SR (limited?)battery degradation

[gary3411]

So I have a SR on order to pick up next week. My one hesitation has been loss of range due to degradation 2-10 years down the road and its limitations on my freedom to explore more remote areas. This is not a convenience concern, but a literal "you can't drive to that trailhead, go in the backcountry for a few days and drive back out because there is nowhere to charge within 90 miles" concern. I am not willing to pay the cost of a LR at this moment.

Assuming the battery gets software limited to 220miles, leaving it a 'spare' 20 miles worth of battery, does this mean that 'spare' 20 miles would be the first to 'degrade'? In other words, my SR will not degrade until that degradation exceeds the spare 20 miles? Or would my pack degrade evenly and I see the same proportion of degradation as a non-software locked car?

This question may not have a definite answer at the moment. I'm open to theories.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[vickh]

I believe the SR software battery lock protects degradation. Perhaps S owners can post real world data about software battery locks

 

[Rottenapplr]

Is there a more overhead for sr? Say you can always charge to 100%? Battery degradation 8 yrs and forward was one reason I got the long ranger version.

How often would you need a car to explore the trail head? If it’s once in a while, I would rent a car. If it’s often, then I believe there’s a point where ones interest and or lifestyle prevents owning an EV at this time.

 

[gary3411]

I believe the SR software battery lock protects degradation

Not sure what you mean by "protect?" Do you mean the battery would 'degrade' in the first 20 miles or not?

 

[gary3411]

How often would you need a car to explore the trail head? If it’s once in a while, I would rent a car. If it’s often, then I believe there’s a point where ones interest and or lifestyle prevents owning an EV at this time.

The frequency of these occurances is unkown. My life is constantly changing and habits/hobbies evolve. It could be 0 times a year, it could be 10. What I do know is that renting a car is not a viable option for me, unless I were to wake up a millionaire one day. I could not justify spending $70+ per day on a vehicle to go somewhere when I have a vehicle. I simply wouldn't do it.

I'm absolutely willing to plan ahead, compromise, go out of the way, drive slow, etc. to make an EV work for remote transportation. I've done the analysis and I need probably 200 miles of range to to satisfy my need for freedom. If my 220 falls to 180 in 3-5 years I will be dissapointed. If it only falls to 200, I'll be fine.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but on a massive purchase like this, I need to weigh all pros and cons. I'm literally on the top of the 'fence.' 20 miles COULD tip me one way or the other.

I would absolutely be willing to wait for the right car to come out. The main problem I see, is that there is absolutely NO EV's that will be $31,000, access to fast charging, long lasting parts, 250+ mile range, etc. on the horizon for at least 5 years. Am I wrong?

I want an EV.

I really don't want to settle on a subaru forester.

 

[gary3411]

I poked around the model S threads. There is one good thread on the topic from 2016. A lot of good debate without any answers or data. It seems the answer would be very easy to figure out, as long as someone with a software locked 60S paid attention to the miles available at any fixed % from when their car was new until now. For example, if the car read 250miles available when charged to 90% when the car was bought, but now read 230miles available when charged to 90%, then it is CLEAR the battery degrades proportionally over time. If it still read the exact same 250miles, then it is CLEAR either the battery has not degraded at all, or it degraded but the software lock has masked the degradation, either would make me happy! I would love if a software locked S owner paid enough attention to notice this. They have to be out there.

 

[Rottenapplr]

The frequency of these occurances is unkown. My life is constantly changing and habits/hobbies evolve. It could be 0 times a year, it could be 10. What I do know is that renting a car is not a viable option for me, unless I were to wake up a millionaire one day. I could not justify spending $70+ per day on a vehicle to go somewhere when I have a vehicle. I simply wouldn't do it.

I'm absolutely willing to plan ahead, compromise, go out of the way, drive slow, etc. to make an EV work for remote transportation. I've done the analysis and I need probably 200 miles of range to to satisfy my need for freedom. If my 220 falls to 180 in 3-5 years I will be dissapointed. If it only falls to 200, I'll be fine.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but on a massive purchase like this, I need to weigh all pros and cons. I'm literally on the top of the 'fence.' 20 miles COULD tip me one way or the other.

I would absolutely be willing to wait for the right car to come out. The main problem I see, is that there is absolutely NO EV's that will be $31,000, access to fast charging, long lasting parts, 250+ mile range, etc. on the horizon for at least 5 years. Am I wrong?

I want an EV.

I really don't want to settle on a subaru forester.

Ya it may not be the time yet for an ev for you given your needs. Some of us with model 3 had to wait for this model to be released before we could get a tesla (I make good money). I can do 50k but 70k is way too much.

 

[Evoforce]

Tesla has batteries that the numbers are lining up to be more than 20 years to 70%. And at 70%, 20+ years, how many miles can you still go? I drive my Tesla on long trips often. I have another 6500ish trip coming in June. 6+ year old car, 89,000 miles and has only lost 10 miles off from factory new specified range of 265. Do the math, what percentage have I degraded? Granted the 3 has different cells, but I would think they would be better than what's in my old pack!

 

[seattlite2004]

So I have a SR on order to pick up next week. My one hesitation has been loss of range due to degradation 2-10 years down the road and its limitations on my freedom to explore more remote areas. This is not a convenience concern, but a literal "you can't drive to that trailhead, go in the backcountry for a few days and drive back out because there is nowhere to charge within 90 miles" concern. I am not willing to pay the cost of a LR at this moment.

Assuming the battery gets software limited to 220miles, leaving it a 'spare' 20 miles worth of battery, does this mean that 'spare' 20 miles would be the first to 'degrade'? In other words, my SR will not degrade until that degradation exceeds the spare 20 miles? Or would my pack degrade evenly and I see the same proportion of degradation as a non-software locked car?

This question may not have a definite answer at the moment. I'm open to theories.

Thanks,
Gary

I'd be more worried about "vampire drain" and my battery percentage ain't what I was expecting when I got back to my car.

 

[gary3411]

I'd be more worried about "vampire drain" and my battery percentage ain't what I was expecting when I got back to my car.

It's a consideration for sure. But isn't that 1-2 miles per 24 hours if properly put to sleep? Sure it needs to be analyzed in trip logistics, and yes I wish it wasn't a thing, but there doesn't seem as though there will ever be an EV without some sort of vampire drain.

 

[gary3411]

Tesla has batteries that the numbers are lining up to be more than 20 years to 70%. And at 70%, 20+ years, how many miles can you still go? I drive my Tesla on long trips often. I have another 6500ish trip coming in June. 6+ year old car, 89,000 miles and has only lost 10 miles off from factory new specified range of 265. Do the math, what percentage have I degraded? Granted the 3 has different cells, but I would think they would be better than what's in my old pack!

You've lost about 4%. More importantly, you've lost 10 miles SO FAR. That is 10 miles less you can travel from a charging source. It is not ZERO, in fact no where close to zero.

I may not get quite as lucky as you. I may get luckier. Regardless, if my software locked battery degraded 4% in theory it would have degraded nothing because the first 10 percent is software locked anyway. This is an important difference.

 

[seattlite2004]

It's a consideration for sure. But isn't that 1-2 miles per 24 hours if properly put to sleep? Sure it needs to be analyzed in trip logistics, and yes I wish it wasn't a thing, but there doesn't seem as though there will ever be an EV without some sort of vampire drain.

Maybe...maybe not: A very unpleasant surprise.

Bolts have minimal to zero vampire drain.

 

[duanra]

Maybe...maybe not: A very unpleasant surprise.

Bolts have minimal to zero vampire drain.

It would be interesting to compare battery degradation over time between the Bolt and the M3. We'll see then if this drain is worth something.

 

[Evoforce]

You've lost about 4%. More importantly, you've lost 10 miles SO FAR. That is 10 miles less you can travel from a charging source. It is not ZERO, in fact no where close to zero.

I may not get quite as lucky as you. I may get luckier. Regardless, if my software locked battery degraded 4% in theory it would have degraded nothing because the first 10 percent is software locked anyway. This is an important difference.

Nowhere did I mention it was zero.

Anyway, you will lose your greatest percentage degradation off the first year of ownership then it seems to stabilize.

You will lose more miles to maintenance drain in hotter climates.

I think 4% is great compared to my 2 Nissan Leafs that both needed 2 batteries in less time period! And sure, there is no maintenance drain with Leafs but the batteries suffer greatly from degradation in hotter climates

 

[Evoforce]

Maybe...maybe not: A very unpleasant surprise.

Bolts have minimal to zero vampire drain.

Bolts do have maintenance drain in hot climates!

 

[miimura]

The one thing that does happen to the Model S software limited packs is that they go out of calibration. So, the displayed miles at the same charging level reduce over time, but it's not real degradation. The Service Center can unlock the real capacity and fully charge the battery, allowing it to properly balance and recalibrate. After that, the software limited capacity is back to normal. I would expect the Model 3 will be similar, but the fact that the SR is 91.6% of the SR+ compared to 80% with the Model S 60/75 may make a difference. Some people have reported that driving the Model 3 over an extended period with 70% charge limit will see the same reduction in range, also reversible with a full recharge cycle.

 

[gary3411]

Wow looking into vampire drain, apparently it's more than I thought, 3 miles per day MINIMUM. That is horrible. But apparently nobody outside of Tesla knows the reason for this. Between that and possible degradation from 220, this car may not make sense.

 

[gary3411]

DREAM CAR: 300mile battery with manual seats, mirrors, etc. for 30K that lasts 500k miles. No cameras, no sensors, no apps, no bluetooth. Nothing wrong with computer and software to maintain the DRIVETRAIN only. Get an update when you are in range of wifi. I believe it can be built pretty easily by Tesla and profitable.

A car is a tool.

Man Teslas could've been so great. Now what, Volkswagen? Rivian? Doubt it, they're all planning wasteful "features" too. Oh well.

 

[seattlite2004]

Bolts do have maintenance drain in hot climates!

Sure... But it has to be extremely hot. But no drain due to its computer/mcu/etc.. I left my Bolt unplugged for 2.5 weeks in a 90+degreeF garage...zero drain. Same percentage/GOM range as when I left. Even when I powered on the car and drove...range did not drop unexpectedly. With my own anecdotal data... I have zero issues with "vampire drain" in my 2018 Bolt and would have zero anxiety leaving the thing at a trailhead for days or even weeks.

 

[Evoforce]

Sure... But it has to be extremely hot. But no drain due to its computer/mcu/etc.. I left my Bolt unplugged for 2.5 weeks in a 90+degreeF garage...zero drain. Same percentage/GOM range as when I left. Even when I powered on the car and drive...range did not drop unexpectedly. With my own anecdotal data... I have zero issues with "vampire drain" in my 2018 Bolt and would have zero anxiety leaving the thing at a trailhead for days or even weeks.

I agree the Bolt in most cases has less, but over 100 degrees the Bolt will protect its battery by activating the cooling system. The engineer in me resists the term vampire drain or phantom drain and a couple others, because it is a known maintenance drain on the battery.
I suppose I will someday have to accept it, as it is catching on, kinda like someone saying they have a bricked battery...