Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[primedive]

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT!

Angela Chao's blood alcohol content nearly 3x legal limit before her fatal drive into pond

Toxicology report shows Angela Chao, sister-in-law of Sen. Mitch McConnell, was drunk when she backed her Tesla into a pond and drowned.

www.usatoday.com

For context on just HOW inebriated 0.23 is:

Blood Alcohol Content

Everything you need to know about blood alcohol content (BAC).

www.utoledo.edu

First this tells us with a body weight of 120, 140, or 160 lbs that's 6-8 drinks in an hour for that BAC.

Second, they describe that range as
.20-.24% Dazed and confused – Gross disorientation to time and place, increased nausea and vomiting, may need assistance to stand or walk, impervious to pain, blackout likely


But sure... it was the lack of stalks.... (which the only report in the thread on the vehicle year suggests she didn't actually lack)

This whole scenario still makes me nervous — it should not be this hard to escape a vehicle. If you get a concussion it would be similar to being inebriated. There could be many different scenarios, including this one, where you have to escape and the vehicle has become a death trap.

 

[Knightshade]

This whole scenario still makes me nervous — it should not be this hard to escape a vehicle.

It's not.

Unless you are blackout drunk- in which case you ought not be IN the vehicle.

If you get a concussion it would be similar to being inebriated. There could be many different scenarios, including this one, where you have to escape and the vehicle has become a death trap.

The windows roll down, there's an electronic door release, and there's also a totally mechanical door release.

She had at least 3 ways to get out, but was too drunk to use them- just as she was too drunk to put the vehicle in the right gear to start with- or check she had selected the wrong gear before applying acceleration.


Stop blaming the vehicle for a drunk driver.

 

[primedive]

It's not.

Unless you are blackout drunk- in which case you ought not be IN the vehicle.




The windows roll down, there's an electronic door release, and there's also a totally mechanical door release.

She had at least 3 ways to get out, but was too drunk to use them- just as she was too drunk to put the vehicle in the right gear to start with- or check she had selected the wrong gear before applying acceleration.


Stop blaming the vehicle for a drunk driver.

Agreed on staying out of the vehicle if blackout drunk, but it didn't seem that easy for Hammond:

The windows shorted out instantly and opening the doors only worked after he had already "drowned", at least the first time, but in real life, we don't get second chances. Still seems like a serious safety issue to me. Anyway there's two other threads about it so I'll continue the discussions there, and we can get back to debating stalks over here.

 

[Destiny1701]

Wonder if EV sales dropping due to lack of obscelescence. The cars just keep on driving well and don’t truly necessitate moving to a newer model due to continuous software updates.

Essentially making EV’s run and last so well has effectively created a longer lifespan scenario and less turnover.

 

[Knightshade]

Agreed on staying out of the vehicle if blackout drunk, but it didn't seem that easy for Hammond:

The windows shorted out instantly and opening the doors only worked after he had already "drowned", at least the first time, but in real life, we don't get second chances. Still seems like a serious safety issue to me. Anyway there's two other threads about it so I'll continue the discussions there, and we can get back to debating stalks over here.

The first time he didn't try the doors- at all- until already under the water. The second time he tried them just after going into the water and they opened just fine.

Good thing he wasn't drunk I guess.


Regardless, the door pressure thing is the same in any car, nothing special about Teslas there.... though I suspect they'd be more likely to still have working windows longer given some of the really deep water I've seen them drive through without issue.

 

[3sr+buyer]

The first time he didn't try the doors- at all- until already under the water. The second time he tried them just after going into the water and they opened just fine.

Good thing he wasn't drunk I guess.


Regardless, the door pressure thing is the same in any car, nothing special about Teslas there.... though I suspect they'd be more likely to still have working windows longer given some of the really deep water I've seen them drive through without issue.

Seems like a car with manual crank windows would be safer in this particular situation of falling into the water.

 

[whitex]

Seems like a car with manual crank windows would be safer in this particular situation of falling into the water.

An open-top convertible with no seatbelts for best water escape chances. Not great for other types of accidents though.

 

[Destiny1701]

An open-top convertible with no seatbelts for best water escape chances. Not great for other types of accidents though.

Or a standard issue mini axe or safety hammer clipped in the glovebox. Quick tap and shatters the glass. I know this may result in water pouring in for a moment until full and then move your ass.

It’s odd a safety hammer isn’t a standard item provided by manuf. designed for tempered glass.

 

[primedive]

Or a standard issue mini axe or safety hammer clipped in the glovebox. Quick tap and shatters the glass. I know this may result in water pouring in for a moment until full and then move your ass.

It’s odd a safety hammer isn’t a standard item provided by manuf. designed for tempered glass.

Doesn’t work with laminated glass though! Seems that you need a sawzall or cordless grinder for that. Also doesn’t the glove box become inaccessible if the power fails?

 

[dusty22]

I've thought about that when Tesla started using laminated glass side windows

Doesn’t work with laminated glass though! Seems that you need a sawzall or cordless grinder for that. Also doesn’t the glove box become inaccessible if the power fails?

I thought about that when Tesla started using laminated glass in the side windows. It was my undrstading that manufacturers used single pane glass on side windows to enable rescuers to quickly extract trapped occupants at accident scenes. My rear windows are single pane which gives me some peace of mind.

 

[zoomer0056]

I've thought about that when Tesla started using laminated glass side windows


I thought about that when Tesla started using laminated glass in the side windows. It was my undrstading that manufacturers used single pane glass on side windows to enable rescuers to quickly extract trapped occupants at accident scenes. My rear windows are single pane which gives me some peace of mind.

Yeah, but ... does it matter if the car does or doesn't have stalks.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Or a standard issue mini axe or safety hammer clipped in the glovebox. Quick tap and shatters the glass. I know this may result in water pouring in for a moment until full and then move your ass.

It’s odd a safety hammer isn’t a standard item provided by manuf. designed for tempered glass.

Glass breaking tools seem to vary in effectiveness on tempered glass, and are ineffective on laminated glass (which has become somewhat common on side windows).

Vehicle Escape Tools

Don’t take chances in an emergency. Keep a car escape tool close at hand in your vehicle and make sure it will work on the type of window glass your car has.

www.aaa.com

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Research-Report-Vehicle-Escape-Tools.pdf

 

[zoomer0056]

Glass breaking tools seem to vary in effectiveness on tempered glass, and are ineffective on laminated glass (which has become somewhat common on side windows).

Vehicle Escape Tools

Don’t take chances in an emergency. Keep a car escape tool close at hand in your vehicle and make sure it will work on the type of window glass your car has.

www.aaa.com

https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Research-Report-Vehicle-Escape-Tools.pdf

Link no works. It goes to skimrrsources.com

 

[cybergates]

The lack of the gear selector stalk is not so bad but the left turn right turn stalk was still better to have. Not a deal breaker - can get used to it and still very happy with my model 3 highland compared to my previous model 3

 

[freeAgent]

It's not.

Unless you are blackout drunk- in which case you ought not be IN the vehicle.




The windows roll down, there's an electronic door release, and there's also a totally mechanical door release.

She had at least 3 ways to get out, but was too drunk to use them- just as she was too drunk to put the vehicle in the right gear to start with- or check she had selected the wrong gear before applying acceleration.


Stop blaming the vehicle for a drunk driver.

Almost instantaneously once a car falls into water, a door release is going to do no good. The pressure keeping the door closed is massive as the car sinks. You need to IMMEDIATELY roll your window down. I wouldn't even bother trying the door unless the water isn't deep enough to submerge the car anyway.

 

[mknmike]

The Y still has stalks, and is the majority of Tesla sales. It's ALSO plateauing, just as the stalkless models largely are. There's simply limits to how many people will buy a particular thing at/around any given price point.

I've yet to see evidence the stalks make any difference either way to sales overall, but it for sure saves money (and future maintenance)

I can confidently say that we would have bought a model Y instead of a 3 if buying today. However, when buying in 2023, my wife and son decided that the 3 was smoother than the Y (and I believe my son likes the 3 looks more), so they decided on the 3. Stalks were no question at all. I think I get used to technology more easily than my wife, and I also get flustered less easily than my wife. Driving a 2024 M3 in the crowded parking lot flustered me, so I'm confident my wife would have said "aw hell no." I did show her the 2024 and she didn't give it the time of day. We do want to be happy with our 2023, and we are. I feel very lucky to have purchased when we did. Perhaps some day it will be the "golden era of the M3" LOL. LFP, Stalks, good build quality.

I know that there's a contradictory element of my dialog just above. The 2024 M3 is notably smoother, and if the vehicle choice was made regarding what rides most smoothly, the 2024 M3 is a clear winner of all three mentioned.

I would argue that the shifter controls should be on the steering wheel instead of the touch screen or ceiling. I don't know that we need the microphone to have it's own button. Why did the right scroll wheel stop being a push-button for the microphone? And do the wipers need to be on the steering wheel? Maybe. I don't know. Perhaps they could have just made more room on the wheel for more buttons.

Someone mentioned somewhere (a video?) that real physical controls may become a european legislation.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Link no works. It goes to skimrrsources.com

You might have something in your browser doing that. Viewing page source shows links with addresses beginning with www.aaa.com/

 

[Timmo]

Indeed, to each his own.
This “old dog” learned to drive 50 years ago in a “three on the tree” ‘59 Impala, and I’ve owned everything from an 77 MGB to a 2015 GM 2500 pickup. Driven busses and trucks for pay. . .

When I picked up my X last January, I waved off any orientation, hopped in and drove off without a second thought.
Very intuitive in my estimation. First time I ever touched a yoke. I drove it 250 miles home in a snow storm without a hitch other than the obligatory forced I-70 bypass to US 6 on account of incompetent (overconfident? ill-equipped? ) semi drivers.

So I just went out to the garage, got in with the radio up and with my eyes closed put the car in drive, reverse, and back to park . . just to check if I could . . . Easy Peasy! ( I was careful not to press the accelerator )
Kind Regards

All cars are easy to drive on nice sunny days sans traffic. What counts for me is how a car drives on dark windy nights, in the rain, on dicey roads, in heavy traffic, etc., etc. I will only drive a car that I can operate using muscle memory without having to direct my limited attention to a screen, hunting for moving buttons, etc. That's my preference.

 

[SVMike]

All cars are easy to drive on nice sunny days sans traffic. What counts for me is how a car drives on dark windy nights, in the rain, on dicey roads, in heavy traffic, etc., etc. I will only drive a car that I can operate using muscle memory without having to direct my limited attention to a screen, hunting for moving buttons, etc. That's my preference.

What you say makes sense. But it also makes sense that if you bought a new car without stalks you'd intentionally limit yourself to driving on nice sunny days for the first week or two until you developed the muscle memory for the new layout, then you'd be good to go on a dark rainy night.
The problem is when you have a second potential driver who doesn't drive this car enough to develop the muscle memory.
When I drive my other car (not my M3) I constantly reach for the non-existent right hand stalk when doing a 3 point turn.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Almost instantaneously once a car falls into water, a door release is going to do no good. The pressure keeping the door closed is massive as the car sinks. You need to IMMEDIATELY roll your window down. I wouldn't even bother trying the door unless the water isn't deep enough to submerge the car anyway.

I have a feeling it would be a good thing if more people knew that you can probably escape through the windscreen in an MX by using your legs and feet...