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SolarCity (SCTY)

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Going off grid is a LOT more expensive for the vast majority of people than purchasing an extra 25-100 KWh of batteries, which for me would only cover 2 very cold & cloudy days. If I were to truly go off grid I would likely need double the solar panels (far more than my annual usage, and larger than my roof) in addition to at least 100 KWh of battery back up. The issue for much of the country is that when you need power the most in the dead of winter, solar production reaches a minimum due to short days and heavy cloud cover. Below is a graph of my solar production for the first 7 months. While I produced more than I used in October and November, in December, January and February I ran a deficit of 1801 KWh. Now I am making more than I need and I am "banking" over 220 KWh/month. By June I should have a credit of nearly 1000 KWh to carry me through the summer as I predict in summer my usage will likely be above production during peak AC loads. The only way I can see getting trough winter is to roughly double my solar array and I do not have that much extra space and if I did that I would end up dumping power during the fall and spring. My connection fee to the grid is $7.21/month. That is relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of batteries and extra panels one would need to fully cover one's needs and be off grid.

Solar.JPG
 
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Going off grid is a LOT more expensive for the vast majority of people than purchasing an extra 25-100 KWh of batteries, which for me would only cover 2 very cold & cloudy days. If I were to truly go off grid I would likely need double the solar panels (far more than my annual usage) in addition to at least 100 KWh of battery back up. The issue for much of the country is that when you need power the most in the dead of winter, solar production reaches a minimum due to short days and heavy cloud cover. Below is a graph of my solar production for the first 6 months. Whiel I produced more than I used in October and November, in December, January and February I ran a deficit of nearly 1500 KWh. Now I am making more than I need and I am "banking" over 200 KWh/month. I predict in summer my usage will likely be above production during peak AC loads. The only way I can see getting trough winter is to roughly double my solar array and I do not have that much extra space and if I did that I would end up dumping power during the fall and spring. My connection fee to the grid is $7.21/month. That is relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of batteries and extra panels one would need to fully cover one's needs.

View attachment 47437

Interesting. There needs to be a way to connect to the grid such that you only use it when you run out and the grid can't detect your connection in any way. So you never provide to the grid (so no net metering) but if you need you use from the grid.
 
HenryF, great discussions at that Solar Summit. Pretty much every issue we talk about here, but probably much more informed! I'm learning a lot sifting through them in my free time.

What I Learned About SolarCity's Business Model by Becoming a Customer (SCTY)


this article should fire up some own vs. lease/ppa, specifically Solarcity pre-paid ppa discussion. Also, the comments are pretty lively and informative as well.
 
This video has a thorough analysis of lease vs own debate in an overall market perspective.

It's from GTM Solar Summit 2014.

Solar Summit 2014: Opportunities and Threats in the Residential Solar Market, Recorded on 4/16/14 GreentechMedia on USTREAM. Conference


Thanks for the vid, great info and I'm checking out others....it seems like when we drill down to the first step in all of this is that people need to get on solar. I'm starting to see it doesn't matter how it's done, buying, leasing, or PPAs. People on here are on one side or the other, but most importantly after watching this video, people inside the industry see that it's going to be multiple ways of getting solar to people.

HenryF, great discussions at that Solar Summit. Pretty much every issue we talk about here, but probably much more informed! I'm learning a lot sifting through them in my free time.

What I Learned About SolarCity's Business Model by Becoming a Customer (SCTY)


this article should fire up some own vs. lease/ppa, specifically Solarcity pre-paid ppa discussion. Also, the comments are pretty lively and informative as well.

Thanks for the article and I didn't know it was Elon's idea for PPAs:
The main reason SolarCity owns its market (its share is equal to its next 14 competitors combined) is its various Power Purchase Agreement plans. I asked my consultant: Who came up with this great idea? She says it came from Elon Musk. I'm sure you've heard of him, he has some pretty cool ideas for batteries, electric cars, and space.
 
An FYI post. a friend of mine works for BOA. They had a presentation from Circuit City a couple days ago he was telling me about. BOA is giving employees incentives to sign up for solar.
During the presentation my friend indicates Solar City indicated they will be charging 'roughly' 0.07 cents/KW hour. They presented as 'lease only' option
 
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HenryF, great discussions at that Solar Summit. Pretty much every issue we talk about here, but probably much more informed! I'm learning a lot sifting through them in my free time.

What I Learned About SolarCity's Business Model by Becoming a Customer (SCTY)


this article should fire up some own vs. lease/ppa, specifically Solarcity pre-paid ppa discussion. Also, the comments are pretty lively and informative as well.

This is just a marketing fluff piece that is most likely orchestrated and paid for by SolarCity. The author doesn't actually own any SCTY (even though he does have positions in TSLA). But more importantly if you actually read the article carefully, by paying attention to the choice of words, you will see that it appears that the author did not sign the PPA with SCTY and he did NOT put the SolarCity system on his roof.

Other notes:

The author uses ~30,000kWh of energy per year, but the SCTY system will only get him 8,000kWh. If you look at the pictures, you can see that the reason is that his semi-southern facing roof is constrained and that is the maximum amount of panels that they can fit (25x250W=6.25kW). In his situation, he needs to go with a SPWR system and can get ~9kW system using X-series panels; and even about 8.3kW using older E-series panels. And you will get more production per nameplate capacity from SPWR as well. Where cheaper Chinese panels might do 1.4kWh (for some hyptothetical geographic area) per year per stated Watt, a SPWR panel might do 1.5kWh per year per stated Watt. And that spread gets a lot wider with degradation over time.

I would not be surprised to find out that this guy actually went with a SPWR system himself, because it would make a lot more sense in his case. But, I digress...

He recommends the pre-paid lease, and coincidentally it is the option that benefits SolarCity the most financially since they don't have to raise more capital, debt, or sign loan agreements with banks.

He says that the pre-paid lease is more beneficial then buying, because HE IS ONLY COMPARING THE BUY PRICE THAT SCTY OFFERED HIM! This just proves my point that SCTY will price the buy price such that it is not the best option to buy and makes the leases/PPA's look more attractive. SCTY is offering him roughly $4/W, when a local installer can probably do the exact same system for about $2.70/W.

Some of his numbers don't add up either, e.g. he says that the buy price is $15k after $9k federal credit. But $9k out of $24k is 37.5% and not 30%. So I assume that he lives in an area that has a $2k rebate for such system and then he gets 30% on remainder or roughly $7k in tax credit.

Now lets do the math using a local installer at $2.70/W:

6.25kW*$2.70 = $16,875
Subtract $2k rebate (these are most always done using system size and not cost) = $14,875
Tax Credit = 30% * $14,875 = ~4,500

So you can buy the exact same system for $10k or you can sign a 20-year pre-paid lease for $10k; both upfront payments.

When you buy the system, you have a life expectancy of 30 - 35 years (quoting Lyndon rive here) or you can lease the system for the same price for only 20 years.

I think that it is a pretty easy decision...

Still not impressed with this blatant SolarCity marketing add by Motley Fool.
 
Interesting. There needs to be a way to connect to the grid such that you only use it when you run out and the grid can't detect your connection in any way. So you never provide to the grid (so no net metering) but if you need you use from the grid.
S

So what do I do this time of year? As I have been able to "bank" 550 KWh from my Feb 17th low. That is a a lot of battery capacity of I were to store it all.
 
S

So what do I do this time of year? As I have been able to "bank" 550 KWh from my Feb 17th low. That is a a lot of battery capacity of I were to store it all.

Thats what solarcity's aiming to help customers do in the future... Sell excess to the utilities at To-be-determined "retail" rate, as well as, buy energy energy from other local PV storage owners/leaseesfor the cheapest rate... It will be the new net metering for post/reduced subsidy future... I think this is what CFO Bob Kelly was referring to when he said Solarcity "4.0" as being the evolutionary end state...
 
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Going off grid is a LOT more expensive for the vast majority of people than purchasing an extra 25-100 KWh of batteries, which for me would only cover 2 very cold & cloudy days. If I were to truly go off grid I would likely need double the solar panels (far more than my annual usage, and larger than my roof) in addition to at least 100 KWh of battery back up. The issue for much of the country is that when you need power the most in the dead of winter, solar production reaches a minimum due to short days and heavy cloud cover. Below is a graph of my solar production for the first 7 months. While I produced more than I used in October and November, in December, January and February I ran a deficit of 1801 KWh. Now I am making more than I need and I am "banking" over 220 KWh/month. By June I should have a credit of nearly 1000 KWh to carry me through the summer as I predict in summer my usage will likely be above production during peak AC loads. The only way I can see getting trough winter is to roughly double my solar array and I do not have that much extra space and if I did that I would end up dumping power during the fall and spring. My connection fee to the grid is $7.21/month. That is relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of batteries and extra panels one would need to fully cover one's needs and be off grid.

View attachment 47437


For someone who has electric heating, it will be tough to go off the grid any time soon, but it will happen in the future; although it will take a little longer. If you have gas heating, then it is a lot easier. But even with electric heating, here in Texas it will not be a problem at all; it just depends on geography.

Some time in the future, maybe 10, 15, or 20 years from now, you will be able to install a solar system on your roof for about $1.50/W and battery costs will be $100/kWh (about 8 years from now according to Elon). So, lets say that you can get a battery storage system installed for $150/kWh.

You can install a 10kW solar system and 100kWh battery system for $15k each or $30k total. So, without any government subsidies if you expect this system to last 20 years then you are paying roughly $120/month for all of your electricity needs.

Not everyone will be able to move off the grid, but for those who will have that option it becomes a no-brainer. As more people move off the grid, electricity prices will go up for others, which will lead to more people going off the grid; creating a utility death spiral.

BTW, there are very easy ways to lower your electricity usage: switch out all light bulbs to LED, insulate your home better, turn off the lights when you are not in the room, etc.
 
This video has a thorough analysis of lease vs own debate in an overall market perspective.

It's from GTM Solar Summit 2014.

Solar Summit 2014: Opportunities and Threats in the Residential Solar Market, Recorded on 4/16/14 GreentechMedia on USTREAM. Conference

The more I listen to Solarcity talk about their methods,the more I see how they are trying to tailor their products toward specific consumer bases. Chris Tan in this video makes it clear they are developing lease for middle income (ie 50k) buyers that are on a tight budget, low disposable income, that would like to reduce their operational costs with minimal risk. He said if they develop a product that addresses this market, they can open a much bigger market segment then previously available... He said about 50 million homes. The market for ownership is big, but this market group seems key to mass adoption, therefore, important to develop a product aimed specifically to meet their needs.

Solar City talks sun! - YouTube

also, in this video, I see a continuation of solarcity's specificity in targeting particular market segments. In this clip, he says retirees that want to go solar don't necessarily benefit from ITC, so lease turns out to be best... Also, Solarcity turns away customers if they don't meet criteria, which means to me they see the market being so vast, they can be very particular with whom they engage and still compound growth... That bodes well for all solar companies since others can tailor their services to a specific group Solarcity doesn't and still see tremendous growth, like $0 down loans... Seems to be enough for everyone to succeed...
 
Just curious, could Solarcity get into the Chinese energy market? Tesla currently making a splash, superchargers expected to be in the hundreds... Could Solarcity work its way in there too? DG grid management related to energy storage could be their core service/business working with Chinese module manufacturers and local utilities. Even if a fantasy, still fascinating possibility.
 
Just curious, could Solarcity get into the Chinese energy market? Tesla currently making a splash, superchargers expected to be in the hundreds... Could Solarcity work its way in there too? Energy storage and grid management relegated to energy storage could be their core service/business working with Chinese module manufacturers. Even if a fantasy, still fascinating possibility.

Electricity is very cheap in China. Solarcity first needs to get to states with no subsidies in the US.
 
Electricity is very cheap in China. Solarcity first needs to get to states with no subsidies in the US.

Right, first develop PV+storage network here, scale it, show profit, etc... If they do this could almost represent the demonstration article to the rest of the world it is viable. I'm throwing a wild number out there, but could be there in about 4 years, right as the gigafactory ramping, as well as, china factory getting finished... Timing seems right on many levels...

update: Chinese power might be cheap, but it's super dirty... Main reason they are pushing so hard to go electric and solar right now... Is it better to do dirty, or invest a little more in near term and do clean?
 
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We're all about uncovering new methods for improving performancePlant Engineering

"The SunSpec-developed process has been used in one deal that involved packaging $54 million worth of power purchase agreements into bonds that were sold on the open market. The company offering those securities, Solar City, is paying investors 4.5% interest on its notes, which is roughly two percentage points less than it normally paid to borrow capital.


That two percentage point rate reduction is expected to cut roughly 50 cent per Watt off the cost of producing solar energy. That should, in turn, result in a lower cost of power to the end consumer."

interesting to know that ABS is projected to drop costs .50/watt... Seems pretty significant if Solarcity continues to offer them every quarter in the future...
 
Right, first develop PV+storage network here, scale it, show profit, etc... If they do this could almost represent the demonstration article to the rest of the world it is viable. I'm throwing a wild number out there, but could be there in about 4 years, right as the gigafactory ramping, as well as, china factory getting finished... Timing seems right on many levels...

update: Chinese power might be cheap, but it's super dirty... Main reason they are pushing so hard to go electric and solar right now... Is it better to do dirty, or invest a little more in near term and do clean?

In China, manufacturers themselves are doing utility scale projects. SolarCity can do residential projects but those don't take off until it makes financial sense. I'd really like to see solarcity compete with 11c/kWh power in the US first. This was an interesting find - 92.1% of New Electricity Capacity From Renewables In 1st Quarter of 2014 | CleanTechnica
 
In China, manufacturers themselves are doing utility scale projects. SolarCity can do residential projects but those don't take off until it makes financial sense. I'd really like to see solarcity compete with 11c/kWh power in the US first. This was an interesting find - 92.1% of New Electricity Capacity From Renewables In 1st Quarter of 2014 | CleanTechnica

It it seems to me the problem is not PV system deployment, especially utility scale in china(or the rest of the world). It's the problem of scaled intermittence stressing the grid. The key solution is storage. Tesla has created a pack that can scale up to utility level storage or scale down to residential storage. Also, in terms of production scale, gigafactory will produce more storage then any other company in the world. Solarcity will become the only company capable of networked storage grid operation. 1+1 gives you a powerful team in the global energy market... Maybe china will be cracked open in a few years as production capacity builds... Wouldn't be surprised if tesla also builds a gigafactory in addition to a manufacturing site there. China wants to have 5 mln electric cars by 2020, might be sooner then later if Model s is a success over 2014... and Solarcity might feel some of the tailwind...

Update: also have to remember, we have no idea what scaled DG looks like, I'm sure millions of inverters out there will create new problems no one could have anticipated, creating a new set of solutions that create new industries... I remember JB Straubel saying power electronics will prove to be a massive industry very soon... Any company that proves scalable efficiencies here will be extremely valuable to the broader market... Back in October JB even gave a brief to Stanford students encouraging them to go into the field, create start ups, etc...
 
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And now what I originally intended for this post... here is what I think Solarcity will set out as their Q2-Q4 MW goals:

Q2: 98-102MWs
Q3: 118-122MWs
Q4: 195-205MWs

If they follow their current pattern, they should guide for 98-102MWs installed for Q2... Anything over this estimate will indicate they will deliver over 525Mws by year end, IMO...

Benzinga - Actionable Trading Ideas, Real Time News, Financial Insight

Goldman's Brian Lee feels Solarcity will forecast 120-130MWS for Q2, which is pretty aggressive... If that turns out to be the case, then they will crush all high end 2014 estimates, would install way over 525MWs.

i still think they will guide for 98-102MWs, maybe 100-104MWs at highest... Got to set realistic expectations to beat... But, I'd love to proven wrong in this case. This would be a huge jump and significant indicator of potentially over 100% compounded growth by year end if Brian's estimate is accurate.
 
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