Solar Panels or Solar Roof?

[SittingMoose]

I've been struggling with this for months. I'm absolutely an over analyzer and have been driving my wife crazy by waffling back and forth on the two options below:

Context:

• Just bought a house, roof is in bad shape, installing solar in Southern California.
• South face roof with a slope that's absolutely perfect for solar - albeit with solar panels that everyone would see (not a big deal to me).
• The roof itself is made out of concrete tiles that are actually in great shape, but the underlining felt paper is completely shot. However, the concrete tiles themselves are kinda ugly and are somewhat dirty. You can't really tell from seeing the house, and fortunately the really ugly tiles are in areas that aren't really visible to people.
• My preferences for solar: Cost, durability, and reliability are most important. Value and aesthetics are tied (ranked in that order).
• Currently own a Model 3 and will be buying a Model Y or 3 in the next year or two. We've had the luxury of not paying for electricity for the past few years so we're estimating our non-inclusive of EV charging bill to be around $80 per mo. With one EV charging we estimate $130-ish.
• Our main service panel must be upgraded (Federal electric panel that apparently is pretty dangerous because it doesn't trip properly, causing fires).
• Fascia boards (the wood trim surrounding the gutters) needs to be replaced, but not desperately so.

Options (Prices non-inclusive of fascia board, main service panel upgrade, or other unforeseen costs):

1. Tesla solar: 6.1KW, $12,186 + $10,500 re-roof = $22,700, with solar panels going on the front of the roof where everyone can see them (doesn't really bother us). We live in a neighborhood where everyone has solar. We would combine this with a separate roofer proposal who's offering to "lift and relay" (aka keep our original concrete tiles and just replace the felt paper underneath).
   • Pros: Cheaper, faster install (est. August)
   • Cons: Keep ugly tiles, potential solar panel ugliness because panels would be in front for everyone to see (even if low profile), not as big of a system as solar roof.
2. Solar roof: 6.7KW, $30,420. They mentioned that they will comp any small repairs needed to be done. They estimate ballpark figure of a few hundred bucks for fascia board replacement. Unfortunately, my installation date is beginning of October (confirmed). They did say that they could move that up if they hire solar roofers fast enough.
   • Pros: Obviously way more beautiful, bigger system, single contractor if anything goes faulty
   • Cons: More expensive, delayed installation means I miss out on summer savings, track record of Tesla energy response team isn't great, and concerned about being early adopter for this product.

As you can tell, I'm torn between the two options. Logic suggests going with Tesla solar, but still trying to see if I'm missing anything. Need to make a decision soon as the roofer will be ready to start work on Friday. Thank you!

 

[jjrandorin]

I've been struggling with this for months. I'm absolutely an over analyzer and have been driving my wife crazy by waffling back and forth on the two options below:

Context:

• Just bought a house, roof is in bad shape, installing solar in Southern California.
• South face roof with a slope that's absolutely perfect for solar - albeit with solar panels that everyone would see (not a big deal to me).
• The roof itself is made out of concrete tiles that are actually in great shape, but the underlining felt paper is completely shot. However, the concrete tiles themselves are kinda ugly and are somewhat dirty. You can't really tell from seeing the house, and fortunately the really ugly tiles are in areas that aren't really visible to people.
• My preferences for solar: Cost, durability, and reliability are most important. Value and aesthetics are tied (ranked in that order).
• Currently own a Model 3 and will be buying a Model Y or 3 in the next year or two. We've had the luxury of not paying for electricity for the past few years so we're estimating our non-inclusive of EV charging bill to be around $80 per mo. With one EV charging we estimate $130-ish.
• Our main service panel must be upgraded (Federal electric panel that apparently is pretty dangerous because it doesn't trip properly, causing fires).
• Fascia boards (the wood trim surrounding the gutters) needs to be replaced, but not desperately so.

Options (Prices non-inclusive of fascia board, main service panel upgrade, or other unforeseen costs):

1. Tesla solar: 6.1KW, $12,186 + $10,500 re-roof = $22,700, with solar panels going on the front of the roof where everyone can see them (doesn't really bother us). We live in a neighborhood where everyone has solar. We would combine this with a separate roofer proposal who's offering to "lift and relay" (aka keep our original concrete tiles and just replace the felt paper underneath).
   • Pros: Cheaper, faster install (est. August)
   • Cons: Keep ugly tiles, potential solar panel ugliness because panels would be in front for everyone to see (even if low profile), not as big of a system as solar roof.
2. Solar roof: 6.7KW, $30,420. They mentioned that they will comp any small repairs needed to be done. They estimate ballpark figure of a few hundred bucks for fascia board replacement. Unfortunately, my installation date is beginning of October (confirmed). They did say that they could move that up if they hire solar roofers fast enough.
   • Pros: Obviously way more beautiful, bigger system, single contractor if anything goes faulty
   • Cons: More expensive, delayed installation means I miss out on summer savings, track record of Tesla energy response team isn't great, and concerned about being early adopter for this product.

As you can tell, I'm torn between the two options. Logic suggests going with Tesla solar, but still trying to see if I'm missing anything. Need to make a decision soon as the roofer will be ready to start work on Friday. Thank you!

If you have enough tax liability to take the tax credit, wouldnt the first option only give you 26% of 12,186 (regular roof repairs are not part of the tax credit for energy efficiency) for a total of 19,531,64, while the solar roof option would be eligible for the tax rebate on the 30,420 , giving a cost of 22,510.80?

So 19,530 vs 22, 510, or a 3k effective difference instead of a 8k difference. Just reading your post, it looks to me like the cliff notes version is:

"I really like the solar roof, but am not sure its worth the additional money for similar production". Well, the difference in money is not that large, actually, and since you dont like the existing roof look anyway, and like the look of the solar roof, it sounds like if you can stomach the 3k actual difference in net cost to you (provided you have enough tax liability to take the credit), solar roof is what you really want.

 

[Vines]

If aesthetics are at all important, then I'd go with Solar Glass. 100% new roof and 0.6 kW more for just under $8k.

Slam dunk imho @ $4 per watt.

 

[SittingMoose]

If you have enough tax liability to take the tax credit, wouldnt the first option only give you 26% of 12,186 (regular roof repairs are not part of the tax credit for energy efficiency) for a total of 19,531,64, while the solar roof option would be eligible for the tax rebate on the 30,420 , giving a cost of 22,510.80?

So 19,530 vs 22, 510, or a 3k effective difference instead of a 8k difference. Just reading your post, it looks to me like the cliff notes version is:

"I really like the solar roof, but am not sure its worth the additional money for similar production". Well, the difference in money is not that large, actually, and since you dont like the existing roof look anyway, and like the look of the solar roof, it sounds like if you can stomach the 3k actual difference in net cost to you (provided you have enough tax liability to take the credit), solar roof is what you really want.

Really great point, but I'm 95% certain that you can only claim the net difference between a roof repair and the solar roof for the tax credit. So in this example I couldn't claim the full $30K and discount that by 26% on my taxes. I could only do $30K - $10.5K (cost of re-roof) = $19.5K for tax credit.

That makes it a little over $5K difference. Just enough to make me think twice and reconsider solar roof.

I would love to be wrong about that though! I'm also wondering if there are any other external benefits of the solar roof that I might not be aware of (better cooling capabilities, etc.).

 

[Southpasfan]

Congratulations on living in some part of Southern California with a electric bill of $80. I am not sure how you get there when its around $.20 per kwh. Thats like 13kwh per day, less than one per hour.

 

[SittingMoose]

Congratulations on living in some part of Southern California with a electric bill of $80. I am not sure how you get there when its around $.20 per kwh. Thats like 13kwh per day, less than one per hour.

Haha I actually wasn't paying electricity in my last apartment so that's an estimate. We also live in an area where we don't need A/C and we're obsessive about conserving energy. I might still be pretty off though. Either way, I tried to over-order on solar just in the (high) likelihood that I'm wrong...

 

[jjrandorin]

Really great point, but I'm 95% certain that you can only claim the net difference between a roof repair and the solar roof for the tax credit. So in this example I couldn't claim the full $30K and discount that by 26% on my taxes. I could only do $30K - $10.5K (cost of re-roof) = $19.5K for tax credit.

That makes it a little over $5K difference. Just enough to make me think twice and reconsider solar roof.

I would love to be wrong about that though! I'm also wondering if there are any other external benefits of the solar roof that I might not be aware of (better cooling capabilities, etc.).

I guess that would depend on how you look at it? I dont know but suppose that you didnt know you needed a new roof, and just got a quote for, and paid for, solar glass because you wanted it for the energy vs a new roof. Unless the tesla invoice breaks it down as to what is "repair" or not, how would you know what to subtract?

Someone who recently had it installed like @jboy210 or @wjgjr would need to say if the invoice breaks down repairs vs install..... I am certainly no expert at this aspect, and dont pretend to be, but am genuinely curious how that would break down if you just got the solar glass quote without the competing quote... and the invoice doesnt break down "repair" vs install.

 

[SittingMoose]

I guess that would depend on how you look at it? I dont know but suppose that you didnt know you needed a new roof, and just got a quote for, and paid for, solar glass because you wanted it for the energy vs a new roof. Unless the tesla invoice breaks it down as to what is "repair" or not, how would you know what to subtract?

Someone who recently had it installed like @jboy210 or @wjgjr would need to say if the invoice breaks down repairs vs install..... I am certainly no expert at this aspect, and dont pretend to be, but am genuinely curious how that would break down if you just got the solar glass quote without the competing quote... and the invoice doesnt break down "repair" vs install.

Yeah good point. Other issue is that Tesla puts it on their web page what they think the net price is after. Unfortunately the solar tax credit law is so vague that it's enticing to interpret it to include that. However, I checked with a CPA who suggested I take the approach of deducting the normal cost of a roof and applying the tax credit to that.

@jboy210 or @wjgjr would love your input!

 

[wjgjr]

Really great point, but I'm 95% certain that you can only claim the net difference between a roof repair and the solar roof for the tax credit. So in this example I couldn't claim the full $30K and discount that by 26% on my taxes. I could only do $30K - $10.5K (cost of re-roof) = $19.5K for tax credit.

That makes it a little over $5K difference. Just enough to make me think twice and reconsider solar roof.

I would love to be wrong about that though! I'm also wondering if there are any other external benefits of the solar roof that I might not be aware of (better cooling capabilities, etc.).

With the solar roof, you can claim a credit on the portion of the new roof attributable to solar. So you would not use the $10.5k number but would likely rely on the numbers Tesla provides (they explicitly break out the portion they believe is eligible for the ITC - with the warning that it is not tax advice.) For us, about 70% of the solar install cost, excluding pre-construction (and maybe 60% including pre-construction costs) was labeled as ITC-eligible.

As to your general concerns, I personally prefer the solar roof look, so for me that would be worth something. In terms of actual numbers, definitely look at after-tax costs, and also consider the value of a new roof vs. a repaired roof which might not have the same lifetime or guarantees. When noting the larger size of the solar roof vs panels, also look at the annual output numbers as that better accounts for any difference in production due to the location of the tiles/panels.

As far as install dates, it does lose you some money, but perhaps not as much as you might expect - after install, you will need to go through inspections and get PTO, all of which might mean the lost months could actually be closer to the winter solstice.

 

[totoro722]

Where in SoCal do you live that does not need air conditioning? I don’t know of anyplace there that does not at least a few times each year get really hot!

 

[SittingMoose]

With the solar roof, you can claim a credit on the portion of the new roof attributable to solar. So you would not use the $10.5k number but would likely rely on the numbers Tesla provides (they explicitly break out the portion they believe is eligible for the ITC - with the warning that it is not tax advice.) For us, about 70% of the solar install cost, excluding pre-construction (and maybe 60% including pre-construction costs) was labeled as ITC-eligible.

As to your general concerns, I personally prefer the solar roof look, so for me that would be worth something. In terms of actual numbers, definitely look at after-tax costs, and also consider the value of a new roof vs. a repaired roof which might not have the same lifetime or guarantees. When noting the larger size of the solar roof vs panels, also look at the annual output numbers as that better accounts for any difference in production due to the location of the tiles/panels.

As far as install dates, it does lose you some money, but perhaps not as much as you might expect - after install, you will need to go through inspections and get PTO, all of which might mean the lost months could actually be closer to the winter solstice.

Interesting...70% is materially higher. Using my $10.5k estimate, that's about 65% of the cost. Mind if I ask how big your system was (kw) relative to the sq. ft of your roof?

 

[SittingMoose]

Where in SoCal do you live that does not need air conditioning? I don’t know of anyplace there that does not at least a few times each year get really hot!

San Diego! Yeah we still need AC here lol...so far we've gotten lucky...our area seems to have a nice constant breeze so it hasn't gotten too warm, but we've only been here for about a month.

 

[jboy210]

We were set to install a new tile roof and solar panels last fall when they announced the SolarGlass roof. My wife had wanted one since the first announcement. Within 2 weeks we had our order in. When they sent their proposal we could not believe the prices. The roof part was cheaper than the tile roof plus solar. We added 2 PowerWalls because of the PSPS. The install started in March and was completed in April even with a 2 week shutdown for Covid. We love the end result. One of the best decisions we ever made.

Right now we are waiting for final inspection and PTO so we can turn it on full time. But in quick testing burst it has been impressive. Generated over 10 kW (12+ Kw rating) in April and May. It will fill the PW by 12:30 or so.

But, best of all it looks like a cool black glass roof. We get compliments daily from people passing by.

Here is a document with pictures on the install. Need to get this up to Youtube where I can add the drone videos and photos.

PS. Specific to roof repairs they did quite a bit on ours. This include extending parts of the roof to straighten out this weird kink added during one of the remodels. No extra charge, but we paid more than you will because the first 100 got a lot of hands on treatment and things like new gutters, etc.

 

[wjgjr]

Interesting...70% is materially higher. Using my $10.5k estimate, that's about 65% of the cost. Mind if I ask how big your system was (kw) relative to the sq. ft of your roof?

8.1858 kW, on a 1572.670807 sq. ft. roof (and yes, for some absurd reason, Tesla included all those decimal points on my agreement, which amuses me.) We did have solar installed on both sides (north and south) so it is a decent portion of the roof.

Tesla should be able to provide you the numbers - before we signed everything, they gave us a breakdown. There is a heading, "Solar Roof", and it has two detail lines - one for the producing portion and one for the non-producing portion. The producing portion has a footnote indicating it is the portion potentially eligible for the credit (again, with their disclaimer about it not being tax advice.)

 

[SittingMoose]

We were set to install a new tile roof and solar panels last fall when they announced the SolarGlass roof. My wife had wanted one since the first announcement. Within 2 weeks we had our order in. When they sent their proposal we could not believe the prices. The roof part was cheaper than the tile roof plus solar. We added 2 PowerWalls because of the PSPS. The install started in March and was completed in April even with a 2 week shutdown for Covid. We love the end result. One of the best decisions we ever made.

Right now we are waiting for final inspection and PTO so we can turn it on full time. But in quick testing burst it has been impressive. Generated over 10 kW (12+ Kw rating) in April and May. It will fill the PW by 12:30 or so.

But, best of all it looks like a cool black glass roof. We get compliments daily from people passing by.

Here is a document with pictures on the install. Need to get this up to Youtube where I can add the drone videos and photos.

PS. Specific to roof repairs they did quite a bit on ours. This include extending parts of the roof to straighten out this weird kink added during one of the remodels. No extra charge, but we paid more than you will because the first 100 got a lot of hands on treatment and things like new gutters, etc.

Thanks this is super helpful. If you don't mind me asking, what % of the payment did you claim for taxes?

 

[SittingMoose]

8.1858 kW, on a 1572.670807 sq. ft. roof (and yes, for some absurd reason, Tesla included all those decimal points on my agreement, which amuses me.) We did have solar installed on both sides (north and south) so it is a decent portion of the roof.

Tesla should be able to provide you the numbers - before we signed everything, they gave us a breakdown. There is a heading, "Solar Roof", and it has two detail lines - one for the producing portion and one for the non-producing portion. The producing portion has a footnote indicating it is the portion potentially eligible for the credit (again, with their disclaimer about it not being tax advice.)

Thanks, I see it on the agreement now that you mention it. It's right around my estimate of 65% claim.

 

[jboy210]

Thanks this is super helpful. If you don't mind me asking, what % of the payment did you claim for taxes?

We have not done taxes for it. It was installed this year. But pretty sure we will just use the numbers Tesla has on their quote.

 

[wjgjr]

We have not done taxes for it. It was installed this year. But pretty sure we will just use the numbers Tesla has on their quote.

That is what we plan to do as well. While there are some possible ambiguities on exactly what can be claimed that conceivably could allow one to claim a little bit more, it seems like the Tesla numbers are a reasonable and safe interpretation - at least unless one consults with a CPA/tax adviser versed in these issues.

 

[jboy210]

That is what we plan to do as well. While there are some possible ambiguities on exactly what can be claimed that conceivably could allow one to claim a little bit more, it seems like the Tesla numbers are a reasonable and safe interpretation - at least unless one consults with a CPA/tax adviser versed in these issues.

Unfortunately I am almost certain our accountant is NOT versed in solar credits.

 

[SittingMoose]

Unfortunately I am almost certain our accountant is NOT versed in solar credits.

This is what our CPA said:

"There is guidance that the cost over and above a "normal" roof cost would qualify for the credit. Thus, if a "normal" roof would cost $10K and the Tesla roof is $30K, the qualify costs would be $20K, or a credit of $5,200 if completed in 2020. The credit drops to 22% in 2021."