So what did we think of the Top Gear (TV show) M3 review then?

[12Pack]

Being of both EV (MS P100D daily driver for commuting) and ICE (lightweight performance: Ariel Atom, Mac 675) persuasion,here are my comments:

I thought the show adequately pointed to the dichotomy currently in the EV world - the lack of suitable affordable EV's including city charging concerns, and the separation of Tesla being in a class of its own as a complete car including charging.

As far as the M3 performance testing is concerned - at my risk here in this forum I have on several occasions pointed out that I don't see it as a performance car. Neither are the "sports" saloons they compared it to. Along with the MS and MX, it is the consummate car for everything but sheer performance driving - effortlessly powerful in the everyday world - smooth and silent - just the way it should be.

And before anyone starts jumping on me about my comment about about it not being a performance car, I can only point to the comparison to, say, the 675LT on that track leaderboard, and my own subjective experience of driving pleasure that comes with light weight and hydraulic steering feel.


And BTW have a 2020 roadster on order (just preempting the other comments I get like - "wait till the new roadster comes..")

 

[Peteski]

Being of both EV (MS P100D daily driver for commuting) and ICE (lightweight performance: Ariel Atom, Mac 675) persuasion,here are my comments:

I thought the show adequately pointed to the dichotomy currently in the EV world - the lack of suitable affordable EV's including city charging concerns, and the separation of Tesla being in a class of its own as a complete car including charging.

As far as the M3 performance testing is concerned - at my risk here in this forum I have on several occasions pointed out that I don't see it as a performance car. Neither are the "sports" saloons they compared it to. Along with the MS and MX, it is the consummate car for everything but sheer performance driving - effortlessly powerful in the everyday world - smooth and silent - just the way it should be.

And before anyone starts jumping on me about my comment about about it not being a performance car, I can only point to the comparison to, say, the 675LT on that track leaderboard, and my own subjective experience of driving pleasure that comes with light weight and hydraulic steering feel.


And BTW have a 2020 roadster on order (just preempting the other comments I get like - "wait till the new roadster comes..")

So are you basically trying to say that anything other than a full on no-compromise 2-seat sports car or super car is NOT a performance car?

Personally I think the M3P belongs in the obvious class that it was compared against here i.e. ultra-high performance saloons. Nobody is seriously going to be comparing any of these to an Atom or 675 for track or road use.

If you seriously value light weight for ultimate performance (and of course you should), then not sure why you have ordered a Tesla Roadster? I really don't think that will be a "performance car" by your narrow definition either.

 

[Jason71]

Having now watched the TG review I have to say these guys appear to know next to nothing about EVs, so I don't see much value in their opinion, especially when it comes to actually living with an EV. .

Problem is their opinion may be the first one many people who don't follow the car market / EV's get and the main takeaway will have been its very quick and makes fart noises. Given all the mis-information that exists (some of which was persisted in other segments on the same show, by spending half of it in an old leaf with a 35 mile range) it was a bit of an opportunity missed.

 

[WannabeOwner]

the consummate car for everything but sheer performance driving

Not disagreeing with your conclusions, but no one I know is buying a car capable of track use ... and I only know one person who takes a car to a track several times a year and he's got some flavour of Porsche with 5-point harness for that job ... and I am pretty doubtful about "performance driving" either.

I do read of people (more so on the iPace forums) talking about "a driver's car" (and the iPace lot think that ticks their boxes).

So when do they do this "driving"? (And you @12Pack too, in USA? Not sure my question is even influenced by where you are in USA

Most of my journeys are trogging along the highway a few MPH over the speed limit. A reasonable proportion of those journeys is stuck in traffic / roadworks. I don't need good cornering ability ...

I am very much persuaded that the better EV driving-style is "slow into corner, fast out" for which any EV excels, and its ability to go around the corner "like a leech with vertigo" is very rarely needed

On a country road if I chuck the car into the corner I am unlikely to be safe - unless it happens that I can see around the bend. If I'm in the Fens that might be the case but on almost all rural roads I drive there are hedgerows blocking my view, so I run the very real risk that I come around a blind bend "fully committed" only to find that I have a full blown Drama on my hands ...

So I am comfortable that "corner then punch-it" is a lot of fun, without the risk.

 

[EVMeister]

Apparently the drag race was actually done at 87% charge - chris harris on Twitter. I'm no expert on the Merc, but from what people are saying it costs £100K in that spec? The Model 3 was going well over 100mph before it caught up as well, quite useless on the street.

 

[Peteski]

Problem is their opinion may be the first one many people who don't follow the car market / EV's get and the main takeaway will have been its very quick and makes fart noises. Given all the mis-information that exists (some of which was persisted in other segments on the same show, by spending half of it in an old leaf with a 35 mile range) it was a bit of an opportunity missed.

Depends what "message" they are actually trying to promote. My feeling is that they are a bunch of dinosaurs still in denial of EVs, but grudgingly conceding that they may not be as bad as they first imagined. No doubt a fairly common view among petrol heads!

 

[Peteski]

Apparently the drag race was actually done at 87% charge - chris harris on Twitter. I'm no expert on the Merc, but from what people are saying it costs £100K in that spec? The Model 3 was going well over 100mph before it caught up as well, quite useless on the street.

Plus the Model 3 would punch away from the Merc from any rolling speed under 100 mph just because of the instant response and no need to kick-down any gears to get going. In real world traffic situations that's always going to be more useful. My relatively slow MX 75D is still awesome when it comes to response, whether its overtaking on a B-road or nipping into a gap in traffic. ICE cars just simply don't have that kind of flexibility in their powertrain.

 

[interbear]

Depends what "message" they are actually trying to promote. My feeling is that they are a bunch of dinosaurs still in denial of EVs, but grudgingly conceding that they may not be as bad as they first imagined. No doubt a fairly common view among petrol heads!

I tend to agree. A show that is reliant on and will still get much PR lobbying from the “traditional” fossil fuel based car manufacturers is hardly going to go full tilt on EV until the overall balance in the market shifts in that direction and those traditional manufacturers have a more credible story to tell. Realistically EVs are still in the early adoption phase so for a couple of years yet I reckon Top Gear will continue to favour playing about in noisy, expensive ICE cars. When their PR lobbyists and paymasters start going EV, it’ll change.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Not disagreeing with your conclusions, but no one I know is buying a car capable of track use ... and I only know one person who takes a car to a track several times a year and he's got some flavour of Porsche with 5-point harness for that job ... and I am pretty doubtful about "performance driving" either.
.

I already know of a few future M3P owners who want to track theirs and I believe it's going to make a very capable track car (albeit with a few modifications, but that's often necessary for ICE cars too).

Trackdays attract a very wide spectrum of drivers and vehicles. At one end are the supercar owners who want to enjoy their car's performance safely and the other end are the cheap sheds for people who just want improve their skills and have some fun.

 

[Peteski]

I tend to agree. A show that is reliant on and will still get much PR lobbying from the “traditional” fossil fuel based car manufacturers is hardly going to go full tilt on EV until the overall balance in the market shifts in that direction and those traditional manufacturers have a more credible story to tell. Realistically EVs are still in the early adoption phase so for a couple of years yet I reckon Top Gear will continue to favour playing about in noisy, expensive ICE cars. When their PR lobbyists and paymasters start going EV, it’ll change.

Spot on. If they said ICE is dead and EV is the new king, then they basically don't have a viable show for the next few years. Harris is very much an old-school petrolhead too. EVs are simply not his thing! Though it did make them all look slightly ignorant from the perspective of an EV owner / petrolhead convert!

The "homemade EV" part of the show was also extremely negative toward EVs and I thought it was interesting to position this piece directly ahead of the M3 review. It set up a perfect negative stereotype for all the petrol sniffers to take in.

 

[12Pack]

So are you basically trying to say that anything other than a full on no-compromise 2-seat sports car or super car is NOT a performance car?

If you seriously value light weight for ultimate performance (and of course you should), then not sure why you have ordered a Tesla Roadster? I really don't think that will be a "performance car" by your narrow definition either.

Answer to the first question is - yes. I perhaps controversially find I only enjoy a pure driving experience with such cars. I do enjoy a powerful saloon/SUV as well - but more for effortless commuting. - based on my ownership over the years of myriad variants.

I (and I'm not alone in this) really see the escalation of the horsepower wars leading to "high performance" saloons and now even SUV's as marketing by automakers to create/follow a market in conjunction with publications of "...surprising performance given its weight"-type heavyweights with atrocious turn-in, slow transitions and unresponsive braking.

To answer another question above, I am based in the UK but spend almost 50% of my time in the US, where I have been renting . The 2020 roaster will be in the US where I don't current own a car. I see as a replacement for the MS - as much for its range as for any performance.

The "performance" EV I would pine for is this The Pininfarina Battista is a 1,900bhp hyper-EV - with its central "mid-battery" layout its seems to have potential - though I doubt I'd ever be able to afford it.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Trackdays attract a very wide spectrum of drivers and vehicles

Yes, sorry, I was being a bit flippant. For all those track-day folk the huge majority of their driving will be the boring stuff, and I think real-world opportunity to need a proper driver's car is all but non-existent.

Or do folk here really "drive like I stole it" the majority of the time? maybe getting old is clouding my view?

 

[12Pack]

Most of my journeys are trogging along the highway a few MPH over the speed limit. A reasonable proportion of those journeys is stuck in traffic / roadworks. I don't need good cornering ability ...

I am very much persuaded that the better EV driving-style is "slow into corner, fast out" for which any EV excels, and its ability to go around the corner "like a leech with vertigo" is very rarely needed

On a country road if I chuck the car into the corner I am unlikely to be safe - unless it happens that I can see around the bend. If I'm in the Fens that might be the case but on almost all rural roads I drive there are hedgerows blocking my view, so I run the very real risk that I come around a blind bend "fully committed" only to find that I have a full blown Drama on my hands ...

So I am comfortable that "corner then punch-it" is a lot of fun, without the risk.

Indeed I think your description of everyday driving fits mine as well - and I did mean performance driving as on the track ((though I do have a nice B road close at hand for early Sunday morning hoons). I'm on track usually once a month with racing licences in the UK (Oulton Park) and in the US (Willow Springs).

 

[WannabeOwner]

I'm on track usually once a month with racing licences in the UK

Thanks. Maybe the other people online who are saying "I have to have a drivers car" are doing that too. I should ask, rather than assume!

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Yes, sorry, I was being a bit flippant. For all those track-day folk the huge majority of their driving will be the boring stuff, and I think real-world opportunity to need a proper driver's car is all but non-existent.

Or do folk here really "drive like I stole it" the majority of the time? maybe getting old is clouding my view?

Well I tend to, but I can't speak for everyone else. Despite the number of cameras going up, there are still opportunities to enjoy road driving at a brisk pace if you are observant and manage the risks. There's still a big difference between fast road driving and track driving though. I'm not a complete maniac.

 

[Peteski]

Answer to the first question is - yes. I perhaps controversially find I only enjoy a pure driving experience with such cars. I do enjoy a powerful saloon/SUV as well - but more for effortless commuting. - based on my ownership over the years of myriad variants.

I (and I'm not alone in this) really see the escalation of the horsepower wars leading to "high performance" saloons and now even SUV's as marketing by automakers to create/follow a market in conjunction with publications of "...surprising performance given its weight"-type heavyweights with atrocious turn-in, slow transitions and unresponsive braking.

To answer another question above, I am based in the UK but spend almost 50% of my time in the US, where I have been renting . The 2020 roaster will be in the US where I don't current own a car. I see as a replacement for the MS - as much for its range as for any performance.

The "performance" EV I would pine for is this The Pininfarina Battista is a 1,900bhp hyper-EV - with its central "mid-battery" layout its seems to have potential - though I doubt I'd ever be able to afford it.

Personally I quite like high performance saloons and SUVs for everyday driving and IME they are plenty quick enough for any public roads. I don't personally compare them directly to out-and-out sports cars. I certainly wouldn't buy a Model 3 primarily as a track day weapon, but to say it's not a performance car (at least the "Performance" version) is nothing but elitist posturing IMHO.

 

[Peteski]

Well I tend to, but I can't speak for everyone else. Despite the number of cameras going up, there are still opportunities to enjoy road driving at a brisk pace if you are observant and manage the risks. There's still a big difference between fast road driving and track driving though. I'm not a complete maniac.

Even a modest hot hatch is capable of hooning along a public B-road at outrageously illegal anti-social speeds, so I don't see much point in supercars for that kind of use. Anything north of say a bog standard Porsche Cayman doesn't make you any quicker from A-B unless you are prepared to take extreme risks to get there. On track it's different of course, but then it's mainly down to driver skill. Most track day warriors are lapping many seconds off the pace of what their car is actually capable of.

 

[WannabeOwner]

OK, I'll have another go

Track use aside (I get that), what, if any, is the benefit of a "Driver's Car" on day-to-day journeys?

I think that Straight-line-EV-punch is better (more useful day-to-day) than my previous "Boy Racer, Rev it Hard" - is that correct, or have I just persuaded myself of that?

Do the iPace boys have a point that they have better "driver's cars" for day-to-day driving?

(Yeah, I know, they have to plug in for at least an hour to "Rapid Charge", and that's after spending an hour trying to find a pump that is a) working and b) actually going to be compatible with their firmware patches)

 

[Peteski]

OK, I'll have another go

Track use aside (I get that), what, if any, is the benefit of a "Driver's Car" on day-to-day journeys?

I think that Straight-line-EV-punch is better (more useful day-to-day) than my previous "Boy Racer, Rev it Hard" - is that correct, or have I just persuaded myself of that?

Do the iPace boys have a point that they have better "driver's cars" for day-to-day driving?

(Yeah, I know, they have to plug in for at least an hour to "Rapid Charge", and that's after spending an hour trying to find a pump that is a) working and b) actually going to be compatible with their firmware patches)

Personally I think performance EVs (sorry 12Pack, lol) make perfect road weapons with their instant response and punch. Even my barge of an MX is very hard to drive away from on local backroads. I fully expect an M3P would be more than quick enough for any road use, however crazy you are!

I live literally right next to Silverstone so we see a lot of exotic machines being hooned along the local roads and the MX (with the considerable advantage of local road knowledge) keeps up with anything I've yet seen out there. The other day I had a Porsche GT3 try to show me the way and it made zero progress down the road. It was almost embarrassing catching it and then comfortably keeping up when he put his foot down! To be fair he was driving "fairly" sensibly (like staying below 90 mph on the straights) and not taking any silly risks going into blind corners. Of course an MX is no match for a GT3 around the actual Silverstone track, but the obvious limitations of road use i.e. unknown oncoming traffic, speed limits etc, are a great leveller. The most fun on such roads generally comes from compact, lower powered lightweights with relatively skinny tyres and zero electronic assistance. I still have a classic old 911 in that mould, which is great fun on our local roads, but ultimately slower from A-B than our 7-seater EV SUV A Model 3P would leave it completely for dead, performance car or not!

 

[WannabeOwner]

@Peteski by the by, have you driven an iPace? - just as a point of comparison.