Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[uscbucsfan]

I did not have this in the new MS as it was a demo drive at an EV event
View attachment 994380

The MS had rhe latest wheel that seems to be where we are going, slight rectangular standard wheel
View attachment 994382

Best of both worlds with hand coverage all around, but also having rhe smaller profile better view out front

Change is good

The bottom is in the Cybertruck, not in a MS/X. As of now, there are no indications that the CT wheel will go to the S/X, but it could.

 

[kpanda17]

Fair, must have been a mirage
My hands were on this

 

[uscbucsfan]

Fair, must have been a mirage
My hands were on this
View attachment 994388

Right, that's the wheel for the S/X.

There would be hundreds of pictures if Tesla put the CT wheel in an S/X. The main reason I don't see it ever coming to the S/X is that it would block more of the screen than the wheel does.

 

[kpanda17]

btw
Recently had a P100D X for a few days whereas I am in 2023 3Ys always and did not like the old school UX of the old X
My brain has completely synced with the latest Tesla minimalist design found in CT, 3 and Y
My brain had no need for the 2nd display

 

[EatsShoots]

I did not have this in the new MS as it was a demo drive at an EV event
View attachment 994380

The MS had rhe latest wheel that seems to be where we are going, slight rectangular standard wheel
View attachment 994382

Best of both worlds with hand coverage all around, but also having rhe smaller profile better view out front

Change is good

Next revision they will make it a circle.

 

[X Fan]

Did you get a yoke or a round wheel? I also have no problems with buttons on my yoke 2022 MSLR.

Round. I also like center screen change of drive choices

 

[stopcrazypp]

Apparently it was even an outdated 2010 controller they were using.

Submarine tragedy raises questions about cheap game controller, netizens react

While the disappearance of the OceanGate submarine made global headlines, the fate of the affordable gaming controller has become a subject of intense scrutiny. However, it's crucial to note that no conclusive evidence exists linking the controller to the sinking. As the controller sank with the...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Maybe no evidence in that last mission but I thought I read in a prior one they had issues with controller. The used a 14 year old wireless $30 controller. It's really hard to believe that popped into someone's mind as a good idea.

If it works and they have a backup (it appears the screen is a touch screen so the controller is just a convenience feature), then it's not really an issue. Older devices actually may be more reliable given they are built to larger tolerances with more material, while more modern devices are build with small tolerances to allow for heavy cost cutting. I have a dirt cheap older keyboard I use daily that is now 15 years old and it's running just fine, while I know of people with there are newer ones that start having bad keys in a few years.

 

[whitex]

I’ve driven a new MS no stalks and it was a non issue
Except for roundabouts, a slight challenge, but with practice I would have gotten that mastered

Remember every change in life comes with challenges and then we’re good

I find it rather interesting that most Tesla yoke arguments fall into “I hate it” or “I learned to live with it” categories. Nobody seems to have come up with a convincing argument why Tesla yoke is overall better for a consumer car than a standard stalked steering wheel. Outside of “it doesn’t block my view of the instrument cluster when pointed straight” there is nothing the yoke gives you that a regular steering wheel does not.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I find it rather interesting that most Tesla yoke arguments fall into “I hate it” or “I learned to live with it” categories. Nobody seems to have come up with a convincing argument why Tesla yoke is overall better for a consumer car than a standard stalked steering wheel. Outside of “it doesn’t block my view of the instrument cluster when pointed straight” there is nothing the yoke gives you that a regular steering wheel does not.

You literally pointed out its major advantage (also why some people who add an aftermarket screen to the Model 3/Y opt for a yoke). The other advantage is it looks cool (and that is not a worthless feature given styling is a huge differentiator in cars).

Again, the idea of the yoke is not "wrong", just Tesla rushed to release one until the tech was ready for the ideal one (basically what Lexus has with variable steering ratio).

There are also other features/complaints separate from the yoke (for example you can have a yoke with stalks, or a round wheel without stalks; same deal with center horn vs button).

 

[whitex]

You literally pointed out its major advantage (also why some people who add an aftermarket screen to the Model 3/Y opt for a yoke). The other advantage is it looks cool (and that is not a worthless feature given styling is a huge differentiator in cars).

Again, the idea of the yoke is not "wrong", just Tesla rushed to release one until the tech was ready for the ideal one (basically what Lexus has with variable steering ratio).

There are also other features/complaints separate from the yoke (for example you can have a yoke with stalks, or a round wheel without stalks; same deal with center horn vs button).

Unobstructed view of the instrument cluster while pointing straight is the only advantage, so I guess by definition is the main advantage (also the biggest and the smallest advantage). This said however, regular steering wheel has a better solution for that, a Heads-Up Display (HUD). That is unobstructed all the time, even when the wheel is not pointing straight.

As for looking cool, it's relative. Some people think this looks cool, would you want it? Would you want it in a front end collision?

How about some people thinking a pink car with eyelashes, shag carpeting and fuzzy dice hanging off the mirror is cool, should all Teslas come this way?

As for yoke with stalks, that doesn't work, since when the yoke is turned there is no good way for your hand to find the stalk (no wheel to slide the hand down to 9am position to access turn signals for example). The lack of center horn on Tesla yoke is just proof they did not think it through at all. Elon had a brain-fart, so Tesla shipped it. They realized almost nobody wants it (as an option it would probably about the same a take rate as shag carpeting interior - only those who think it's cool). The rounded yoke is a desperate attempt to recover some customers (to me it's actually the worst of both worlds as hands are no longer forced to be in the same position to access touch controls without looking). IMO Tesla priced the yoke at $2,000 so that they can move the yoked inventory by trying to tell people they will throw in a $2,000 option. Additionally the take rate is probably so abysmal, it's not worth modifying/maintaining production process to even support it, therefore it's a service center retrofit.

As for your argument that Tesla yoke sucks but others could be made well and actually work, of course. This discussion is about Tesla yoke, not all possible yokes. As a side note, I saw a concept review video of the Toyota/Lexus yoke - it was drive-by-wire and it still needed a lot of work. There was a noticeable delay between turning the yoke and the wheels turning. The driver was allowed to turn the yoke fast left-right-left-right but the front wheels could not keep up so the reviewer actually managed to capture on video a point in time where the yoke was turned left and wheels turned right. He was able to drive the car around, but I would not want such drive-by-wire in my car, too much possibilities for driver-induced-oscillations and generally imprecise steering. Might work for large luxury cruisers which handle like a boat anyways.

 

[zoomer0056]

The other advantage is it looks cool (and that is not a worthless feature given styling is a huge differentiator in cars).

That's a fact. Just look at all the threads from people about how their new wheels look.

 

[kpanda17]

That's a fact. Just look at all the threads from people about how their new wheels look.

Agreed
“Know the 21 or 22 inch wheels have a hit on range, but love the look UG”
Not always about utility

 

[addictd2wasabi]

I’ve driven a new MS no stalks and it was a non issue
Except for roundabouts, a slight challenge, but with practice I would have gotten that mastered

Remember every change in life comes with challenges and then we’re good

I remember the real keyboard on my blackberry and now I am using dictation more and more on my iPhone
We handle change

VW just admitted they are not competitive
Tesla is for they cost cut everywhere that is optional
No stalks, but we get ventilated seats
I like the change

In principle, I agree with change for the better. Benefit's are debatable. Elon said in an interview that stalk is annoying. I think AI selecting wrong gear would be annoying. I'm selling our BMW because the frustration has built over 2yrs with bluetooth and apple car play not being seamless. I can never find the menu when I have to because it's hidden somewhere and when I do, it doesn't always connect. Small frustrations can build over time.

The blackberry keyboard is still the best. I'd do a lot of email on the blackberry. I don't use the iphone email or chat like some. Fingers to pudgey. Apps is why I buy the phone You can never have everything so it'll come down to what the person want's to live and what they do not want to live with

Don't get me wrong, I love the tesla tech and what they've done to change my baseline of the driving experience. Maybe I'm old and just want things to be simple and reliable . I'd say these are early adopter features - the guinea pigs Cool for some.

At best, I'm hoping some tech person is testing whether the old stalks can be integrated give there maybe some modularity with Tesla's design (hint hint ... ). Maybe it'll take a larger advancement in driving experience before people think the trade off is worth it

Also does anyone know where I can read about the accountability for AI driven features? eg accident due to Auto gear selection?

 

[BigNick]

Unobstructed view of the instrument cluster while pointing straight is the only advantage, so I guess by definition is the main advantage (also the biggest and the smallest advantage). This said however, regular steering wheel has a better solution for that, a Heads-Up Display (HUD). That is unobstructed all the time, even when the wheel is not pointing straight.

As for looking cool, it's relative. Some people think this looks cool, would you want it? Would you want it in a front end collision?
View attachment 994564
How about some people thinking a pink car with eyelashes, shag carpeting and fuzzy dice hanging off the mirror is cool, should all Teslas come this way?

As for yoke with stalks, that doesn't work, since when the yoke is turned there is no good way for your hand to find the stalk (no wheel to slide the hand down to 9am position to access turn signals for example). The lack of center horn on Tesla yoke is just proof they did not think it through at all. Elon had a brain-fart, so Tesla shipped it. They realized almost nobody wants it (as an option it would probably about the same a take rate as shag carpeting interior - only those who think it's cool). The rounded yoke is a desperate attempt to recover some customers (to me it's actually the worst of both worlds as hands are no longer forced to be in the same position to access touch controls without looking). IMO Tesla priced the yoke at $2,000 so that they can move the yoked inventory by trying to tell people they will throw in a $2,000 option. Additionally the take rate is probably so abysmal, it's not worth modifying/maintaining production process to even support it, therefore it's a service center retrofit.

As for your argument that Tesla yoke sucks but others could be made well and actually work, of course. This discussion is about Tesla yoke, not all possible yokes. As a side note, I saw a concept review video of the Toyota/Lexus yoke - it was drive-by-wire and it still needed a lot of work. There was a noticeable delay between turning the yoke and the wheels turning. The driver was allowed to turn the yoke fast left-right-left-right but the front wheels could not keep up so the reviewer actually managed to capture on video a point in time where the yoke was turned left and wheels turned right. He was able to drive the car around, but I would not want such drive-by-wire in my car, too much possibilities for driver-induced-oscillations and generally imprecise steering. Might work for large luxury cruisers which handle like a boat anyways.

IMO the yoke exists because Elon watched Knight Rider as a tween/teen and thought it was cool, so he put it into production.

And any drive-by-wire system that can't handle user inputs in real-time = dangerous AF.

Even a tenth of a second delay is bad. If a brake-by-wire system was on a car traveling at Autobahn speeds and it took 0.1 seconds between the driver stepping on the brake pedal and actual brake application, you're looking at basically a full car length. (17.6 feet at 120 MPH, or 8.8 feet at 60 MPH and that's added to the driver's own reaction time). No thanks.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

picked up my 2023 Model X a week ago. Would LOVE someone to sell me OEM Tesla stalks that I could put on it.

anyone? anyone?

 

[stopcrazypp]

IMO the yoke exists because Elon watched Knight Rider as a tween/teen and thought it was cool, so he put it into production.

And any drive-by-wire system that can't handle user inputs in real-time = dangerous AF.

Even a tenth of a second delay is bad. If a brake-by-wire system was on a car traveling at Autobahn speeds and it took 0.1 seconds between the driver stepping on the brake pedal and actual brake application, you're looking at basically a full car length. (17.6 feet at 120 MPH, or 8.8 feet at 60 MPH and that's added to the driver's own reaction time). No thanks.

You have the order of magnitude completely wrong though. For example a simple wired gaming mouse can have a latency of under 3 ms. Even a Bluetooth wireless one is on the order of 10ms.

Our Mouse Control Tests: Click Latency

Even in the world of technology, where messages are sent around the world in a matter of seconds, nothing is instantaneous. With PC gaming, each piece of equipment introduces some sort of delay, called latency or lag.

www.rtings.com

100 ms is like the latency going through an Internet connection, which is basically not going to happen with drive by wire if they develop it for a critical system like braking.

Also if comparing to a electro-mechanical instead of a electro-hydraulic system, the former may actually have less latency because electrical systems can have less latency than a fluid system with valves.

 

[kilpatds]

picked up my 2023 Model X a week ago. Would LOVE someone to sell me OEM Tesla stalks that I could put on it.

anyone? anyone?

Not yet, but

(from the s3xy-buttons people. my completely unaffiliated&uninformed guess would be mid/late next year)

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Not yet, but

(from the s3xy-buttons people. my completely unaffiliated&uninformed guess would be mid/late next year)

Looks good to me! Shut up and take my money!

 

[BigNick]

You have the order of magnitude completely wrong though. For example a simple wired gaming mouse can have a latency of under 3 ms. Even a Bluetooth wireless one is on the order of 10ms.

Our Mouse Control Tests: Click Latency

Even in the world of technology, where messages are sent around the world in a matter of seconds, nothing is instantaneous. With PC gaming, each piece of equipment introduces some sort of delay, called latency or lag.

www.rtings.com

100 ms is like the latency going through an Internet connection, which is basically not going to happen with drive by wire if they develop it for a critical system like braking.

Also if comparing to a electro-mechanical instead of a electro-hydraulic system, the former may actually have less latency because electrical systems can have less latency than a fluid system with valves.

I was thinking 0.1s/100ms worst-case scenario. Is it possible a large number of similar systems in close proximity could cause interference, or something along those lines where the data must "retry" or be sent multiple times?

AFAIK all Tesla braking is still electro-hydraulic and not brake-by-wire (yet.) If it were to become so in the future, I would hope for redundancy in the system (NHTSA might mandate it?)

 

[stopcrazypp]

I was thinking 0.1s/100ms worst-case scenario. Is it possible a large number of similar systems in close proximity could cause interference, or something along those lines where the data must "retry" or be sent multiple times?

They can use shielded cables if necessary, but it's going to be a dedicated wired connection, so I'm not sure how there would be much interference if at all. There haven't been similar issues reported for example for accelerator by wire, which has been used for a long time and with no perceptible increase in latency vs an ICE car with a throttle cable.

AFAIK all Tesla braking is still electro-hydraulic and not brake-by-wire (yet.) If it were to become so in the future, I would hope for redundancy in the system (NHTSA might mandate it?)

There are no production brake by wire cars yet as far as I know. The point about electro-hydraulic is that there is latency in hydraulic fluid and valves also. The electro-mechanical systems being suggested for brake by wire (where an electrical signal commands a motor to actuate the brake caliper, with no hydraulic step in between) can eliminate hydraulic latency, which can make such systems potentially have less latency than even a conventional hydraulic system.

Having a backup for electrical failures is the bigger concern vs latency.