Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[zoomer0056]

Also, plenty of everyday correct driving in Europe where you need to activate a turn signal with the wheel turned at some arbitrary angle, essentially preventing muscle memory for it becoming a thing.

Just saw this about S3XY buttons. Look at the reply from the vendor. Where's a good position to place the buttons?
Post in thread 'S3XY Buttons on Palladium Model X, First Experiences' S3XY Buttons on Palladium Model X, First Experiences

 

[Knightshade]

My Kona EV gives me very clear "What gear am I in" feedback via a very annoying reversing noise.

My view is that Tesla should use the old Boombox idea and allow you to set a reversing tune.

Tesla did allow customers selecting their own vehicle noises for pedestrian warnings originally.

They were required to recall that feature by the NHTSA because it technically violates federal safety laws to allow customers to pick their own sounds.... (and because technically that would allow you to pick NO sound by using an MP3 of silence)

So, no stalks may not have caused traffic accidents, lack of data notwithstanding. Well that's some top level praise!!

If the argument against stalk removal is about SAFETY then yes, it's literally the only relevant praise to point out it hasn't provable caused any safety problems at all.

If the argument is "I don't personally like changing how I do something" that's far more subjective--- the folks who were likewise upset about physical buttons on cell phones going away were in the same situation ~15 years ago.

You're wrong, you can change gears when moving at low speed (such as a parking manoeuvre).

You CAN (if under 5 mph)

But why would you? It'll always be safer and more accurate to come to a complete stop before changing vehicle direction in any sort of careful maneuver.

 

[afadeev]

But why would you? It'll always be safer and more accurate to come to a complete stop before changing vehicle direction in any sort of careful maneuver.

There is a use-case for "rocking" the car back and forth when stuck in mud/snow/sand. And also turning OFF traction control.
This is not a common problem unless you drive in mud/snow/sand, but maybe worthwhile for someone to review in case you find yourself in that environment in the future:

https://knowhow.napaonline.com/10-tips-on-how-to-get-your-car-unstuck-from-snow/

 

[LiamPope]

Tesla did allow customers selecting their own vehicle noises for pedestrian warnings originally.

They were required to recall that feature by the NHTSA because it technically violates federal safety laws to allow customers to pick their own sounds.... (and because technically that would allow you to pick NO sound by using an MP3 of silence)




If the argument against stalk removal is about SAFETY then yes, it's literally the only relevant praise to point out it hasn't provable caused any safety problems at all.

If the argument is "I don't personally like changing how I do something" that's far more subjective--- the folks who were likewise upset about physical buttons on cell phones going away were in the same situation ~15 years ago.





You CAN (if under 5 mph)

But why would you? It'll always be safer and more accurate to come to a complete stop before changing vehicle direction in any sort of careful maneuver.

The argument is simply that no stalks is worse. And there's no up side to balance it out. Safety is going a bit far, imho.

 

[Knightshade]

There is a use-case for "rocking" the car back and forth when stuck in mud/snow/sand. And also turning OFF traction control.
This is not a common problem unless you drive in mud/snow/sand, but maybe worthwhile for someone to review in case you find yourself in that environment in the future:

We already discussed that...like... 10 posts ago?

This should be EASIER to do without stalks, as toggling D/R with two fingers on the overhead buttons ought be quicker than manually moving the stalk up and down over and over for that purpose.

The argument is simply that no stalks is worse. And there's no up side to balance it out. Safety is going a bit far, imho.

Well, there's a cost upside. Teslas do keep getting less expensive- with simplifying manufacturing being a core reason why thus making the vehicles more accessible to more buyers- and that's literally the mission of the company.

But as I say "worse" is subjective when nobody can point to objective benefits of the stalks other than it's what they're used to-- see again the backlash when phones lost physical buttons.

Or heck- see the backlash you STILL hear from LOTS of people about even the earlier Tesla models removing so many physical buttons other cars have and moving to touchscreen controls- yet sales keep growing.

FWIW lest you think I favor every change Tesla makes or something- I don't personally like the yoke (without variable steering- which it doesn't have- if it did I'd reconsider)... and I find the removal of USS prior to getting vision to parity (or even close) to also be a dumb choice. But the stalk thing is nothingburger- once you get used to it you won't miss it- same as you don't miss not having a physical button for AC or whatever.

 

[gtgarner]

99.9% of all vehicles on the planet have turn signals on a stalk - Including TESLA drivers.

Tesla changes it to stalkless a stalkless turn signal.

People voice their displeasure.

Then it's stated that people shouldn't voice their displeasure - just suck it up and take whatever they give you.

Me- Never again. The primary way things change is a mass stands up and makes their voice heard. I don't mind being a mass of 1. Even if nothing changes I will be a mass of 1.

 

[Knightshade]

99.9% of all vehicles on the planet have turn signals on a stalk - Including TESLA drivers.

In 2007 99% of cell phones had physical keypads.

Apple changed it to a no-keypad design.

People voiced their displeasure.

Remind me how that one turned out though?

 

[gtgarner]

In 2007 99% of cell phones had physical keypads.

Apple changed it to a no-keypad design.

People voiced their displeasure.

Remind me how that one turned out though?

Nope. I'm still voicing my displeasure of the stalk situation. (stalkless)

Read my post. I'll quote it again. I'm voicing my displeasure even if nothing changes. I'm not trying to get anyone to agree with me.

It's my opinion that I'm going to reach for the turn signal when needed and it won't be there.
My apologies in advance to everyone around me at the time.

 

[Knightshade]

Nope. I'm still voicing my displeasure of the stalk.

Feel free. At no point did I object to anyone expressing a subjective opinion- everyone has a right to do so. I still have that one friend who refuses to consider buying a Tesla because it doesn't have physical climate control buttons-- some folks just have strong opinions on never changing how they do something.

I'm just pointing out it's common when someone changes an interface that's been around for decades there's pushback, but in the long run people learn new habits and life goes on.

Phone keyboards were the best/most recent example but there's plenty of others out there.

My objection was the folks screaming how it's some sorta safety hazard and then repeatedly being unable to provide a shred of evidence for the claim.

 

[zoomer0056]

Nope. I'm still voicing my displeasure of the stalk.

Wait ... I thought you liked the stalks. Just kidding, type-o for sure.
EDIT: I see you corrected it.

 

[gtgarner]

Feel free. At no point did I object to anyone expressing a subjective opinion- everyone has a right to do so. I still have that one friend who refuses to consider buying a Tesla because it doesn't have physical climate control buttons-- some folks just have strong opinions on never changing how they do something.

I'm just pointing out it's common when someone changes an interface that's been around for decades there's pushback, but in the long run people learn new habits and life goes on.

Phone keyboards were the best/most recent example but there's plenty of others out there.

My objection was the folks screaming how it's some sorta safety hazard and then repeatedly being unable to provide a shred of evidence for the claim.

It's my opinion that I'm going to reach for the turn signal when needed and it won't be there. If cut in on you without a turn signal - I hope you don't have to brake hard and cause an accident. I tried to be safe.

My apologies in advance to everyone around me at the time.

Possible Safety issue.

 

[zoomer0056]

If cut in on you without a turn signal - I hope you don't have to brake hard and cause an accident. I tried to be safe.

That's not trying to be safe. That's being irresponsible in a hypothetical. The events unfolding, to be safe, would be turn signal on, look around, make a move if it is safe.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So, no stalks may not have caused traffic accidents, lack of data notwithstanding. Well that's some top level praise!! Where do I sign up to have my stalks removed? I need some of this awesomeness!!

Also, plenty of everyday correct driving in Europe where you need to activate a turn signal with the wheel turned at some arbitrary angle, essentially preventing muscle memory for it becoming a thing.

Actually people used to the yoke say muscle memory is still developed, just that the reference point becomes the spun wheel instead of the steering column. Once this is developed, you don't have to look at the wheel to do the turn signals, even with it spun at an arbitrary angle.

The technique generally is to keep hands on same two positions on the wheel. In normal operation, use left hand for signals. When wheel is around 180 degree turned, the hands are swapped and the right hand is used to push the turn signal buttons. In this way a muscle memory can be developed, given the signal is in the same position relative to the hands.

This is opposed to a stalk where mid-turn signals are typically done with one hand off the wheel.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But touchscreen keypads were very easy to adapt to, requiring no fundamentally different operation than physical buttons, plus there were a tonne of user benefits along with it. Loosing stalks requires fundamentally different and less ergonomic operation, and there are no user benefit.

In the early phones there was little advantage to removing the keypad, given keypad slides out from the back of the phone (for example the original Android T-mobile G1 phone) so you don't lose screen real estate by keeping them.

The main advantage to removing them was reduced bulk and cost.

The complaints about the lack of a physical keypad is very similar to here, about the lack of haptic feedback, inability to build a muscle memory, and in the early examples with resistive touchscreens, they weren't very responsive either. Even with the better capacitive touchscreens, people generally are far more likely to mistype and typing speed was measurably slower (which is why autocorrect was so critical).

Instead the removal was driven by people figuring it wasn't as necessary as they thought it was.

People buying aftermarket yokes still have stalks!

That's a side effect of it being difficult to switch the whole steering column and wiring vs just the wheel for aftermarket vendors. I imagine when Highland is out in volume, there will be aftermarket yokes without stalk.

The fact they aren't even offering optional yokes on Highland probably says something about demand.

I don't expect demand to be super high, but just that it's there. The yoke probably doesn't save Tesla production costs (instead may cost Tesla mode money to offer as an option), so there is less reason for Tesla to push it rather than stalkless.

 

[ks1972]

In 2007 99% of cell phones had physical keypads.

Apple changed it to a no-keypad design.

People voiced their displeasure.

Remind me how that one turned out though?

Phones are not 5000 lb moving objects capable of killing people. I guess most bicycles, planes and trains also don’t have stalks

 

[Knightshade]

Phones are not 5000 lb moving objects capable of killing people.

Can you cite any examples of a stalkless Tesla killing anyone due to lack of stalks, or are you again replying to a rational discussion with unfounded emotional theatrics?

We heard the same argument from many people when Tesla deleted the driver dash cluster in the original Model 3-- and turns out it's fine.

 

[ph0ton]

In 2007 99% of cell phones had physical keypads.

Apple changed it to a no-keypad design.

People voiced their displeasure.

Remind me how that one turned out though?

You keep bringing this up as if there is no examples of missteps in innovation, or that a screen based gear selector is somehow giving you a greater latitude in design as touchscreens enable. A more analogous example is the magic mouse.

 

[gtgarner]

That's not trying to be safe. That's being irresponsible in a hypothetical. The events unfolding, to be safe, would be turn signal on, look around, make a move if it is safe.

It's not hypothetical at all. I did it in a Model S test drive already. unintentionally

Road ended - I had to change lanes quickly -went for the stalk - not there. Didn't have time to figure it out.

Tesla test driver said the same thing happens all of the time.

Not hypothetical.

 

[zoomer0056]

You keep bringing this up as if there is no examples of missteps in innovation, or that a screen based gear selector is somehow giving you a greater latitude in design as touchscreens enable. A more analogous example is the magic mouse.

Point taken. But I quit witching that video when they cited a Reddit post.

 

[ph0ton]

Point taken. But I quit witching that video when they cited a Reddit post.

Some people love it! Maybe we'll all be using magic mice in 10 years