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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
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As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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I wish I had known more of this years ago but not as much data on it. I had a PHEV. The pack showed almost 50% degradation in 5 years and 100k miles. Once you start losing capacity, you just charge more to compensate and accelerate the wear.

For regular PHEV’s, we do not have much choices for charging levels on PHEV’s (still very small capacity). I guess there is not a setting to charge other than 100%?

I think we in general can expect wuite high degradation on hybrid cars batteries.

So this leave us to the ”only” option to charge late.
As it is a quite small battery it should be possible to keep the average SOC quite low I guess.
 
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For regular PHEV’s, we do not have much choices for charging levels on PHEV’s (still very small capacity). I guess there is not a setting to charge other than 100%?

I think we in general can expect wuite high degradation on hybrid cars batteries.

So this leave us to the ”only” option to charge late.
As it is a quite small battery it should be possible to keep the average SOC quite low I guess.

You can set the charge limit to something lower than 100% and reduce charging speeds. Most PHEVs in the US max out around 7.4 kW AC/L2 and many are much lower than that.

PHEVs like the RAV4 Prime have a large buffer (14.5 kWh usable out of 18.1 kWh gross). I see 20% buffers whereas EVs usually have sub 10% buffers and sometimes as low as 3%. PHEV battery degradation is less impactful because of this large buffer and also ICE drivetrain.
 
PHEVs like the RAV4 Prime have a large buffer (14.5 kWh usable out of 18.1 kWh gross). I see 20% buffers whereas EVs usually have sub 10% buffers and sometimes as low as 3%. PHEV battery degradation is less impactful because of this large buffer and also ICE drivetrain.
It's still pretty bad because when used as intended, PHEVs are going to experience ~0.8 FCE per day, which would be ~1500 cycles over 5 years, resulting in very significant cycling degradation. PHEV manufacturers should be using LFP batteries, but that's hard from an engineering standpoint due to LFPs lower volumetric energy density and packaging constraints.
 
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So much information here but I think I understand how to take advantage of it all. With our 2018 MX it ended up with well over 11pct of degradation. We had over 92,000 miles on the car. The practice was to charge to 90 and leave it there for daily use until Tesla recommended 80pct.

Now on to my Model 3. I think what I'm seeing here is calendar degradation can be reduced if SOC stays 55pct or below as that appears to be the tipping point.

So, if I daily the vehicle using approx. 30 % and I charge to 65 % each night, it would be better practice to charge to 55 % and arrive back at 25% each day vs 35% ? Yes, no, maybe, amen?


Thanks to all the contributors providing knowledge to a heathy discussion.
 
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I noticed from the first graph from the paper presented, over longer term the reduction in calendar aging from being <= 50% is more like 1/3rd and not 1/2 the rate of calendar aging at 85%. That may be a more realistic sense of the difference and is consistent with my personal experience.
 
I noticed from the first graph from the paper presented, over longer term the reduction in calendar aging from being <= 50% is more like 1/3rd and not 1/2 the rate of calendar aging at 85%. That may be a more realistic sense of the difference and is consistent with my personal experience.
There always will be small differences from test to test.
The sum of tests still points to higher difference than 1/3.
I’d still say about double as high or 5/3 at 80 as at 50% if you ask me.
 
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I noticed from the first graph from the paper presented, over longer term the reduction in calendar aging from being <= 50% is more like 1/3rd and not 1/2 the rate of calendar aging at 85%. That may be a more realistic sense of the difference and is consistent with my personal experience.
I interpret your comment to mean you can get up to 33% of the degradation you’d see at 85% over the long term with a low SOC strategy. That’s even better than the 50% discussed.

Or, do you mean you’ll get 66% of the degradation you’d get at 85% with a low SOC strategy?
 
There always will be small differences from test to test.
The sum of tests still points to higher difference than 1/3.
I’d still say about double as high or 5/3 at 80 as at 50% if you ask
Reread. I now understand what is being said. If you get X degradation and 85%, the graphs are suggesting you’ll either get 1/2x or 2/3x degradation with a low SOC strategy.
 
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Reread. I now understand what is being said. If you get X degradation and 85%, the graphs are suggesting you’ll either get 1/2x or 2/3x degradation with a low SOC strategy.
Yes. As a simple rule of thumb we can think that keeping the SOC at or below 55% (for NCA) we will cut the degradation in half compared to use higher SOC.

Not at all to set @DrChaos findings aside but to emphasize that research often have small differences and that the truth probably is close to the mean values, here is other data on the same thing:
IMG_4553.jpeg


IMG_9094.jpeg


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The chart you show above and another one that youve shown in the past suggest low SoC cycling reduced cyclic aging. This recent data in this thread shows low SoC accelerated cyclic aging tremendously and is the worst SoC to cycle at. The recent data has kind of made me avoid wanting to go below 30%. Almost like rather take the calendar aging hit than the cycling hit. But maybe Im not getting all the math and what is best degradation curve to “ride”.

Comments there on this not being a small difference in the datasets? Is it truly a different C rate from past datasets? Is it a fact the recent data is actually using a Tesla 2170 NCA cell and not a generic NCA cell? Chemistry difference?
 
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Looking at the recent SoC cycling dataset again. It really looks like triple the degradation when cycling in the 15-20% range as compared to cycling around 40-50%. And almost double the degradation as compared to even cycling around 90%.


View attachment 978471
Does this graph mean that they did only 10% cycling, as in charging from 45-55% (as an example), then discharging to 45%, then repeat this over and over?
 
Does this graph mean that they did only 10% cycling, as in charging from 45-55% (as an example), then discharging to 45%, then repeat this over and over?
Thats how I understood it. In 10% increments depth of discharge. So for somebody doing a discharge from 65% to 15%, you would degrade at the 65-55% rate, then 55-45% rate, then 45-35% rate, then 35-25% rate, then 25-15% rate. Total 50% of charge used.

But that is not the best way to minimize cyclic degradation according to this recent dataset. 85-35% wouldve given less cyclic degradation for the same 50% charge used. 75%-25% wouldve been better than 65-15% as well.

Havent done the math but there could be a significant difference here in some of these scenarios.

That is how I am interpreting this data for cyclic degradation.
 
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The chart you show above and another one that youve shown in the past suggest low SoC cycling reduced cyclic aging. This recent data in this thread shows low SoC accelerated cyclic aging tremendously and is the worst SoC to cycle at.
The pictures you quoted is calendar aging.

There is a increase in cyclic aging in this graph at low SOC:

But it is important to remember that this is very low cyclic degradation anyway.
15% at 1000 FCE means about 15% after 1000x400 km (400.000km), or about 0.5-0.75% cyclic aging per year.
If you only do cycle at 45-55 or 34-45% you loose 1/3 of this or about 0.15-0.25% in cyclic aging each year.

From very very low annual cyclic degradation to very low, might be a tremendeous increase but the annual rate is still low.

So choosing higher SOC due to this will most probably cause a much higher calendar aging.

As already described, these tests did use very high current/power compared to normal driving. Other tests show that the degradation at low SOC is more dependant on current/power than at higher SOC.
IMG_5171.jpeg



The recent data has kind of made me avoid wanting to go below 30%. Almost like rather take the calendar aging hit than the cycling hit. But maybe Im not getting all the math and what is best degradation curve to “ride”.
This is a bit like being afraid of commercial flying with airlines and taking the car instead. Contraproductive.
Comments there on this not being a small difference in the datasets? Is it truly a different C rate from past datasets? Is it a fact the recent data is actually using a Tesla 2170 NCA cell and not a generic NCA cell? Chemistry difference?
These Cells was taken out of a model 3.
 
I interpret your comment to mean you can get up to 33% of the degradation you’d see at 85% over the long term with a low SOC strategy. That’s even better than the 50% discussed.

Or, do you mean you’ll get 66% of the degradation you’d get at 85% with a low SOC strategy?

More the second. Look at the first graph on this thread. Eyeball at end looked like degradation rate is lowered but not by half. Let's crowdsource the estimate of degradation @ 50% vs 85%.
 
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Thats how I understood it. In 10% increments depth of discharge. So for somebody doing a discharge from 65% to 15%, you would degrade at the 65-55% rate, then 55-45% rate, then 45-35% rate, then 35-25% rate, then 25-15% rate. Total 50% of charge used.

But that is not the best way to minimize cyclic degradation according to this recent dataset. 85-35% wouldve given less cyclic degradation for the same 50% charge used. 75%-25% wouldve been better than 65-15% as well.

Havent done the math but there could be a significant difference here in some of these scenarios.

That is how I am interpreting this data for cyclic degradation.

It might be true but also consider the increase in calendar aging by spending more time at high state of charge. Notice the x-axis, Full Cycle Equivalent. So I have a 2022 model 3, about 15,000 miles. With let's say 78 kWh and average 0.240 kWh/mi a Full Cycle Equivalent is 325 miles. Thats 46.15 FCE. So with 10x, at 13-14 years old, 150,000 miles? 460 FCE. A long way from here in time and use and still well on the left part of this graph. Cyclic aging is a small part of the degradation, vs calendar aging as AAKEE has always been saying since the beginning. That was a big surprise to me when I first read it here but the data supports it. Lots of battery research concentrates on cyclic aging---as obviously its much faster to get results.

This result doesn't change the recommendation: I'd be best off with the same maximum charge limit of 50% that helps for calendar aging, so that most cycles are 50 to 40 or 35%. If you had to drive so far that you drop down below 15% even then still it might be worth it to keep the top limit at 55% for calendar aging minimization. And that would have to be regular heavy every day usage, probably commercial driving.
 
If you had to drive so far that you drop down below 15% even then still it might be worth it to keep the top limit at 55% for calendar aging minimization. And that would have to be regular heavy every day usage, probably commercial driving.
In that case, how about charging to 50%, and then just before leaving go to 65 or 70%? The calendar aging from that should be close to nothing, as it will be at > 55% for a very short time.
 
In that case, how about charging to 50%, and then just before leaving go to 65 or 70%? The calendar aging from that should be close to nothing, as it will be at > 55% for a very short time.
It'll be fine. Just keep the time-weighted average SOC low. Keep it simple. It's all you can really control (you can't really control how much you use the car or how many times you cycle the pack, if you intend to use the car), and it's the thing that matters most.

If you can control it, charge whenever you can, but not too high of course. But this seems to be less important (makes the car easier to use in most cases, though, so that's an advantage).
 
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@AAKEE @DrChaos

Great feedback and dialogue. Especially when its data driven.

I think the fact that I live in hot desert area makes me look for how to optimize the crap out of my cycle usage for both my wife’s Tesla and mine to offset that. Couple that with being an engineer (aerospace related so not afraid of commercial flights @AAKEE lol) and its a recipe for overthinking but its fun. Always looking for any ounce of decreasing degradation to compensate and offset for the high temperatures the battery goes through in summer.

PS: Wish I can change the Battery TMS logic to less passive cooling and more active cooling of battery.
 
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