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Social Chat - Short Term TSLA Movements

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TSLA has been the only blessed one where people are extremely confident of leadership as they clearly tell investors what they are gonna do with the $.
Exactly. When Elon Musk comes to the investment community and says, "I've got a great idea that will only cost a few billion", people open their checkbooks. Maybe someday they will be disappointed, but so far everyone who bought (and held) their IPO/Secondary position in a company that Elon has run has made money -- often, lots of it.

Dilution is a funny thing. Wisely invested, new capital increases the future dividends by more than the increase in the stock issuance. Therefore, although there are more shares outstanding, there's more profit expected.

At some point, I wonder when Tesla will issue bonds? Or is their current cost of equity so stupidly low that even corporate bonds seem expensive?
 
I am in the camp that thinks that if the factory plan is sound the capital raise, while dilutive, won't cause the stock to go down materially. The captital raised will be used to build a factory that will make shareholders a lot of money. TSLA stockholders understand and expect this. It would be worse if they weren't talking about capacity plans.
 
I am in the camp that thinks that if the factory plan is sound the capital raise, while dilutive, won't cause the stock to go down materially. The captital raised will be used to build a factory that will make shareholders a lot of money. TSLA stockholders understand and expect this. It would be worse if they weren't talking about capacity plans.

I am actually hoping that wall street/non TMC investors do cause an initial dip with the potential Gigafactory dilution. From an investment standpoint it would appear to be an excellent opportunity for all of us to add stock, LEAPS or end of March calls as I feel that is about the time when everyone outside the forum will realize that the capital raise was actually a positive catalyst.
 
Short Term TSLA Investor Social Chat

Sold a weekly put credit spread when stock at 211. Sold Feb14 210 put for $4.18 and bought Feb14 205 put for $2.28 for credit of $1.90. Max gain $1.90, max pain $3.10. Expires tomorrow.

An update on my post-earnings bull put spread. I ended up closing out the 210 puts about 3 minutes prior to closing for $0.70. So, I ended up making $1.20 on this play (out of max gain $1.90 and max pain of $3.10). Overall it was a successful trade although when I sold the spread (stock was at $211) I thought the stock would trend higher but it didn't and ended up getting stuck around $210.

Yesterday I also sold a put credit spread for next week. Sold Feb28 200 puts for $2.81 and bought Feb28 197.5 puts for $2.21 for credit of $0.60. Max gain is $0.60 and max pain is $1.90.
 
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An update on my post-earnings bull put spread. I ended up closing out the 210 puts about 3 minutes prior to closing for $0.70. So, I ended up making $1.20 on this play (out of max gain $1.90 and max pain of $3.10). Overall it was a successful trade although when I sold the spread (stock was at $211) I thought the stock would trend higher but it didn't and ended up getting stuck around $210.

Yesterday I also sold a put credit spread for next week. Sold Feb28 200 puts for $2.81 and bought Feb28 197.5 puts for $2.21 for credit of $0.60. Max gain is $0.60 and max pain is $1.80.

I must say DaveT, you recent posts have piqued my curiosity about the idea of getting into spreads. Would you mind telling us if you are moving significant dollars in these plays, or just a few contracts at a time?
 
An update on my post-earnings bull put spread. I ended up closing out the 210 puts about 3 minutes prior to closing for $0.70. So, I ended up making $1.20 on this play (out of max gain $1.90 and max pain of $3.10). Overall it was a successful trade although when I sold the spread (stock was at $211) I thought the stock would trend higher but it didn't and ended up getting stuck around $210.

Yesterday I also sold a put credit spread for next week. Sold Feb28 200 puts for $2.81 and bought Feb28 197.5 puts for $2.21 for credit of $0.60. Max gain is $0.60 and max pain is $1.80.
What's the reason you use bull put spread instead of bull call spread? I know one is credit and other is debit transaction. But they make or loose about same amount of money in the end. Bull put spread will tie up your buying power even it's credit transaction.
 
Because you win when the stock goes up, stays the same or drops a bit. With a bull call spread, you only win if the stock goes up.

I had a bull put spread this week for 200/190 that netted $430 per contract, and have one for this coming week at 205/195 that maxes at $230 per contract with max pain at $670. I like these spreads too when you feel the stock will not go down but aren't sure if it will go up. Recent trend for TSLA is to go up and then consolidate for awhile.
 
Because you win when the stock goes up, stays the same or drops a bit. With a bull call spread, you only win if the stock goes up.
That depends in both cases where you place the strikes.
If you buy the following bull call spread
buy Feb28 $200 call for 12
sell Feb28 $210 call for 6
for a net debit of 6 and the stock doesnt't move and ends at $210 the bcs ends at $10 for a 66% gain.

One advantage of bull put spreads is, that you you don't have to close them.
In the above example of a bcs you have to sell the $200 call if the stock ends around $210.

In this example of a bull put spread:
sell Feb28 $210 put for 6.50
buy Feb28 $200 put for 2.70
for a net credit of 3.80.
Because you already received the 3.80 upfront and the stock didn't move and ends at $210 you don't have to do anything, you can just let them both expire worthless.

But I assume that can't be the only reason, why DaveT used BPS instead of BCS. Care to elaborate a bit on your reasoning, Dave?
 
One strategy I use is to also write covered calls when the IV is high, near earnings for example.
You have the time decay working for you, as well as the high IV dropping quickly...

Worst case scenario, my shares are called away (at a nice profit already), best case scenario, I pocket the premium (Which just happened on Feb 22 $215 calls I sold). These also don't have to be sold, you can just let them expire.

Of course it's wise to not sell more contracts than you have shares to back the calls up with, in case you are caught.
With the volatility of TSLA, even if shares are called away, most likely you'll have an opportunity to buy back in at nearly the same price.
 
Since we are talking spreads, with the options expiry on Friday I just profited from my first delayed construct bull call spread. On January 29th, when the stock was around 175, I bought 10 Feb $175 calls at $12.40 per contract. Two days later on January 31st I sold 10 Feb $185 calls at $12.45 per contract. I was then able to put that money into Jan 15 $250 calls when we dipped back down into the 170's a few days after that. Not too much work and I was easily able to profit $10k with no risk. With all the volatility we are experiencing I really think this type of spread is perfect, especially with LEAPS. All it takes is a few percentage points of movement in the underlying for the LEAPS to move enough to create delayed construct bull call spreads. So far I've been able to create 70 spreads for Jan 15 and I will be aggressively working towards making more this year. I think this strategy will result in a much higher return opposed to just holding LEAPS because you can cycle the same investment over and over again to create an ever increasing number of spreads.

Anyone else pursuing this strategy??
 
@gym7rjm
Sounds interesting. I'm just starting to use something more like @mitch672. I'm holding a large number of j15 and J16 LEAPS for my long term position (rolling up and out as time and price move forward- essentially a leveraged stock replacement). I'm starting to sell OTM calls on price peaks to generate income on downswings. It's a rather safe play. To increase the LEAPS return while staying strong long
 
This is my strategy playbook (still in formation) for playing TSLA weeklies.

Disclaimers: These are my personal opinions and they are still in formation as I’m not an expert on weekly options, so they’ll likely to change. Also, these strategies only apply to weekly options. I’ve purposely left out naked OTM weekly calls/puts since the time-value decay (theta) is so great on these and are probably better suited for the experienced options day trader.

Main strategies for weekly options:
1. If I’m bullish for the week, bull put spread

2. If I think it’s range bound, iron condor

3. If I’m bearish for the week, bear call spread

Rare strategies for weekly options:

4. If I’m super bullish for the week, bull call spread

5. If I’m super bearish for the week, bear put spread

6. If I’m playing a huge positive catalyst event that has just occurred with huge upside for the week, then naked ATM calls (ie., 7-10 days out).

7. If I’m playing a huge negative catalyst event that has just occurred with huge downside for the week, then naked ATM puts (ie., 7-10 days out).

I’ll go a bit more in depth with some of these specific strategies for weekly options.

1. If I’m bullish for the week, bull put spread

Here’s some examples.

Prior to Q4 earnings I was riding March 180 calls (bought when stock was under 135) and Feb14 190 calls (bought when stock was 170). I decided to exit both positions fully the Friday before earnings (when stock was about 200). Then, I wanted to play earnings with some weeklies.

I could have just kept my March 180 and Feb14 190 calls and sold higher strike calls (ie., 220) and went into earnings with a some bull call spreads. However, going into earnings I was bullish but I wasn’t super bullish. So, I decided to do some bull put spreads instead.

The day before earnings, I bought a 195/190 bull put spread (sold 195, bought 190) for a credit of $1.75 (and max pain of $3.25 if stock expired at 190 or lower). The reason I chose this bull put spread (vs a OTM bull call spread) is because I felt like TSLA had a 75% chance of closing the week at 195 or higher. And I thought that there was a decent chance of TSLA closing at 195-210 at the end of the week (vs higher than that), so I didn’t want to take a lot of risk with a OTM bull call spread (ie., 205/210) and naked OTM weekly calls were way too risky with the scenarios I was seeing. The trade expired on Friday (3 days later) and I was able to keep the $1.75 credit.

Post earnings, I wanted to do another weekly play based on my thinking that the earnings was good and we wouldn’t see the stock close on Friday lower than $210. But I was afraid of the stock going higher than $220, so I didn’t want to do an Iron Condor (will explain later). In other words, I was more bullish than neutral. So, I sold a weekly bull put spread 210/205 (sold 210 put, bought 205) for a credit of $1.90 (max pain $3.10) when the stock was at $211 on Thursday. I thought the stock would actually bounce and we would end the week at $215-220, so I thought the 210/205 was fairly safe. The extra safety of margin a bull put spread provides is that if the stock stays stagnant I can still come out on top since I’m benefiting from time-value decay. So, actually the trade turned against my expectations. The stock didn’t end at $215-220 like I expected, rather it ended the week at $209.60. But as long as the stock ended at $208.10 or higher I would still make money on the trade, and that’s what happened.

My wife also did a post-earnings weekly trade and here’s what it looked like. The day after earnings (Thursday) she bought a 205/200 weekly bull put spread (sold 205 put, bought 200 put) for a credit of $1.12 (max pain $3.88). Then she also bought a bear call weekly spread 225.50/225 (sold 222.5 calls, and bought 225 calls) for a credit of $.20. So, she was counting on the stock to remain within $204-223 range. This set up an iron condor where her max profit was $1.32 (already received up front) and her max pain was $3.68. The stock closed at $209.60 allowing her to keep the full credit.

That depends in both cases where you place the strikes.
If you buy the following bull call spread
buy Feb28 $200 call for 12
sell Feb28 $210 call for 6
for a net debit of 6 and the stock doesnt't move and ends at $210 the bcs ends at $10 for a 66% gain.

One advantage of bull put spreads is, that you you don't have to close them.
In the above example of a bcs you have to sell the $200 call if the stock ends around $210.

In this example of a bull put spread:
sell Feb28 $210 put for 6.50
buy Feb28 $200 put for 2.70
for a net credit of 3.80.
Because you already received the 3.80 upfront and the stock didn't move and ends at $210 you don't have to do anything, you can just let them both expire worthless.

But I assume that can't be the only reason, why DaveT used BPS instead of BCS. Care to elaborate a bit on your reasoning, Dave?

The reason why I’m choosing to use a bull put spread (vs a ITM bull call spread like you illustrated) is because the trades are actually almost identical in terms of max profit and max gain (ie., if you can sell the Feb28 210/205 bull put spread for $4 credit, then max pain is $6. That would be the same as the 210/200 bull call spread example you shared). However, in a bull call spread you need to fork over the max pain amount at the beginning of the trade (ie., in the bull call spread example that would be $6 debit) and then you would wait to be able to get that money back and up to $4 more for max profit. This poses some challenges with cash flow since you’re $6 cash is tied up and when you close the BCS you’ll need to wait for the money to clear to be able to trade with that money again. So, you couldn’t close the spread on friday and on the same day use that money to buy another spread. But with the bull put spread, you get the max profit (ie., $4 up front) and only pay the pain (up to $6 net) if the losses are realized. So, if the trade works out and you retain your initial credit, then you can immediately execute another trade (since you’re money doesn’t need to clear like in the case of the bull call spread).

I must say DaveT, you recent posts have piqued my curiosity about the idea of getting into spreads. Would you mind telling us if you are moving significant dollars in these plays, or just a few contracts at a time?

I’m still relatively new to weekly credit spreads, so I’m taking it slow and doing a relatively small amount for me (I’d rather not share the exact amount, but it’s more than a few contracts at a time). For someone new to this, I would suggest reading up on weekly spreads, iron condors, income plays, etc and getting some training first. Then, starting out with minimal risk and building up from there. For example, start out with the smallest trades possible and build from there. Weekly credit spreads still carry a lot of risk but they’re definitely lower risk than naked weekly OTM calls/puts or even weekly OTM bull/bear spreads.

I was going to go into the other weekly strategies in my current playbook, but this post is already very long so I’ll just stop here. And for the most part, I'm currently more theory than experience in regards to trading weeklies. But I'm sharing so that others can benefit from my learning experience and so we can crowdsource experiences/lessons to speed up each other's learning experiences.
 
Short Term TSLA Investor Social Chat

Thanks DaveT - very informative. Quick questions on your bull put spreads: for these TSLA trades, why choose a strike price difference of 5 vs. 10? With 10, you can achieve a similar a higher gain with a lower break even price and also fewer contracts to achieve the gain you want, which lowers commission fees. The max pain price is also lowered. The trade-off is the worse ratio of gain to pain, but if your conviction is bullish, it seems like the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
 
I forgot to share my reasoning for selling a 200/197.50 bull put spread for next week (Feb28 expiry).

I’m kind of neutral going into next week. I think there’s possibility of TSLA dropping to under $200 if the gigafactory isn’t presented well. But if the gigafactory is presented well (which I think it will be) I think the stock holds at least $200. If I was more bullish I might have sold a higher strike bull put spread (ie., 205/200 or even 210/205), but the gigafactory announcement present some unknown risks imo so I’d like to be cautious. Early in the week, I also might look to sell a bear call spread (ie., sell Feb28 200 calls and buy Feb28 225.50 calls) since dilution talk might make it difficult to close above $220, so the combined trades would form an iron condor with a lower max pain point and a slightly higher max profit.

All of this is speculation. :)
Also, I hope no one follows me into these trades as I'd hate for people to lose money when it doesn't work out. Rather, I think it'd be helpful if folks understood these types of trades and we could help grow our knowledge, so when people make their own trading decisions they're better informed.
 
Short Term TSLA Investor Social Chat

Thanks DaveT - very informative. Quick questions on your bull put spreads: for these TSLA trades, why choose a strike price difference of 5 vs. 10? With 10, you can achieve a similar a higher gain with a lower break even price and also fewer contracts to achieve the gain you want, which lowers commission fees. The max pain price is also lowered. The trade-off is the worse ratio of gain to pain, but if your conviction is bullish, it seems like the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I've been experimenting with various strike price differences when I place my order. But 10 strike difference is quite wide. So, if we're looking at 210/200 Feb28 bull put spread you can probably get around $4 in credit . But if I sell a 207.5/202.5 Feb28 bull put spread, I might get about $2 credit. I would prefer the 207.5/202.5 bull put spread because my max profit point is lower at 207.5 (vs 210) and I could just buy double the contracts.

Regarding commissions, I'd advise making sure you are in a brokerage that has low/reasonable options fees so it's not that big of a factor in your decisions.
 
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