smart' Home Chargers

[Peteski]

Yours is a trial unit.
You're talking about usage stats for yourself.
The question posed relates to DNO throttling - I've asked at the top of a DNO for a definitive answer.

I never even saw the usage stats myself. Throttling was done externally as part of the trial on behalf of the DNO. The unit was supplied FOC by the DNO as part of the trial. I have no idea what model it is. Now the trial is over it just operates as a normal 8 kW wall charger. I have the option of using it in smart mode at a later date if/when it becomes a commercial proposition - vague talk of cheaper tariffs if you allow throttling etc. but nothing available today.

As I mentioned, during the trial if I switched off my wifi to interrupt data transfer it would lock into 3 kW mode. So there was no point in trying to override it.

 

[Peteski]

Thanks for all the responses.
There's a huge amount of EV knowledge on the forum, I feel like a real beginner!!
But the general consensus appears to be in line with what I was hoping, that it's best to just choose the wall charger that best suits your current needs.
Additional tax / cost at the point of home charging is unlikely to be a consideration unless there is a fundamental change in the infrastructure.
I agree the fairest and best way would be to base any incremental charges on per mile charging ideally based on time of day / road type.

Yes, there is no point in getting a smart wall charger today, although it may allow for some limited future proofing.

 

[TestPilot]

Yes, there is no point in getting a smart wall charger today, although it may allow for some limited future proofing.

I had to, for the OLEV saving.

 

[Peteski]

I had to, for the OLEV saving.

Yeah, that's a fair reason! I got one only because it was FOC as part of the trial.

 

[dan223]

Either via a SIM installed in the charge point or over the electricity cables. I guess the former.

IMO stop talking about stuff you have no idea about. The requirement for a smart meter is to allow smart management, and in time will allow cheap tariffs split over different times to balance the load on the electric network, it's so consumers can manage the start and end times. Each smart charger is different, some use WiFi some use cellular, your DNO have no access to it whatsoever, and there is no standard between these systems it would be pretty much impossible for them to manage it. I think what you maybe referring to are trials that have been done by DNO's but the charger is provided BY the DNO and therefore they have access to it. Since in most cases chargers are just added as another circuit to the existing fuse board. They can't control "through the wires" you would need a completely different input from the grid for them to be able to do that, and then why bother with a smart charger when it could be done higher up the line if that was the case. The only connection to these smart chargers are either via WiFi or SIM, and that is for your smart functionality, nothing to do with anyone else accessing it.

 

[goRt]

IMO stop talking about stuff you have no idea about. The requirement for a smart meter is to allow smart management, and in time will allow cheap tariffs split over different times to balance the load on the electric network, it's so consumers can manage the start and end times. Each smart charger is different, some use WiFi some use cellular, your DNO have no access to it whatsoever, and there is no standard between these systems it would be pretty much impossible for them to manage it. I think what you maybe referring to are trials that have been done by DNO's but the charger is provided BY the DNO and therefore they have access to it. Since in most cases chargers are just added as another circuit to the existing fuse board. They can't control "through the wires" you would need a completely different input from the grid for them to be able to do that, and then why bother with a smart charger when it could be done higher up the line if that was the case. The only connection to these smart chargers are either via WiFi or SIM, and that is for your smart functionality, nothing to do with anyone else accessing it.

Alternatively, there's facts:
All electric car home charge points must have 'smart' features to limit costs | This is Money

 

[dan223]

Alternatively, there's facts:
All electric car home charge points must have 'smart' features to limit costs | This is Money

I wouldn't generally quote a daily mail article as "facts" however all this is saying is "Wall chargers installed in homes will require smart features that encourage cheaper, off-peak charging", no-where does it say this is done by anyone other than the end user.

 

[goRt]

I wouldn't generally quote a daily mail article as "facts" however all this is saying is "Wall chargers installed in homes will require smart features that encourage cheaper, off-peak charging", no-where does it say this is done by anyone other than the end user.

I quoted that as it had pictures for you.

Section 7:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...argepoint-scheme-technical-spec-july-2019.pdf

 

[TestPilot]

I quoted that as it had pictures for you.

Section 7:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...argepoint-scheme-technical-spec-july-2019.pdf

So where I am at with this is that there is no mention of the actual base means of connection to the device itself.
Protocol is mentioned but this is something that sits on top of the network infrastructure, it's not the infrastructure itself. It's like TCP can be over CAT 5 ethernet, WiFi, or an old fashioned terminated coax network.

Therefore, a device that has WiFi, connects to existing network infrastructure, and adheres to the protocols would meet this criteria.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm not convinced that turning WiFi off doesn't essentially turn a "smart" charge point into a dumb one, as you're taking its network access away! And nothing in that specification dictates that there must be a fallback should primary connectivity fail or be denied.

 

[dan223]

I quoted that as it had pictures for you.

Section 7:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...argepoint-scheme-technical-spec-july-2019.pdf

Unless I'm missing something this also has no information to suggest it?

The chargepoint must be able to receive and process information provided - ok so it needs to be able to receive and process information, i.e time ranges, stop start
To react to information received,by adjusting the rate of charging or discharging - again much the same as above, you tell it to stop start or adjust the rate at selected times
To monitor and record energy consumption, and be able to transmit this - Fair basic here, able to monitor and record the energy, transmit it, end user can see it?
The Open Charge Point Protocol(OCPP)version 1.6(or above), or an equivalent - this is pretty vague, I can't see this listed as a spec on a few smart chargers I have checked, so maybe WiFi or cellular is OK as an equivalent.

Either way none of those proves what you are suggesting, as far as I can see and understand this is all user controlled, with the end game for providers to give different homes different times to charge at lower rates, so it is balanced and not everyone charging at the same time, which all of these do.

 

[goRt]

So where I am at with this is that there is no mention of the actual base means of connection to the device itself.
Protocol is mentioned but this is something that sits on top of the network infrastructure, it's not the infrastructure itself. It's like TCP can be over CAT 5 ethernet, WiFi, or an old fashioned terminated coax network.

Therefore, a device that has WiFi, connects to existing network infrastructure, and adheres to the protocols would meet this criteria.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm not convinced that turning WiFi off doesn't essentially turn a "smart" charge point into a dumb one, as you're taking its network access away!

That was produced specifically to address @dan223's assertion that there was no remote control of smart charge points - that's why I quoted his post.

I'm very aware of the transport layers and this was not addressing that point. I await a response from my best mate on how the DNO communicates with the smart charge point.

 

[dan223]

So where I am at with this is that there is no mention of the actual base means of connection to the device itself.
Protocol is mentioned but this is something that sits on top of the network infrastructure, it's not the infrastructure itself. It's like TCP can be over CAT 5 ethernet, WiFi, or an old fashioned terminated coax network.

Therefore, a device that has WiFi, connects to existing network infrastructure, and adheres to the protocols would meet this criteria.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm not convinced that turning WiFi off doesn't essentially turn a "smart" charge point into a dumb one, as you're taking its network access away! And nothing in that specification dictates that there must be a fallback should primary connectivity fail or be denied.

Exactly, and even so your connecting to to a WiFi or cellular point, there is no requirement that this information will somehow be magically connected back to your electric provider. As mentioned the whole concept is to set start/stop times as well as charging rates, in accordance to your provider and to take advantage of cheaper charging times.

 

[TestPilot]

That was produced specifically to address @dan223's assertion that there was no remote control of smart charge points - that's why I quoted his post.

I'm very aware of the transport layers and this was not addressing that point. I await a response from my best mate on how the DNO communicates with the smart charge point.

KK, thanks

 

[goRt]

Unless I'm missing something this also has no information to suggest it?

The chargepoint must be able to receive and process information provided - ok so it needs to be able to receive and process information, i.e time ranges, stop start
To react to information received,by adjusting the rate of charging or discharging - again much the same as above, you tell it to stop start or adjust the rate at selected times
To monitor and record energy consumption, and be able to transmit this - Fair basic here, able to monitor and record the energy, transmit it, end user can see it?
The Open Charge Point Protocol(OCPP)version 1.6(or above), or an equivalent - this is pretty vague, I can't see this listed as a spec on a few smart chargers I have checked, so maybe WiFi or cellular is OK as an equivalent.

Either way none of those proves what you are suggesting, as far as I can see and understand this is all user controlled, with the end game for providers to give different homes different times to charge at lower rates, so it is balanced and not everyone charging at the same time, which all of these do.

It's unclear to me why you're singling me out for your approach when several others have already posted in greater detail.
Here's another article for you:
Government sets July 2019 date for smart EV charging deadline

 

[goRt]

Exactly, and even so your connecting to to a WiFi or cellular point, there is no requirement that this information will somehow be magically connected back to your electric provider. As mentioned the whole concept is to set start/stop times as well as charging rates, in accordance to your provider and to take advantage of cheaper charging times.

Stop confusing terms - energy provider is not the DNO who is interested in demand management/balancing on their network.
You energy provider only cares about usage for billing purposes.

 

[dan223]

It's unclear to me why you're singling me out for your approach when several others have already posted in greater detail.
Here's another article for you:
Government sets July 2019 date for smart EV charging deadline

I don't see anywhere that has posted in greater detail, which is why I'm responding to you I'm also a little fed up of all the fake info that gets spread whether this forum, facebook groups, or otherwise. If people don't know the proper answers then don't post

So this article from the beginning of the year, just a generic news website, doesn't mean this info is correct, but is the first time I have seen anything related to a "third party", but even so this doesn't suggest it is the DNO, most of these smart chargers use a third party app to access the smart features, and as the government document doesn't specify, then I don't know where they get that info from, and it doesn't seem to be enforced. And the fact is I know at least some of the smart chargers available don't have any other method to communicate other than WiFi or cellular so turning of these would result it being dumb regardless if a third party can control it. Obviously there could be some sort of law in the future imposed that you have to have it on, just like a normal meter, but even so the software built into these probably wouldn't be able to work without significant updates, and by the time these sort of things happen, I'm sure there will be a new generation that will communicate to the DNO or whoever to manage this.

Stop confusing terms - energy provider is not the DNO who is interested in demand management/balancing on their network.
You energy provider only cares about usage for billing purposes.

Apologises if I'm confusing terms but I actually think if anyone it will be the energy provider that will be enforcing this. Octopus already have tariffs in place that adjust pricing depending when there is a lower demand on the network, and they have some integration specifically with the zappi charger and app for there ev tarrif but no more than that, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for them to implement something for it to communicate with the charger to charge when there is low demand in the network, but none of these seems to be compulsory, and all of this is opt in.

 

[goRt]

I don't see anywhere that has posted in greater detail, which is why I'm responding to you I'm also a little fed up of all the fake info that gets spread whether this forum, facebook groups, or otherwise. If people don't know the proper answers then

So this article from the beginning of the year, just a generic news website, doesn't mean this info is correct, but is the first time I have seen anything related to a "third party", but even so this doesn't suggest it is the DNO, most of these smart chargers use a third party app to access the smart features, and as the government document doesn't specify, then I don't know where they get that info from, and it doesn't seem to be enforced. And the fact is I know at least some of the smart chargers available don't have any other method to communicate other than WiFi or cellular so turning of these would result it being dumb regardless if a third party can control it. Obviously there could be some sort of law in the future imposed that you have to have it on, just like a normal meter, but even so the software built into these probably wouldn't be able to work without significant updates, and by the time these sort of things happen, I'm sure there will be a new generation that will communicate to the DNO or whoever to manage this.


Apologises if I'm confusing terms but I actually think if anyone it will be the energy provider that will be enforcing this. Octopus already have tariffs in place that adjust pricing depending when there is a lower demand on the network, and they have some integration specifically with the zappi charger and app for there ev tarrif but no more than that, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for them to implement something for it to communicate with the charger to charge when there is low demand in the network, but none of these seems to be compulsory, and all of this is opt in.

Firstly they are not "smart chargers" the charger resides in the car, these are charge points.
You're confusing consumer functions i.e. what's going on with my charger right now, how much has flowed previously, etc. and what the DNO needs to know and manage.
Octopus is simply an energy vendor and doesn't care about demand on the network - that's the DNO's responsibility - you do know how the UK energy market works?
Octopus only knows about its users usage at various points in time, if there's only one Octopus customer in a street it has no access to the demand in the street from all the other users - but the DNO does know that and will control the flow - much better to have chargers throttled than, say, a few houses turned off without notice.
The "new generation" are here and being deployed since 1/Jul/19 if you wish to take advantage of the grant, all installers are required to notify the DNO before implementation so it's simple to stop non-smart instals.
If you've bought a house recently then you'll be aware of all of the paperwork requirements and certifications before a transaction can take place, if "your mate" has installed something without going through the correct process it will be disabled eventually.

 

[dan223]

Firstly they are not "smart chargers" the charger resides in the car, these are charge points.
You're confusing consumer functions i.e. what's going on with my charger right now, how much has flowed previously, etc. and what the DNO needs to know and manage.
Octopus is simply an energy vendor and doesn't care about demand on the network - that's the DNO's responsibility - you do know how the UK energy market works?
Octopus only knows about its users usage at various points in time, if there's only one Octopus customer in a street it has no access to the demand in the street from all the other users - but the DNO does know that and will control the flow - much better to have chargers throttled than, say, a few houses turned off without notice.
The "new generation" are here and being deployed since 1/Jul/19 if you wish to take advantage of the grant, all installers are required to notify the DNO before implementation so it's simple to stop non-smart instals.
If you've bought a house recently then you'll be aware of all of the paperwork requirements and certifications before a transaction can take place, if "your mate" has installed something without going through the correct process it will be disabled eventually.

Sounds like we are going to go round in circles.
A lot of sites refer to it as smart chargers.

Octopus say “Across the UK, whenever more electricity is generated than consumed, energy prices fall – sometimes to the point where prices drop below zero, and suppliers are paid to take energy off the grid.” doesn’t sound like they are basing it on other octopus customers they are basing it on the grid demands.

I’m not saying installers don’t have to notify the DNO, I’m just saying I don’t believe the current smart charge points can be controlled in any way in there current form by the DNO and even so if they did they are relying on the WiFi or cellular connection. That’s all I’m trying to say. I think the current smart charge points that are around are purely to charge at off peak times and so that the load can be spread via different tariffs in different areas in the future. If DNOs need to control individual charge points it seems like a massive job for them to implement such and I’m sure when it gets round to this they will need to be changed because the current form will not be suitable.

 

[goRt]

Sounds like we are going to go round in circles.
A lot of sites refer to it as smart chargers.

Octopus say “Across the UK, whenever more electricity is generated than consumed, energy prices fall – sometimes to the point where prices drop below zero, and suppliers are paid to take energy off the grid.” doesn’t sound like they are basing it on other octopus customers they are basing it on the grid demands.

I’m not saying installers don’t have to notify the DNO, I’m just saying I don’t believe the current smart charge points can be controlled in any way in there current form by the DNO and even so if they did they are relying on the WiFi or cellular connection. That’s all I’m trying to say. I think the current smart charge points that are around are purely to charge at off peak times and so that the load can be spread via different tariffs in different areas in the future. If DNOs need to control individual charge points it seems like a massive job for them to implement such and I’m sure when it gets round to this they will need to be changed because the current form will not be suitable.

@Peteski reports at the top of this page that he was on the trial.
Smart charge points are now capable of being controlled by the dno to manage the demand on its network.
It seems likely that the smart charge points default to 3kw in the event that Comms become unavailable.
It's a much smaller job to manage the charge points than turn out the lights or send the fire brigade round as no one is funding the extra infrastructure to deliver to the households.
The protocol in the document that all charge points are now certified to is for the dno to throttle.

Octopus pricing is irrelevant to the dno managing the load.

 

[MrBadger]

No specifics, don't shoot the messenger - these are the plans and the research.
Everyone is ahead of the curve at present, so it is not happening now.

How smart charging can help unlock flexible capacity from EVs - Power Responsive

How EVs can help drive a more sustainable energy future - Open Energi

Link at end of first one is to the second linked article.