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SMETS2 capable 3-phase meters (and energy suppliers!)

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Now then.

I'm aware that Octopus and Good Energy have had direct measuring (as opposed to indirect/CT measuring) 3-phase SMETS2 compliant meters available to swap for a little while now for (up to 100A-per phase) supplies , but

1. Are there any other energy suppliers offering these now?

2. Are there any SMETS2 indirect (CT compliant) meters in the market for 200A supplies?

Many thanks
 
I have a 3 Phase supply with a SMETS2 meter

The National Grid policy now is 80 amps per phase.

National Grid email Quote:

I have been passed your enquiry regarding your supply at the above property for a possible fuse upgrade?

The largest fuse size that we install into 100amp cut-outs is 80amps.

Most devices have a limiter on which is set at 80amps due to this being the largest fuse size that can be installed into the 100amp cut-outs.

it is a policy we as national grid adhere too, there are very strict factors in place where some supplies can have 100amps installed however it is very rare,

older properties may also have 100amp fuses from years gone by. All new supplies/upgrades now are fused at 80amps.

Anything above this needs a 200amp heavy duty cut-out for 100amp fuses, this also is rarely required once load studies with diversity have been carried out.

END QUOTE
 
I have a 3 Phase supply with a SMETS2 meter

The National Grid policy now is 80 amps per phase.

National Grid email Quote:

I have been passed your enquiry regarding your supply at the above property for a possible fuse upgrade?

The largest fuse size that we install into 100amp cut-outs is 80amps.

Most devices have a limiter on which is set at 80amps due to this being the largest fuse size that can be installed into the 100amp cut-outs.

it is a policy we as national grid adhere too, there are very strict factors in place where some supplies can have 100amps installed however it is very rare,

older properties may also have 100amp fuses from years gone by. All new supplies/upgrades now are fused at 80amps.

Anything above this needs a 200amp heavy duty cut-out for 100amp fuses, this also is rarely required once load studies with diversity have been carried out.

END QUOTE
is that National Grid as in the new owner of Western Power - the DNO?

I think that's a DNO policy as I own a property with 100A per phase in Suffolk (UK Power Networks is the DNO)
 
is that National Grid as in the new owner of Western Power - the DNO?

I think that's a DNO policy as I own a property with 100A per phase in Suffolk (UK Power Networks is the DNO)

Yes, Western Power now National Grid

Once my second 22 kW charger has been installed (20th March 2023) ... I'll be revisiting them for a survey to pursue a higher amp cutout again.

I think they gave me a standard answer, but once they see my calculations on blowing their fuses with actual equipment onsite... they might understand better.
 
Do you have any EVs actually capable of pulling the 32A per phase, though? I thought it was only really the Zoe that did that…

Not yet no. But that doesn't mean it'll always be like that.

Tesla Model 3 Performance = 11 kW (16 amps per phase

Skoda Enyaq VRS = 11 kW (16 amps per phase)

Guest car on 7 kW (32 amps on L1)

Powerwalls = 10 kW (40 amps on L1)

Etc...

This is what it was like the other night, but then add another 11 kW car charging...

Screenshot_20230107_003255_myenergi.jpg
 
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I think they gave me a standard answer, but once they see my calculations on blowing their fuses with actual equipment onsite... they might understand better.
Yeah I had to provide various calculations / evidence for current draw to support the upgrade and requested sizing. It was more or less a formality to satisfy the DNO designer that signs it off.
 
Answering my own post.

Looks like Octopus are keen and are progressing. OVO are still in limited trial with 3-phase, so not much changed there in the 2.5 years I first asked them. Haven’t approached Good Energy yet. Can see the British Gas are now offering SMETS2 for commercial customers.
 
Well jel. I'm supposed to be working on a barn conversion where we've got a three-phase supply, and in the near future I need to be daydreaming about what electric kit we can have installed.

When I first started this project, some people thought I was barking mad... suggesting even that a 3 pin plug socket charger was enough to charge an Ev.

In some respects they're right. If you're prepared to wait hours, risk paying Peak Rate electric for a small commute distance.

But I viewed electric supply like Internet bandwidth.

Sure, in the very early days, having a dialup Internet modem was novel, a new experience downloading a Web page. But it soon wears thin when you want streaming media services.

3 Phase allows us to have so many things working at once, it should be mandatory on all new built houses, in my opinion.
 
3 Phase allows us to have so many things working at once, it should be mandatory on all new built houses, in my opinion.
Possibly off-topic, but have you come across any good resources for understanding how to design such a system? We need a 22kWp PV rig to be self-sufficient (we use 22kWh/day, and in December we'll get the equivalent of one full hour of sunshine). I was speaking to folks at Joju at Fully Charged Live/Grand Designs Live (I can't remember which, they were one day after the other) and they said that there's a maximum load that you can put on each phase, so it could start getting tricky. Additionally one building might be a holiday let, which might further confuse things.

I like to try and understand things from first principles (which is why I've had the dubious pleasure of reading the entire National Planning Policy Framework, Local Plan, Draft Local Plan, AONB Management Plan, Kent Design Guide...) so if there's any accessible starting point you know of to learn about this stuff, I'd be really grateful if you could point me in the right direction.
 
Possibly off-topic, but have you come across any good resources for understanding how to design such a system? We need a 22kWp PV rig to be self-sufficient (we use 22kWh/day, and in December we'll get the equivalent of one full hour of sunshine). I was speaking to folks at Joju at Fully Charged Live/Grand Designs Live (I can't remember which, they were one day after the other) and they said that there's a maximum load that you can put on each phase, so it could start getting tricky. Additionally one building might be a holiday let, which might further confuse things.

I like to try and understand things from first principles (which is why I've had the dubious pleasure of reading the entire National Planning Policy Framework, Local Plan, Draft Local Plan, AONB Management Plan, Kent Design Guide...) so if there's any accessible starting point you know of to learn about this stuff, I'd be really grateful if you could point me in the right direction.

No actually, sorry.

... in my experience, I've had to learn a lot, and in some instances guide the electricians in the retro-fit design of our house... it took some creative thinking and a bit of planning.

Our house originally was on a looped supply single phase (L1) which had to be removed. But I didn't want that setup (L1) to change as we already had two Powerwalls on (L1) backing it all up through a Tesla Gateway 2, also wired single phase on (L1), and a Solar Array. The house still has it's own single phase consumer unit.

I then had a 7 kW Zappi charger installed directly onto the Gateway 2 unit on the Grid Tied side. This allows us to charge the cars directly from the Tesla Powerwalls at 7kW (removing the excess Solar minimum limit of 1.4kW). This generally means nothing is exported to the grid and we use all the Solar regardless of how much trickles into the Powerwalls.

Then I installed a 32amp Commando Socket on the Tesla Gateway 2 backup side. This means during a Grid blackout we have access to emergency car charging at 7kW.

When 3 Phase was installed we had the 3 phase distribution board installed outside, on the kitchen wall. So when we extend the kitchen we can get access to 3 phase power for fancy kitchen appliances.

This also meant the two 22kW chargers could be wired into this distribution unit, taking advantage of a staggered primary phase.

Ie... First Zappi 22kW wired on primary phase L2 (looks like L2,L3,L1)

Second Zappi 22kW wired on primary phase L3 (looks like L3, L2, L1)

This means during heavy load balancing, each charger could automatically default to it's own 7kW phase. One charger on L1, one charger on L2, one charger on L3.

With the house and backup set on (L1), we're introducing new loads setup on L2 and L3 ... like Heat Pumps (I use plural as we have an Air to Air Heat Pump, and I may install a Air to Water version as well). But anything on L2 or L3 is not backed up on Powerwalls.

So all in all, it works great. Some real heavy lifting, all our house is on backup, and most of it is done at cheap rate on Smart Meter and Ev Tariff.
 
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Possibly off-topic, but have you come across any good resources for understanding how to design such a system? We need a 22kWp PV rig to be self-sufficient (we use 22kWh/day, and in December we'll get the equivalent of one full hour of sunshine). I was speaking to folks at Joju at Fully Charged Live/Grand Designs Live (I can't remember which, they were one day after the other) and they said that there's a maximum load that you can put on each phase, so it could start getting tricky. Additionally one building might be a holiday let, which might further confuse things.

I like to try and understand things from first principles (which is why I've had the dubious pleasure of reading the entire National Planning Policy Framework, Local Plan, Draft Local Plan, AONB Management Plan, Kent Design Guide...) so if there's any accessible starting point you know of to learn about this stuff, I'd be really grateful if you could point me in the right direction.

Just one thing I would say...

You're looking at a massive 22 kWp Solar Array, but no mention of storage batteries.

In my opinion, it's the storage batteries and sized correctly that will prevent peak grid use.

A massive Solar Array will just pump huge power into the Grid during the day, and give you nothing at night.

A solar array on it's own is also grid-tied by UK Law... so it doesn't even work for you in a Grid Outage.

Getting the battery storage capacity (kWh energy) and discharge capability (kW power) right... will sort you out in Summer, Winter, Night time etc and with a gateway, can island your house during a blackout so everything still works.

Our system is 7.2 kWp but our battery storage is 27 kWh... as an example.

My 'perfect' setup would be 11.2 kWp and 50 kWh storage.

Remember the Grid isn't the enemy, and providing you have access to it, use it with Smart Meters and cheap rate download.
 
I also think Vehicle to Home (V2H) is a fail as well... and I can see why Tesla aren't keen on it.

A modern house can have huge demands and although it seems a perfect opportunity to take advantage of that massive battery storage (kWh energy) in a vehicle... the capability to get that back into the house at high capacity would be a problem.

Much better to use static home storage that's wired specifically to deal with high demand... and it physically doesn't need to disconnect and go anywhere (like a car)
 
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If you are exporting in L1 and importing on L2 does the meter record a separate export and import?

Last year we exported 2% ... so it's very rare.

As L2 is used only for car charging at night. I've never experienced your question. Sorry.

But it is a good question, thought provoking...

Does the power wall monitor all phases to decide when to discharge even if only installed as single phase?

In our setup, the Powerwalls only monitor L1. It'll only supply hardware wired into L1.

If I wanted all Phases to have backup, I would need to install a Powerwall on each phase.
 
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the capability to get that back into the house at high capacity would be a problem

I'd be happy with it to supplement my static battery.

My static battery is sized to be "about right" for a Summer day. In practice that means that on days when we aren't baking and tumble drying we have excess that goes into the car. But ...

... on an overcast summer day we are short, to get through the night. V2H would give me enough top-up that would be worthwhile, and it would also mean that I was exporting less often - I export when we get a run of sunny days and I don't drive far enough to create enough EV battery space. If V2H was used on overcast days there would be battery-space for a run of sunny days.

In Summer I get around 1,000 miles a month off the roof (in addition to 90% of overall house usage). V2H would give me such a big battery that it would easily buffer the other 10% house usage (plus I have 2 EVs should could shuffle which one was providing V2H)

In Winter battery is charged overnight on Off Peak. It covers a winters day provided that the sun shines a reasonable bit AND we are not baking and tumble drying :) V2H would also help me with top up. Looking at a recent "average winter day" I get roughly 10% from PV, 30% from Off Peak battery charge and 60% from grid on a baking and tumble drying winter day. Of course the PV can be close to 0% if the day is overcast, and on a really sunny non-baking day I get to charge the car a little bit - but that is very very few days during winter.

I think that V2H would give me a more useful buffer than over-specing static battery for "worst case" instead of my current "big enough to rarely export to grid"

Perhaps best (for me) would be that V2H provided low AMPs all day every day (in Winter at least), and then Static Battery only used for "top up" when house is needing more. (On days when I need to drive somewhere and need a full EV battery I could do a STOP on V2H)
 
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