Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[Midpack]

Fascinating how this “debate” goes on as if there’s a right or wrong answer for all. Or that most on either side would change their mind anyway. Some people prefer stalks, some prefer stalkless - imagine that.

 

[Destiny1701]

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Agreed.

I have a yoke in my 22’ M3 with stalks.
Perfect combo tbh. Easy for one handed yoke hold and gear shift. Can easily flick up, down, P without a thought and with eyes and body even turned around for reversing.
If this was a screen gear system, 2 hands needed and eyes at screen. Inefficient.

 

[whitex]

Fascinating how this “debate” goes on as if there’s a right or wrong answer for all. Or that most on either side would change their mind anyway. Some people prefer stalks, some prefer stalkless - imagine that.

What is fascinating to me is that Tesla keeps doubling down on this, while even in this thread it's apparent that this change did not gain them any customers, definitely lost some customers. So to me it seems that either:
a) profit from lost customers is significantly less than the savings from no stalks
b) Elon just cannot admit when he's wrong, so will keep doubling down on his own ideas, no matter their effect on the sales
c) Nobody at Tesla left who cares enough to try to quantify gains/loses from the change, especially if the numbers would contradict Elon

 

[Knightshade]

What is fascinating to me is that Tesla keeps doubling down on this, while even in this thread it's apparent that this change did not gain them any customers, definitely lost some customers. So to me it seems that either:
a) profit from lost customers is significantly less than the savings from no stalks
b) Elon just cannot admit when he's wrong, so will keep doubling down on his own ideas, no matter their effect on the sales
c) Nobody at Tesla left who cares enough to try to quantify gains/loses from the change, especially if the numbers would contradict Elon

The Y still has stalks, and is the majority of Tesla sales. It's ALSO plateauing, just as the stalkless models largely are. There's simply limits to how many people will buy a particular thing at/around any given price point.

I've yet to see evidence the stalks make any difference either way to sales overall, but it for sure saves money (and future maintenance)

 

[whitex]

I've yet to see evidence the stalks make any difference either way to sales overall, but it for sure saves money (and future maintenance)

We don't have aggregate numbers, but anecdotal evidence on this forum still show little to no examples of anyone buying a Tesla for the stalkless yoke, but definitely a few examples of people not buying a Tesla because of them (in my case alone, at least one Model S and one Model X). So given the sales are not production bound, we now know for a fact there were lost sales. The remaining question is whether or not the lost sales were significant, or perhaps completely outstripped by the cost savings of no stalks.

 

[ks1972]

We don't have aggregate numbers, but anecdotal evidence on this forum still show little to no examples of anyone buying a Tesla for the stalkless yoke, but definitely a few examples of people not buying a Tesla because of them (in my case alone, at least one Model S and one Model X). So given the sales are not production bound, we now know for a fact there were lost sales. The remaining question is whether or not the lost sales were significant, or perhaps completely outstripped by the cost savings of no stalks.

That’s really the main point here. Rather than improving quality of their cars and customer experience, they are making changes that nobody needs or cares about.
In last 30+ years of driving, not once have I thought my driving experience could be better if the car didn’t have stalks

 

[stopcrazypp]

We don't have aggregate numbers, but anecdotal evidence on this forum still show little to no examples of anyone buying a Tesla for the stalkless yoke, but definitely a few examples of people not buying a Tesla because of them (in my case alone, at least one Model S and one Model X). So given the sales are not production bound, we now know for a fact there were lost sales. The remaining question is whether or not the lost sales were significant, or perhaps completely outstripped by the cost savings of no stalks.

It's not that hard to find if you actually want to look. But people that dislike the yoke seem to refuse to acknowledge that people may like them.

Tesla does not offer Yoke Steering retrofit?

So I'm *this close* to purchasing an inventory Model S with the current discount going of $7500 (plus $1000 additional for using a referral.) Configured exactly the way I want except it has the round wheel and I would prefer the Yoke. I'm surprised to learn that while you can buy a Wheel...

teslamotorsclub.com

Munro Associates Review of 2024 Model 3

It is a Model 3, but the very first time it was referred to as the Highlander. Wait - isn’t ‘highland’ simply the latest update of the model 3 and dual motor is one of the options? (And isn’t a highlander a Toyota or a Scott from the highlands of Scottland?)

teslamotorsclub.com

The same search turned up Tesla has about 40% inventory of yoke, so presumably demand is not as close to zero has some indicate (no matter if you subscribe to the idea they build inventory of options people want or don't want).

Wiki - Model S Delivery Update

Let's bring this back to MS deliveries and not politics and he said/she said (they said) on what Elon has accomplished. Didn't come here to argue or read about the science behind vaccinations or trans rights. FIFY Plaid Lives Matter Too...

teslamotorsclub.com

This is not to say the yoke in the S/X can't be improved (in fact Model 3 Highland has the most requested: being making the buttons physical buttons, and also the center horn button), but I don't think the stalkless part is as big a deal as some people make it out to be.

The analysis is also complicated but the mix of requests for stalked yoke (common aftermarket mod) and stalkless round steering wheel.

As for declining S/X sales, you can't make a claim either way on the cause. After all, with heavy cannibalization by Model 3/Y, the end of the whole used car craze from a few years ago, plus much more non-Tesla competition, lower sales is expected.

Looking at it as a sanity check, although sales have not recovered to 2018 levels (which is transition period to Model 3), it hasn't been too bad in these last couple of years post-yoke.

Tesla Production And Deliveries Graphed Through Q4 2023

During the fourth quarter of 2023, Tesla achieved new quarterly records of global electric vehicle production and sales.

www.google.com

 

[stopcrazypp]

That’s really the main point here. Rather than improving quality of their cars and customer experience, they are making changes that nobody needs or cares about.
In last 30+ years of driving, not once have I thought my driving experience could be better if the car didn’t have stalks

Well the argument is that it lowers cost to spend elsewhere. For example the Highland got ventilated seats, ambient lighting, and a rear screen.

 

[primedive]

Well the argument is that it lowers cost to spend elsewhere. For example the Highland got ventilated seats, ambient lighting, and a rear screen.

I would sincerely love to delete that rear screen…

 

[Midpack]

We don't have aggregate numbers, but anecdotal evidence on this forum still show little to no examples of anyone buying a Tesla for the stalkless yoke, but definitely a few examples of people not buying a Tesla because of them (in my case alone, at least one Model S and one Model X). So given the sales are not production bound, we now know for a fact there were lost sales. The remaining question is whether or not the lost sales were significant, or perhaps completely outstripped by the cost savings of no stalks.

Anecdotal evidence, hilarious. As if people who agree post just as often as those who don't. Your specific case is statistically trivial...

And you don't have concrete evidence of lost sales either. EV sales are down across the board, so a decline in the sales of any make/model would have to be normalized. But go ahead and massage what you read to suit your agenda.

This thread has been a joke since about page 3...

 

[whitex]

The same search turned up Tesla has about 40% inventory of yoke, so presumably demand is not as close to zero has some indicate (no matter if you subscribe to the idea they build inventory of options people want or don't want).

Either are yokes, one is just rounded - still no stalks, still same controls IMO the rounded yoke is the worst of two worlds, but my guess is that majority of people chose it as it's the closest to traditional controls, without realizing until people get the car that it's lacking stalks.

This is not to say the yoke in the S/X can't be improved (in fact Model 3 Highland has the most requested: being making the buttons physical buttons, and also the center horn button), but I don't think the stalkless part is as big a deal as some people make it out to be.

Exactly, not s big deal is the best case scenario, or as others put it "get used to it" or "learn to live with it". To me it seems it's either not a big deal, or a detractor. Preference of yoke vs. rounded yoke may partially stem from the fact that the touch controls work even worse when your hands are not forced by the yoke to be in the specific points. I'm sure there are people who think it's cool and actually want it too, just that we don't see many examples of people saying they didn't buy a car because all they had were traditional steering wheel controls (anyone chose a Tesla over other brands because the other brand had no yoke?).

As for your analysis, you are right, we cannot draw a solid conclusion based on just sales numbers as they are affected by other factors. My only assumption was that Tesla sales are not production bound, based on the fact that there are plenty of inventory cars. As I said earlier, it is possible that the sales lost due to stalkless yoke are dwarfed by the savings, therefore a good business decision. As you mentioned, Tesla is changing the yoke, like adding horn back to the middle, making physical buttons. I'd be curious what numbers drove those decisions. Perhaps in time the yoke will turn back into a traditional steering wheel, one step at a time - who knows.

 

[whitex]

Anecdotal evidence, hilarious. As if people who agree post just as often as those who don't. Your specific case is statistically trivial...

And you don't have concrete evidence of lost sales either. EV sales are down across the board, so a decline in the sales of any make/model would have to be normalized. But go ahead and massage what you read to suit your agenda.

This thread has been a joke since about page 3...

You obviously missed what I said. To prove there has been at least one lost car sale all you need is anecdotal evidence - I can tell you Tesla lost 2 car sales for certain as I would have bought at least one more S and X. I never claimed the lost a lot, because I have no data to support it.

 

[EfficientWatts]

I already said it in this thread, but it will be hard to plot an overall lost sales due to stalkless controls due to it being largely confined to the S and X at first. However with the rollout of the highland 3 finally underway worldwide we'll get a better sense of things over the next few quarters. Of course we have the lack of tax credit (for US at least) and general market sentiments to contend with that would make it difficult to say it is just because of the lack of stalks.

I think it would be more obvious with the equivalent refresh for the model y in the us due to the tax credit, or maybe they'll change the model 3 to qualify once again, which would make comparison easier.

I would love it though if they just took the Tesla semi steering wheel and offer it as an option on the 3 (the semi one looks similar to the refresh, except that it has stalks).

 

[whitex]

I already said it in this thread, but it will be hard to plot an overall lost sales due to stalkless controls due to it being largely confined to the S and X at first. However with the rollout of the highland 3 finally underway worldwide we'll get a better sense of things over the next few quarters. Of course we have the lack of tax credit (for US at least) and general market sentiments to contend with that would make it difficult to say it is just because of the lack of stalks.

I think it would be more obvious with the equivalent refresh for the model y in the us due to the tax credit, or maybe they'll change the model 3 to qualify once again, which would make comparison easier.

I would love it though if they just took the Tesla semi steering wheel and offer it as an option on the 3 (the semi one looks similar to the refresh, except that it has stalks).

There is one way Tesla could untangle it, offer the stalked steering wheel as an option watch the volumes of orders. They could even include the touch buttons as well, then have a driver profile setting of which one you want to use, then monitor the telemetry how many people choose which one. Of course, that would not be free for Tesla.

 

[snorp]

Tesla definitely lost a MX sale for my wife and a M3 sale for my teenage daughter due to no stalks. Daughter will get a used M3. I doubt Tesla cares and I don’t really either now that MB has supercharger access. Now just need MB to license Tesla’s autopilot tech.

 

[smogne41]

The sales ratio of 3/Y will be an interesting metric to watch, as we will have data from Y and 3 stalked, and Y stalked 3 no stalks. This will probably give a more clear picture on any impact than the absolute numbers.

 

[Knightshade]

a completely unsupported insinuation that she was inebriated?
Congratulations - you just scored points with the Elon Fanboy Club!

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT!

Chao, 50, had a blood alcohol concentration of 0.233. The legal limit to drive in Texas is 0.08.

Angela Chao's blood alcohol content nearly 3x legal limit before her fatal drive into pond

Toxicology report shows Angela Chao, sister-in-law of Sen. Mitch McConnell, was drunk when she backed her Tesla into a pond and drowned.

www.usatoday.com

For context on just HOW inebriated 0.23 is:

Blood Alcohol Content

Everything you need to know about blood alcohol content (BAC).

www.utoledo.edu

First this tells us with a body weight of 120, 140, or 160 lbs that's 6-8 drinks in an hour for that BAC.

Second, they describe that range as
.20-.24% Dazed and confused – Gross disorientation to time and place, increased nausea and vomiting, may need assistance to stand or walk, impervious to pain, blackout likely


But sure... it was the lack of stalks.... (which the only report in the thread on the vehicle year suggests she didn't actually lack)

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I mean, it is kinda funny that we can't tell the difference between a sober person trying to use Tesla's gearshift/door handles vs. someone who is so drunk they don't even think to get out of the sinking car after driving into a pond.

 

[EfficientWatts]

The sales ratio of 3/Y will be an interesting metric to watch, as we will have data from Y and 3 stalked, and Y stalked 3 no stalks. This will probably give a more clear picture on any impact than the absolute numbers.

At least for the US the $7500 tax credit being available just for the Y which will skew things, so I'm not sure how much we can rely on such a ratio. However maybe data from other regions will be able to shed light on this (where highland has been out in greater volume anyways).

 

[biscottigelato]

Apple brought scissor keyboard and function keys back. Tesla needs to bring the stalk back. Yoke/Non-yoke can stay as an option for the S & X. Once Tesla is FSD ready and takes all liability, the stalk can go along with the steering wheel at the same time. Its that simple.