Solar Roof - Anyone have Tesla Call During Tear Off to Re-Negotiate Costs?

[MXDogCrate]

Hi Everyone...

I should probably have my install on a single thread. Will try to consolidate later.

The crew is here ripping off our roof (not on schedule) and my new rep since August, who has never reached out to us before today is asking for an additional ($2,500 to $3,000) because of more tear off than anticipated.

Our Tesla inspector came in February, saw our roof, poked around with a knife deep in the attic, so I’m a bit surprised.

He says the total increase of cost from the sub is $5,000, but they’re splitting the cost with us.

Any thoughts?

 

[wjgjr]

That seems pretty questionable to me, particularly given somebody from Tesla already performed a site visit, since I feel like most of these surprises come where Tesla did not come out.

In any case, if your contract says they will "tear off existing roof" or similar, it seems like that is exactly what they should do, for the already agreed-upon price. At the very least, they owe you an explanation as to what is materially different from February to cause such a change. They should have assessed the requirements at the time and bid that out to their sub-contractors. If their sub-contractor wants more money to do the work, that is between Tesla and the sub.

 

[MXDogCrate]

Thanks, wjgjr. Agreed!

 

[holeydonut]

From a legal perspective I think you'll need to read your contract and look for the two clauses that are typically labeled "pre-existing conditions" or "changed conditions". These clauses usually provide language on what happens if there are "unforeseen structural defects or undiscovered pre-existing conditions with your property". Tesla (and by proxy their sub-contractor) would argue that there's an unforeseen issue or challenging environment that was only discovered once work started.

From a customer experience perspective, I agree with @wjgjr that this sounds like an issue between Tesla and their subcontractor. If the crew is taking more time than Tesla thought, then it should be on Tesla to remedy the situation. But looking at the pictures in your other thread, it looks like the crew is doing something waaayyy more invasive than just removing some asphalt shingles and underlayment.

It's like you had no sheathing at all (or the roofers are removing the sheathing layer). Is removing the sheath normal for a Tesla Roof? I can't tell the type of tiles you have, but I'm amazed at the amount of wooden debris being torn up. From one of your pictures in the other thread It looks like your roof deck is made out of shiplap haha they're just going to town ripping it all out. I can see why the costs are going up.

Here's a nice staged picture of what it normally looks like to scrape off shingles and underlayment. Maybe the Tesla roof needs that sheath gone too? I feel like this is something they should discuss with you before the installation...

 

[wjgjr]

From a legal perspective I think you'll need to read your contract and look for the two clauses that are typically labeled "pre-existing conditions" or "changed conditions". These clauses usually provide language on what happens if there are "unforeseen structural defects or undiscovered pre-existing conditions with your property". Tesla (and by proxy their sub-contractor) would argue that there's an unforeseen issue or challenging environment that was only discovered once work started.

From a customer experience perspective, I agree with @wjgjr that this sounds like an issue between Tesla and their subcontractor. If the crew is taking more time than Tesla thought, then it should be on Tesla to remedy the situation. But looking at the pictures in your other thread, it looks like the crew is doing something waaayyy more invasive than just removing some asphalt shingles and underlayment.

It's like you had no sheathing at all (or the roofers are removing the sheathing layer). Is removing the sheath normal for a Tesla Roof? I can't tell the type of tiles you have, but I'm amazed at the amount of wooden debris being torn up. From one of your pictures in the other thread It looks like your roof deck is made out of shiplap haha they're just going to town ripping it all out. I can see why the costs are going up.

Here's a nice staged picture of what it normally looks like to scrape off shingles and underlayment. Maybe the Tesla roof needs that sheath gone too? I feel like this is something they should discuss with you before the installation...

It is an interesting issue on the contract, because you are certainly correct that the it likely addresses this (our solar roof contract does specifically mention "unforeseen conditions".) However (and this clause did not come into play for us) is states that Tesla would give us an updated price sheet and, if we rejected it, the agreement would terminate and our deposits refunded (assuming a price increase.) It doesn't seem to really address what to do with work in procress.

For our install, which removed a slate roof, replacing sheathing was definitely part of the process, though they did not plan to replace the entire deck, just as needed. However, it was factored into the costs - there was a line item for "Roof Deck Replacement". So, it is something Tesla certainly could have anticipated, which to me gets back to the idea that at a minimum Tesla owes a detailed explanation of what changed since February (or, I suppose, how it is that a professional who came out to inspect would have reasonably been unable to identify the issue that came up.)

 

[bgrynn1873]

Hmm same thing is happening to me they are wanting more money once crew arrives. But I am not doing the roof just solar panels.

 

[holeydonut]

You know, I'm kind of glad Tesla was up front with me to hit me with all the nickel and dimey stuff and actually backed out of installing solar on my roof because it'd be too hard.

I feel like this tactic undercutting on the initial quote and then asking for more money later is really shady even if it is "legal" due to all the fine print. Tesla has a bunch of lawyers, so it'll be interesting to see if there's enough traction pushing the other way from the FTC to help customers or pressure from local AG offices.

Granted some people get their solar installed for super-cheap and it's all roses for those use cases. But if it goes sideways; it's a shitty experience. I'm guessing Musk doesn't care about the sideways cases.

 

[jboy210]

From a legal perspective I think you'll need to read your contract and look for the two clauses that are typically labeled "pre-existing conditions" or "changed conditions". These clauses usually provide language on what happens if there are "unforeseen structural defects or undiscovered pre-existing conditions with your property". Tesla (and by proxy their sub-contractor) would argue that there's an unforeseen issue or challenging environment that was only discovered once work started.

From a customer experience perspective, I agree with @wjgjr that this sounds like an issue between Tesla and their subcontractor. If the crew is taking more time than Tesla thought, then it should be on Tesla to remedy the situation. But looking at the pictures in your other thread, it looks like the crew is doing something waaayyy more invasive than just removing some asphalt shingles and underlayment.

It's like you had no sheathing at all (or the roofers are removing the sheathing layer). Is removing the sheath normal for a Tesla Roof? I can't tell the type of tiles you have, but I'm amazed at the amount of wooden debris being torn up. From one of your pictures in the other thread It looks like your roof deck is made out of shiplap haha they're just going to town ripping it all out. I can see why the costs are going up.

Here's a nice staged picture of what it normally looks like to scrape off shingles and underlayment. Maybe the Tesla roof needs that sheath gone too? I feel like this is something they should discuss with you before the installation...

Yes, removing any old sheeting and underlayment in normal for a SolarRoof install.

The solar roof uses a specific underlayment, Firestone Clad-Gard SF-FR or a variant. This is a thick waterproof self-sealing membrane that seals any penetrations created as part of the install. In addition, before they can put the underpayment down, these need to go over every inch of the roof and ensure there are no nail heads, old staples, wood splinters, etc. standing up. They spent almost an entire day pounding on our roof. Thank heaven for everyone in the family having noise-canceling headphones.

This underlayment is a big part of the waterproofing since SolarGlass tiles are not flat against the roof like a shingle. The set about 1/2" or so above the underlayment. This gap allows water to drain and air to move underneath the tiles. The tiles themselves have a set of permanent mounts on one end and clips that connect to the underlying tile's mounts. This ensures consistent spacing horizontally and vertically between rows of tiles and a ridge connection between tiles.

It is a pretty cool system. There are some pictures of this in my install writeup.

 

[MXDogCrate]

First, thanks, everyone for your speedy responses. I was in the process of discussing with our rep and the immediate answers were very helpful. Now that I’ve had a moment to go through emails from March, the invoice includes ~$8k for decking and ~$2k for additional tear off in their quote. Gosh, you really need to be on your toes.

 

[ThomasD]

Whenever I have major work done to my house I always add 10% to the estimate

 

[jboy210]

First, thanks, everyone for your speedy responses. I was in the process of discussing with our rep and the immediate answers were very helpful. Now that I’ve had a moment to go through emails from March, the invoice includes ~$8k for decking and ~$2k for additional tear off in their quote. Gosh, you really need to be on your toes.

We did not have these charges in our contract. There was just one item listed as Pre-Construction for $3,500.

Just curious, did you have wood shingles? I know those require a lot of work because there is often no decking under the wood shingles. Or perhaps the pre-inspection found rotted decking.

 

[wjgjr]

We did not have these charges in our contract. There was just one item listed as Pre-Construction for $3,500.

Just curious, did you have wood shingles? I know those require a lot of work because there is often no decking under the wood shingles. Or perhaps the pre-inspection found rotted decking.

That is interesting - we had line items for "Permitting, Roof Prep and Pre-Construction", "Electrical Upgrades", "Roof Deck Replacement", "Alternative Roofing", and "Gutter Replacement." Electrical and Alternative Roofing were both $0, but were included, so I just assumed they always put those in the "Pre-Construction" section.

 

[holeydonut]

Yes, removing any old sheeting and underlayment in normal for a SolarRoof install.

The solar roof uses a specific underlayment, Firestone Clad-Gard SF-FR or a variant. This is a thick waterproof self-sealing membrane that seals any penetrations created as part of the install. In addition, before they can put the underpayment down, these need to go over every inch of the roof and ensure there are no nail heads, old staples, wood splinters, etc. standing up. They spent almost an entire day pounding on our roof. Thank heaven for everyone in the family having noise-canceling headphones.

This underlayment is a big part of the waterproofing since SolarGlass tiles are not flat against the roof like a shingle. The set about 1/2" or so above the underlayment. This gap allows water to drain and air to move underneath the tiles. The tiles themselves have a set of permanent mounts on one end and clips that connect to the underlying tile's mounts. This ensures consistent spacing horizontally and vertically between rows of tiles and a ridge connection between tiles.

It is a pretty cool system. There are some pictures of this in my install writeup.

I wonder if a solar customer is allowed to see the SOP in detail before signing a contract. What you described is different than what was documented here:

Installation & Timeline

A subcontractor arrives and removes the roof from our house and garage. This process completed in just 2 hours. The crew installs plywood over the existing wood plank sheathing on both roofs. By the afternoon, they are starting to install Firestone underlayment on the roof.

That approach makes more sense to me... that instead of whacking away and removing the old plank/shiplap deck, they just put a new sheath over it then applied that Firestone underlayment.

If you look at those pictures that MXDogCrate posted in his other thread it looks like the crew is spending way more time than expected to do something that seems way more invasive than what was documented in that link. Granted everyone's roof is different and it seems like Tesla had already anticipated a rather hefty cost for MXDogCrate. Now they're requesting even more funds; and I wonder if he'll need to comply or they'll just abandon the roof job.

 

[jboy210]

That is interesting - we had line items for "Permitting, Roof Prep and Pre-Construction", "Electrical Upgrades", "Roof Deck Replacement", "Alternative Roofing", and "Gutter Replacement." Electrical and Alternative Roofing were both $0, but were included, so I just assumed they always put those in the "Pre-Construction" section.

We had the same line items under the preconstruction with $0.00 values, but $3500 total. Sorry I did not go into the details on our quote.

 

[jboy210]

I wonder if a solar customer is allowed to see the SOP in detail before signing a contract. What you described is different than what was documented here:

Installation & Timeline



That approach makes more sense to me... that instead of whacking away and removing the old plank/shiplap deck, they just put a new sheath over it then applied that Firestone underlayment.

If you look at those pictures that MXDogCrate posted in his other thread it looks like the crew is spending way more time than expected to do something that seems way more invasive than what was documented in that link. Granted everyone's roof is different and it seems like Tesla had already anticipated a rather hefty cost for MXDogCrate. Now they're requesting even more funds; and I wonder if he'll need to comply or they'll just abandon the roof job.

That link is one person's write up and was earlier than ours. And in our house they did not remove decking, just spent a day making sure the decking was up to snuff and would not later cause issues. Perhaps ours needed more attention than the other. But either way, they need to make sure the decking is good. Roof Decking to me is like foundation work. Something that is never seen, but if done halfway ends up causing problems. I would rather have them spend extra time and money early to ensure I do not have issues later on.

 

[holeydonut]

That link is one person's write up and was earlier than ours. And in our house they did not remove decking, just spent a day making sure the decking was up to snuff and would not later cause issues. Perhaps ours needed more attention than the other. But either way, they need to make sure the decking is good. Roof Decking to me is like foundation work. Something that is never seen, but if done halfway ends up causing problems. I would rather have them spend extra time and money early to ensure I do not have issues later on.

I think your installation went pretty well. I was responding to MXDogCrate and the pictures of his roof he posted in his other thread. That looks way more invasive than what I'd expect, and I can see why there are surprise costs sneaking up on him now.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/5fffae83-3fbf-4e0d-8c32-5bca7ef7cda0-jpeg.594155/

 

[SMAlset]

I looked at @MXDogCrate ‘s roof photos and I’m use to seeing plywood sheets covering the roof structure under everything, whereas his roof looks like series of horizontal boards. If so I can see why it would be harder to scrape off the old shingles and underlayment and run more in labor.

Not sure why the extra cost came into the picture but I know from our kitchen remodel being a remodel and not new construction our contractor encountered things that weren’t obvious.

 

[MXDogCrate]

Thanks, everyone. As I said above, but maybe not obvious enough, we did have a roughly $10,000 quote on tear off and decking additional to the solar roof.

It was actually pretty expensive compared to quotes from other roofers just to do the tear off and decking, but I just wanted to know where we were on it. Now that I’ve reminded Tesla of this, they agree the cost was included in our quote. So it was surprising to get a call while they were ripping the roof off after a 90 minute inspection.

JBoy210, yes, that is shake! This was the original roof and we are maxed out on layers. That’s what made the cost benefit of the roof so compelling. We really needed a new roof!

Again, thanks very, very much. This group is a godsend.

 

[jboy210]

Thanks, everyone. As I said above, but maybe not obvious enough, we did have a roughly $10,000 quote on tear off and decking additional to the solar roof.

It was actually pretty expensive compared to quotes from other roofers just to do the tear off and decking, but I just wanted to know where we were on it. Now that I’ve reminded Tesla of this, they agree the cost was included in our quote. So it was surprising to get a call while they were ripping the roof off after a 90 minute inspection.

JBoy210, yes, that is shake! This was the original roof and we are maxed out on layers. That’s what made the cost-benefit of the roof so compelling. We really needed a new roof!

Again, thanks very, very much. This group is a godsend.

Thought that was a shake roof. Used to be so common in California when redwoods were treated as scrap trees.

Maybe your insurer will cut your rates with your new fireproof roof!

And I understand the new roof costs. We needed yet again another (3rd roof) installed in 25+ years. Of course, the 10-year old roof we had up there had a 20+ year guarantee, but the manufacturer and installer had long since gone out of business. Worked out for the best we got SolarGlass and love it.

For anyone not familiar with it, below is what a wood shake install looks like. Notice how the shakes are elevated so they can breathe and not rot. All of this structure has to be removed just to get to the point where you can start thinking about putting OSB or strand decking down on your roof trusses. And once the decking is down then the underlayment on top of that, and then the solarglass tiles on top of the underlayment.

Right now, my neighbor is replacing his wood shingle roof with conventional dimensional shingles. It took them two days to get the old roof off. 2 more days the decking cut and rough fitted. 2 more days to do trim and fit the underlayment. Looks like they got one of 5 segments of his roof shingled today. They told his wife and him 5 days total. And today is Day 9. Then sometime next week they will start his new solar panel installation.

 

[holeydonut]

Thanks, everyone. As I said above, but maybe not obvious enough, we did have a roughly $10,000 quote on tear off and decking additional to the solar roof.

It was actually pretty expensive compared to quotes from other roofers just to do the tear off and decking, but I just wanted to know where we were on it. Now that I’ve reminded Tesla of this, they agree the cost was included in our quote. So it was surprising to get a call while they were ripping the roof off after a 90 minute inspection.

JBoy210, yes, that is shake! This was the original roof and we are maxed out on layers. That’s what made the cost benefit of the roof so compelling. We really needed a new roof!

Again, thanks very, very much. This group is a godsend.

Sweet sounds like Tesla has backed off asking you for even more money. Hope they rest of the install goes of well! Post more pics haha.