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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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I have seen too many charts and data since I got my 2023 MYLR . I digest them (as a scientist) but I am not sure what I believe anymore. Testla website says (1) U can charge anytime (2) Plug in all the time is OK (3) Up to 80% is OK (4) Charge up to 100% then drive right away to discharge
Follow what AAKEE says.

Plugging in all the time is not the same as charging all the time after you reach the charge limit. Keeping it plugged in at a low charge level (50%) so any accessory use in on wall current and not the low-voltage battery is beneficial.

Setting max charge level to significantly lower, 55% or less, for daily use will result in less calendar aging than using 80%. 80% will not result in so much degradation to trigger a warranty repair, but retaining even more battery capacity will help you long run. Tesla doesn't care about your battery health in the long run as much as you do, and they care more about public relations than you do.

If you need the range at 90-100% then charge up that high occasionally and then drive. Don't let it sit there for a long time for many weeks or consistently. I choose charging up high at home over more supercharger use.
 
The warranty warrants you a battery that holds 70% adter eight years.
Tesla mostly gice you a battery that has the same capacity (range) as before it broke.
This sounds like speculation. Is there data on what Tesla actually does? I doubt Tesla keeps a stock of 70% batteries (which would degrade below that threshold while in storage). Most likely one would get a random draw from a distribution of refurbished batteries ranging from low 70s to mid-90s.
 
{Setting max charge level to significantly lower, 55% or less, for daily use will result in less calendar aging than using 80%.}

Please share your empirical data.
Thanks Pro. Greatly appreciated
It is already there in the linked report, 15/50% causing substantially lower calendar aging than 80%
Heres a basic picture already posted. Se the sharp drop in degradation at
IMG_1548.jpeg

This sounds like speculation. Is there data on what Tesla actually does? I doubt Tesla keeps a stock of 70% batteries (which would degrade below that threshold while in storage). Most likely one would get a random draw from a distribution of refurbished batteries ranging from low 70s to mid-90s.
Not speculating.

I guess you know the ’spec’ of the warranty.

Sometimes people get brand new batteries as there isnt any refurbished around.
Mostly they get refurbished ones at about the same range old range.

Trying to kill it and hoping for a new pack is a kind of a big gamling.
 
Not speculating.

...

Sometimes
That's definitely speculation tho.

W/o data on what Tesla does for warranty replacements, recommendations on what to do for charging if one's goal is ensuring the most usable battery post-warranty is necessarily incomplete. I'm NOT saying it's optimal to ride the battery as hard as possible, I'm saying that it *could* be under some circumstances, and we need data to make that determination. If one is out of warranty, charge to 50-60%.
 
Reading carefully, the authors conclude that accelerated aging at low SOC is due to SiOx degradation
The strong SOC dependency is shown to be largely attributed to ageing of SiOx in mixed material electrodes, with LAM(SiOx) contributing to a loss of 7% of overall capacity in 5-15% SOC cycling, compared to only 3% in 85-95% SOC cycling.
It is known that silicon doping of the graphite anode can increase energy density and increase charge/discharge rate, however silicon doped anodes also have faster degradation compared to pure graphite anodes. This degradation mechanism might be related to the low SOC behavior in this study.

This is interesting because Panasonic NCA has high silicon doping. LG's NCM-811 batteries have silicon too. As far as I know, CATL's LFP batteries and Tesla's 4680 (NCM-811 cathode) have no silicon in the anode, so they are likely not affected by this mechanism of degradation.
 
That's 2016 data. I wonder if they publish 2020-2022 data of LFP cells Tesla battery?
Battery chemistry doesn't change that much. Maybe the general rate of aging in production might be slightly lower thanks to proprietary CATL additives and production techniques, but the trend and the change in rate vs state of charge will still stay there as that's a fundamental chemistry issue, and that's what the scientific papers are about.
 
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50% SoC is basically storage voltage for lithium batteries. The whole charge to 100% always with LFP is bad advice IMO. LFP batteries have more FCE than NMC/NCA cells for certain but 50% SoC is the sweet spot.
50% is good, but apparently, the lower the better from what's being presented here. Not much difference below 50%, but for example 30% is slightly better.
 
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The whole charge to 100% always with LFP is bad advice IMO.

Charging to high SOC with LFP is more about getting an accurate cell balance AFAIK. LFP has a really flat V vs SOC profile in the middle, so if it always sits there the BMS has no good data to balance on. Push cell voltages beyond ~3.6 volts and the V vs SOC starts to go vertical. So you get some "automatic balancing" just from that, but it lets the BMS have far better data about cell balance to do additional passive balancing with.

I don't have an LFP Tesla, but IIRC they say something like charge to 100% roughly weekly. I'd still only do so right before I was about to drive off ~20% of SOC or so within several hours.
 
So how long can we reasonably expect the cells to last if we keep the avg SoC about 50-55%? I know Tesla's warranty goes out to 8 yrs, but what is the realistic lifespan if we maintain them well?

I've been keeping my avg SoC on my 3 at about 50% and so I've had minimal degradation so far. I keep the DoD cycles low and so far working well. About 20 months in, 10k miles and less than 1% degradation. My Y, where I followed the general Tesla approach showed 6% in less months and fewer miles. Both were in a very hot climate which ties into my next question.

Something else I haven't seen is what temps does Tesla keep the batteries at when unplugged and plugged in? My understanding is Tesla cools the batteries on a hot day even when the car isn't being used. So let's say I am in Death Valley and temps are 50C or in Arizona and it is 40C. What are the cell temps going to be in the car when parked in the sun?

If it isn't doing any active cooling, the cells could be much higher than ambient temps and as a result degrade even faster. If they are being cooled, is there a difference when you have it plugged in or not? If so, and they are actively cooled, and to a lower temp, there is even more incentive to keep your car plugged in as much as possible.
 
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I don't have an LFP Tesla, but IIRC they say something like charge to 100% roughly weekly. I'd still only do so right before I was about to drive off ~20% of SOC or so within several hours.
There’s not a big difference between 80 and 100% SOC. In some cases, 80% degrades faster than 100%.


LFP calendar aging. Its not from the actual CATL cells Tesla use. Bottom graph shows the calendar aging and that 80% is at least not much better than 100%
IMG_6317.jpeg
 
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So how long can we reasonably expect the cells to last if we keep the avg SoC about 50-55%? I know Tesla's warranty goes out to 8 yrs, but what is the realistic lifespan if we maintain them well?
If we threat them well, they will hold up the double time as the degradation will be cut in half.
Temperature has a big impact, but at any temperature the calendar aging about halfs when using low SOC.

I think there is a increasing number of S batteries pushing fault codes and needibg replacement at or slightly beyond warranty limit. As it seems it is not always other failures but in quite a few cases it looks like the cells getting tired and fallibg out of balance with the car unable to recover.
I've been keeping my avg SoC on my 3 at about 50% and so I've had minimal degradation so far. I keep the DoD cycles low and so far working well. About 20 months in, 10k miles and less than 1% degradation. My Y, where I followed the general Tesla approach showed 6% in less months and fewer miles. Both were in a very hot climate which ties into my next question.

Something else I haven't seen is what temps does Tesla keep the batteries at when unplugged and plugged in? My understanding is Tesla cools the batteries on a hot day even when the car isn't being used.
I havent seen this at all, but I live in a colder climate. We get up to 30C in the summers and the car do not cool the battery pack at all on model 3 when parked.
There is a few values in the Bms which can be seen with SMT, but from memory these are when driving.
So let's say I am in Death Valley and temps are 50C or in Arizona and it is 40C. What are the cell temps going to be in the car when parked in the sun?
I have seen that the battery usually gers about 5C warmer than the ambient in dumny confitions. We do not have the sun very high and it is not as ”strong” as other places so this might differ in other areas.
If it isn't doing any active cooling, the cells could be much higher than ambient temps and as a result degrade even faster. If they are being cooled, is there a difference when you have it plugged in or not? If so, and they are actively cooled, and to a lower temp, there is even more incentive to keep your car plugged in as much as possible.
I do not know, living in a too cold atea for that.

Some people usually writes that older model S always has the cooling pump running when the car is at higher SOC.
I do not know what is true and myths here.
But I know that the AC (or heatpump) must run to actively cool the battery in a hot environment.
(My Plaid do not run the pumps).
 
There’s not a big difference between 80 and 100% SOC. In some cases, 80% degrades faster than 100%.


LFP calendar aging. Its not from the actual CATL cells Tesla use. Bottom graph shows the calendar aging and that 80% is at least not much better than 100%
View attachment 975488
This chart suggests that 70% SOC is sort of a threshold for LFP. Between 70-100% SOC, you lose an additional 3% or so in battery capacity. That's actually not too bad all on its own. However, it's when you combine SOC capacity loss with high temperatures and time that the capacity loss starts to feel bigger.
 
Charging to high SOC with LFP is more about getting an accurate cell balance AFAIK. LFP has a really flat V vs SOC profile in the middle, so if it always sits there the BMS has no good data to balance on. Push cell voltages beyond ~3.6 volts and the V vs SOC starts to go vertical. So you get some "automatic balancing" just from that, but it lets the BMS have far better data about cell balance to do additional passive balancing with.

I don't have an LFP Tesla, but IIRC they say something like charge to 100% roughly weekly. I'd still only do so right before I was about to drive off ~20% of SOC or so within several hours.

Correct. I owned a 3 RWD briefly and folks here were telling other owners to charging to 100% always which to me is bad advice.

Li-iron batteries have a different voltage curve and need to be charged to 100% for calibration BUT that doesn't mean owners should charge to 100% SoC and keep it there. I think Tesla's advice to "charge to 100% once per week" got misinterpreted to "charge to 100% all the time and it's fine if you keep it there also"
 
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This doent makes sense. One doesn't need Tesla replacement data to determine how to take care of their battery. Maybe you're meaning something else.
If all you're doing is maintaining your original one - sure. But when there's an option to get a replacement refurbished one (that could be better than the one you were babying for 8 years) just before the warranty expires, it totally does depend on what Tesla does.
 
As can be seen from this thread title...this is on going research...so best practice advice might differ. But Tesla’s position seems to follow a theme...they combine best practice with ease of use. This advice is great for most owners usage...for those of us that love to geek out it lacks detail
The old adage comes to mined; "The devil is in the details."

I wish I had known more of this years ago but not as much data on it. I had a PHEV. The pack showed almost 50% degradation in 5 years and 100k miles. Once you start losing capacity, you just charge more to compensate and accelerate the wear.