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Smart Summon disallowed in BC

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,085
Vernon, BC, Canada
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/...rless-smart-summon-feature-not-allowed-in-b-c

tl;dr: ICBC says drivers need to control cars when on roads, so also parking lots.

B.C.’s government-run insurance body says the sort of driverless operation made possible by Tesla’s new Smart Summon feature is prohibited in the province, and that collisions involving Smart Summon may not be covered

...

“Currently, B.C. laws do not permit driverless vehicles on our roads,” ICBC said in a statement. “A vehicle being driven autonomously in a shopping mall parking lot, for example, is not allowed. The driver is responsible for the operation of the vehicle including when driver assistance is activated.”

...

However, drivers generally aren’t even allowed to take their hands off the steering wheel while in a vehicle controlled by semi-autonomous tech, so their being completely outside the vehicle should be, by extension, prohibited, too.

I'm personally unclear on if our parking lots follow general road laws or not. I was under the impression parking lot incidents follow a different process anyways.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,314
7,396
Maine
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/...rless-smart-summon-feature-not-allowed-in-b-c

tl;dr: ICBC says drivers need to control cars when on roads, so also parking lots.



I'm personally unclear on if our parking lots follow general road laws or not. I was under the impression parking lot incidents follow a different process anyways.

According to a May 2018 article from the Globe and Mail, rules of the road also apply on private property accessible to the public.

Do the rules of the road apply in shopping centre parking lots?

Globe and Mail said:
"In Alberta, the Traffic Safety Act applies anywhere a car can be driven that's accessible to the public, even if it's privately owned," says Trent Bancarz, spokesman for Alberta Transportation. "So, yes, stop signs and speed limits on parking lots have the force the law."

...

In B.C., it works the same way under the province's Motor Vehicle Act. The police have to be called if damage is over $1,000 or if there's an injury.

There might be nuances to it, but it seems like an employee parking lot would be different to a shopping mall parking lot.
 

BEPA400

Member
May 1, 2019
341
270
Canada
Better change your tesla account address to Ontario before the next update! Looks like Ontario is the only province in Canada where provincial traffic laws do not apply.. that was aSurprise to me.

I’m doubly surprised this was even noticed in Richmond. isn’t that how everyone there drives?? I’ve used smart summon in several parking lots in Vancouver and besides others tailgating my car to the point it stops to ‘wait for pedestrian’, nobody has made a fuss.

Then again I only do it within sight.. I think that part bears repeating.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,355
6,023
Snohomish, WA
Makes no sense to me.

Canada approved smart summon. In fact Canadians had to wait a few weeks while their government approved it.

They approved it knowing full well what was happening in the states where people were using it irresponsibly.
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,085
Vernon, BC, Canada
According to a May 2018 article from the Globe and Mail, rules of the road also apply on private property accessible to the public.

Do the rules of the road apply in shopping centre parking lots?



There might be nuances to it, but it seems like an employee parking lot would be different to a shopping mall parking lot.

Ah, now that you bring it up, that distinction does ring a bell. Thanks for the reminder!

Makes no sense to me.

Canada approved smart summon. In fact Canadians had to wait a few weeks while their government approved it.

They approved it knowing full well what was happening in the states where people were using it irresponsibly.

Provinces can and do disagree with federal, just as states disagree with federal. Provinces/states have laws that are supplementary or contradictory to federal law. Given that, it seems understandable that some provinces might have objections. BC probably has the most Teslas outside of QC/ON I'd bet, so the topic would come up faster than other provinces.

The truth hurts but Smart Summon sucks. It hardly works correctly so I’m on board with this, it is not and was not ready for prime time.

At the end of the day, this is pretty much the crux of it. It drives on the wrong side of the lanes which was pointed out in the video that was brought to ICBC's attention (and not because something was in its way), making it obvious that it's not following the laws of the road. Driverless cars don't get a pass for the same behaviours real drivers would be found at fault for.
 

Ol'Blue

Member
Oct 12, 2018
244
138
Vancouver
I agree, was not ready for release, and whoever owned that car just set Tesla backwards. That was the main drive into the parking lot, the car should have been nowhere near that busy intersection.
 

Pilot7478

Member
Mar 13, 2018
182
139
Toronto, ON Canada
What would happen if a driver was sitting in this car driving and somebody would record this video?
In worst case scenario, that driver would face a fine and that's it. Nobody would talk about banning cars or banning bad drivers on parking lots.

In my opinion, the same approach should be applied in this Smart Summon case - this particular driver who operated the car using Smart Summon should be punished, but not the feature (car) or other drivers who operate Smart Summon responsibly.
 

Ol'Blue

Member
Oct 12, 2018
244
138
Vancouver
I agree with you.

I just don’t think the feature is ready for the average driver yet.

it’s for quiet lots when others aren’t around. This person did it right at a main entrance to a busy mall. Terrible thinking. Perhaps even selfish thinking?
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,085
Vernon, BC, Canada
What would happen if a driver was sitting in this car driving and somebody would record this video?
In worst case scenario, that driver would face a fine and that's it. Nobody would talk about banning cars or banning bad drivers on parking lots.

In my opinion, the same approach should be applied in this Smart Summon case - this particular driver who operated the car using Smart Summon should be punished, but not the feature (car) or other drivers who operate Smart Summon responsibly.

Fines work as a corrective action. Humans can be corrected by such means, which is why they're acceptable. Smart Summon can't and won't change its behaviour by either it or its human controller (via the app) being fined.

The core problem is that Smart Summon will continue to do the wrong thing when requested to do anything right now. Many humans can navigate a parking lot mostly legally.
 

pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Fines work as a corrective action. Humans can be corrected by such means, which is why they're acceptable. Smart Summon can't and won't change its behaviour by either it or its human controller (via the app) being fined.

The core problem is that Smart Summon will continue to do the wrong thing when requested to do anything right now. Many humans can navigate a parking lot mostly legally.
Smart summon needs a human to initiate it. It doesn't go around enabling itself.

The human is responsible for knowing the limitations of smart summon. It's clearly listed when you enable it that you are responsible for your cars actions and need to be in visual distance to maintain control at all times.

You say fining the driver works, but fining the owner using his/her smart phone to do smart summon won't work? Doesn't add up ...

Smart summon will get better with time, I know many bad drivers that aren't getting any better :)

Simple (IMHO)
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,085
Vernon, BC, Canada
Smart summon needs a human to initiate it.

The human is responsible for knowing the limitations of smart summon. It's clearly listed when you enable it that you are responsible for your cars actions.

It will get better with time, much quicker than most drivers.

Simple (IMHO)

You raise an entirely fair point. It does seem that people are more willing to hold a button and let their car do something awkward or illegal versus doing it themselves from the driver's seat though. Maybe simply because it can indeed be a party trick, or they're curious.

Humans already navigate parking lots extremely well, and thus why Tesla/Elon noted it was actually much more difficult than expected (and not just "simple") to implement Smart Summon in lots. It's especially complicated because you interact with other drivers in ways that aren't true for normal roadways. Yes, I'm aware of all the odd things and bumps that happen in parking lots with humans driving.
 
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pcons

M3 AWD+
Jul 5, 2018
1,627
1,668
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
You raise an entirely fair point. It does seem that people are more willing to hold a button and let their car do something awkward or illegal versus doing it themselves from the driver's seat though. Maybe simply because it can indeed be a party trick, or they're curious.

Humans already navigate parking lots extremely well, and thus why Tesla/Elon noted it was actually much more difficult than expected (and not just "simple") to implement Smart Summon in lots. It's especially complicated because you interact with other drivers in ways that aren't true for normal roadways. Yes, I'm aware of all the odd things and bumps that happen in parking lots with humans driving.
For sure right now it's more of a party trick. I don't use it in any situation where there are lots of other drivers, and certainly not in something like a Costco congested parking lot. Even when it works well, it goes way to slow and people get mad.

But I do try and use it as much as possible in the hopes it speeds the learning. Even good drivers had to learn on the road in real situations after doing the driving theory, and this is no different. There have been millions of 'successful' summon events with relatively few incidents. I'd say fewer smart summon incidents than ones in parking lots by humans in the same amount of time?

As someone said above: imagine every time someone did a dumb thing in a parking lot if the video went viral.

Does the feature need to get better? Yes.

Are people's lives in danger by a car travelling at 5 km/h and stops dead when the wind changes direction? Hard no :)

Tesla coded smart summon with the expectation that real world experience would make it better. One of the things I tell people when I show them is to point out how a 'simple' task like navigating a parking lot is really really complicated when you break it down.

I do hope regulators don't step in and impede progress here. It's inevitable, and the nicer we are now to our eventual robot overlords the better our lives will be when skynet takes over :D
 

Vawlkus

Active Member
Feb 28, 2017
1,543
789
Halifax
Did anyone else catch the link on the front page of TMC where they posted a link to where the Open Maps are, so that people can trace in the routes that are safe for Teslas to use?
 

Roald44

Member
Feb 13, 2020
132
33
Coquitlam, BC
And here I am looking all over the app for smart summon only to find out it's a disabled feature in BC -_- That's nice. I wonder who was ultimately responsible for that decision.
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,085
Vernon, BC, Canada
And here I am looking all over the app for smart summon only to find out it's a disabled feature in BC -_- That's nice. I wonder who was ultimately responsible for that decision.

A wise person who doesn't want to fight the wrong legal battles or be liable in any. (Assuming you mean who at Tesla would disable)
 

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