stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Hopefully that becomes true of the Model 3 too. It would definitely be great to eliminate dongles.
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Completely agree, bad move on your “flagship” vehicles Tesla.
They are clearly working backwards. When they designed the 3 they were able to hide it in the tail light but they probably had to add the gas cap to minimize engineering changes in the S/X.
By squeezing it into the S/X the 3 came out better.
Better than adding CCS/CHAdeMO/etc to the Model 3 but not the Model S/X. Then the Model 3 would be *way* better. A slight design hit is definitely preferable.
Personally I'm expecting a raft of "continuous improvement" on the 3 this early in it's life, same as we saw on the Model S.
By the time non Tesla employees get their cars we may well see new ports. It would have been a tricky position for Tesla to find themselves in if the cheaper model 3 had broader charging options than the S/X, so they may have just held back until it is available across the line-up.
Many of us wondered/speculated why the charge port door was so big on the Model 3. They obviously planned for this from the beginning. As for first production not having them, first production Model 3s are only for the US. They could easily add CCS ports before first production for non-employees and perhaps even retrofit employee vehicles in the future.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think that is probably the biggest consideration. It'll be weird if the Model 3 is "better" than the S/X in this regard, so they just had this as a stopgap.
Although, we should also keep in mind the possibility that they are doing this in China only because it may be mandatory there just to keep selling EVs.
There's a lot of confusion on this thread. Just a clarification, the new GB ports are IN REPLACEMENT of the EU plug under the light in the Chinese cars. The old EU ports are gone in China.
I highly doubt this is a new strategy for Tesla globally. I would expect Tesla to continue with their existing strategy at least in the near term: Use only the single plug for non-China markets, and supply adapters to allow the cars to charge with other types of connectors.
I commented on the electrek article earlier on why this is the case (short answer: it must have been a government mandate):
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And I do want to emphasize just how extensive the GB networks are. I've heard a number of 170k chargers around the country (both DC and AC), and it certainly does seem like it's possible given that they're in practically every parking lot. This is not the case in other countries, where Tesla's own destination and supercharger networks are so superior that they negate the need to support another type of connector.
Therefore, don't bet on a CCS connector on non-Chinese cars anytime soon.
I highly doubt this is a new strategy for Tesla globally. I would expect Tesla to continue with their existing strategy at least in the near term: Use only the single plug for non-China markets, and supply adapters to allow the cars to charge with other types of connectors.
I commented on the electrek article earlier on why this is the case (short answer: it must have been a government mandate):
"
This is a topic that I actually know a lot about. It's unlikely that Tesla will do this in other markets. The reason Tesla did this in China is political.
What the article neglected to mention (or the author didn't realize) is that Tesla is actually ABANDONING the type 2 connector in China. All new cars will have the GB plugs (there's 2: AC, DC), and all superchargers will convert to the GB plugs. This means that all existing Tesla owners in China will need to use an adapter to use superchargers in the future. In addition, in the short term, new Tesla cars won't be able to use superchargers until the superchargers have been converted to the GB plug.
From Tesla's perspective, this makes NO sense as it means a very messy transition. Old owners are pissed off and new owners are temporarily inconvenienced. There's the extra cost to modify all superchargers, and plus that dual port design looks ugly.
But it makes perfect sense from the perspective of the Chinese government: It broadens adoption of the GB plug and unifies the charging standards used in the country (which I agree, is ideal from a national perspective to have common standards).
If Tesla had it's way, they would release the GB to type 2 converters while still keeping superchargers and Tesla cars on type 2. This eliminates the inconvenience of a total switch, and preserves the "uniqueness" of Tesla cars and superchargers in the market. At the same time, Tesla owners will have access to the GB networks via the adapter. (GB chargers are a far more convenient option in China, as GB fast DC chargers already have much better coverage than superchargers, at much better locations, e.g. highway rest areas. Tesla must realize that GB fast chargers will always be more common than superchargers and they cannot win against the infrastructure capability of the government.)
However, Tesla didn't do the above, and instead chose to abandon type 2 altogether. And even though test units of the converters have already been seen for a year ago, full release was mysteriously delayed, until today. Today's announcement and the simultaneous release of the adapters explains all of this. It's clear that Tesla could not release the GB converter for political reasons, and the conversion of future Tesla cars and superchargers to GB must have been the compromise.
"What the article neglected to mention (or the author didn't realize) is that Tesla is actually ABANDONING the type 2 connector in China. All new cars will have the GB plugs (there's 2: AC, DC), and all superchargers will convert to the GB plugs. This means that all existing Tesla owners in China will need to use an adapter to use superchargers in the future. In addition, in the short term, new Tesla cars won't be able to use superchargers until the superchargers have been converted to the GB plug.
From Tesla's perspective, this makes NO sense as it means a very messy transition. Old owners are pissed off and new owners are temporarily inconvenienced. There's the extra cost to modify all superchargers, and plus that dual port design looks ugly.
But it makes perfect sense from the perspective of the Chinese government: It broadens adoption of the GB plug and unifies the charging standards used in the country (which I agree, is ideal from a national perspective to have common standards).
If Tesla had it's way, they would release the GB to type 2 converters while still keeping superchargers and Tesla cars on type 2. This eliminates the inconvenience of a total switch, and preserves the "uniqueness" of Tesla cars and superchargers in the market. At the same time, Tesla owners will have access to the GB networks via the adapter. (GB chargers are a far more convenient option in China, as GB fast DC chargers already have much better coverage than superchargers, at much better locations, e.g. highway rest areas. Tesla must realize that GB fast chargers will always be more common than superchargers and they cannot win against the infrastructure capability of the government.)
However, Tesla didn't do the above, and instead chose to abandon type 2 altogether. And even though test units of the converters have already been seen for a year ago, full release was mysteriously delayed, until today. Today's announcement and the simultaneous release of the adapters explains all of this. It's clear that Tesla could not release the GB converter for political reasons, and the conversion of future Tesla cars and superchargers to GB must have been the compromise.
And I do want to emphasize just how extensive the GB networks are. I've heard a number of 170k chargers around the country (both DC and AC), and it certainly does seem like it's possible given that they're in practically every parking lot. This is not the case in other countries, where Tesla's own destination and supercharger networks are so superior that they negate the need to support another type of connector.
Therefore, don't bet on a CCS connector on non-Chinese cars anytime soon.
The CCS network in Europe is bigger than the Supercharger network, at least in terms of number of charging locations, but probably also charging points too (if not now, then soon). The CCS standard also doesn't allow adapters. CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe
I think we will see CCS in Europe and CHAdeMO in Japan (it's *huge* there), but I'm less sure about seeing CCS in the US. CCS is still in it's infancy in the US.
I didn't know that CCS doesn't allow for adapters. In which case, I think an extra CCS plug might be possible. But not CHADEMO or the other plugs that can currently be adapted.
I'm still betting 2018 for EU bound Model 3's for similar reason. Government mandates (vehicle type approval regs), plus as @Yggdrasill says a growing network of charging points where adaptors would be problematic.
@ricebucket But that would also mean that new Teslas couldn't use the destination charging stations that have been installed already. Are they going to go back through and replace all of them with the GB plug as well?
Not sure about destination chargers. The only announcement so far has only talked about superchargers. But regardless, you can see how messy and costly the situation is. Tesla must have preferred to keep type 2 connectors if they had a choice.
For the A/C side wouldn't it just take a dumb adaptor like the J1772 -> Tesla has in the US market, but in this case EU/"Mennekes" -> GB/T. Shipping those as a stop gap with new cars?
Sure, it could even work for Superchargers. (If a GB ->- EU/"Mennekes" will work for the old cars once all of the Superchargers are "updated".)
That's not what I'm understanding from @ricebowl 's post.
The Superchargers will be going to GB/T DC style plugs. (The CHAdeMO looking one). The AC ports on the car however will be moving from EU to GB/T AC style ones.
If this is the case Tesla will have to make a smart adaptor similar to the CHAdeMO one that is already available for DC, but that doesn't fix AC charging compatibility (which as you rightly point out will require something to be done with the destination charging as well).
Why would it have to be a smart adapter? Just because it uses the GB/T DC plug doesn't mean it is going to use the communication standard. Do you think Tesla is going to let any GB/T car use their Superchargers? (I'm sure the car can figure out what it is plugged in to and talk with the appropriate protocol.)
There is also no reason Tesla couldn't put their UMC/destination AC charging on the same GB/T DC plug. (Unless the power is three-phase in China in which case their might not be enough conductors available.)
Of course they could go the opposite way and the dumb adapter could adapt the Superchargers, as well as the destination chargers, to the GB/T AC plug...
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@MP3Mike my thinking is just like the CHAdeMO adaptor on the EU cars, part of the job is to control the safety latching differences.
The other point is the adaptor would also need to work on non-Supercharger DC points. I guess if you took that constraint away, it could be simplified, but owners of recent deliveries would likely be up in arms.
The other point is the adaptor would also need to work on non-Supercharger DC points. I guess if you took that constraint away, it could be simplified, but owners of recent deliveries would likely be up in arms.
Well... I can tell you, for 100% certain, that I'm holding off on upgrading until it happens in North America.
I am looking forward to my dongle-free future.
I've only been to China once (for a 4 week vacation earlier this year), but one take away was quite how officious they can be. Quite simply they may say "Using the DC plug for AC doesn't meet specs, and therefore is not allowed."
(This is likely why we are in this mess in the first place
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