Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[father_of_6]

But again- that's not what's happening. It's not "losing" a basic feature, the controls are just moved to the wheel instead of on stalks.

No, no, no. Didn't you read the thread title? This argument is *settled*. Removing the stalks is a fail.

 

[Knightshade]

No, no, no. Didn't you read the thread title? This argument is *settled*. Removing the stalks is a fail.

It's settled in that we know for sure the new 3 has no stalks.

The fail part is one of those "assuming facts not in evidence" mistakes however....Indeed the guy who made the original post didn't even seem to understand how parts of the system worked despite them existing for a couple years now on the S/X (being able to select gears with a non-working screen for example).... his concern for having to use your eyes to change gears is odd too since A) You should only be changing gears when stopped anyway and B) You should always visually verify the car shifted into the gear you think it did before moving anyway.

 

[ph0ton]

I hope someone brought this up but when your car gets stuck in the snow, it's already a gigantic pain in the ass to rock it out. You need to repeatedly switch gears, which is slow, and also repeatedly hit "slip start" while coordinating the gas and brakes.

Taking the gear selector off the wheel may create a delay that makes this maneuver impossible.

I know there are people who just won't drive their vehicle in the winter, and others who literally race as a hobby who might argue this is not important. For a mass-adoption vehicle, it needs to handle these 1% cases with ease like their ICE counterparts. If you want to say the cost savings will help adoption, it defeats the purpose if people don't feel in control and thus safe in these situations.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I hope someone brought this up but when your car gets stuck in the snow, it's already a gigantic pain in the ass to rock it out. You need to repeatedly switch gears, which is slow, and also repeatedly hit "slip start" while coordinating the gas and brakes.

Taking the gear selector off the wheel may create a delay that makes this maneuver impossible.

I know there are people who just won't drive their vehicle in the winter, and others who literally race as a hobby who might argue this is not important. For a mass-adoption vehicle, it needs to handle these 1% cases with ease like their ICE counterparts. If you want to say the cost savings will help adoption, it defeats the purpose if people don't feel in control and thus safe in these situations.

Was discussed back when Model S launched with yoke. Basically that gist I get is there are many cars where it's hard to rock back and forth (stick shift cars, cars with console button gear selectors), so that concern is largely irrelevant.
Honest review of the wheel

Tesla can always add a software rocking mode if necessary and it'll probably be many times more effective than even someone manually rocking themselves with a stalk (especially if it can take wheel slip and traction detection into account).

 

[father_of_6]

Basically that gist I get is there are many cars where it's hard to rock back and forth (stick shift cars, cars with console button gear selectors), so that concern is largely irrelevant.

I mean... what you're saying here is essentially "there are other cars that suck at shifting quickly, so it's okay if Tesla switches to a similarly sucky method for shifting. They can (but likely won't) make a new software feature for this instead."

I'm still waiting for the software update that provides good manual windshield wiper controls.

Truly, why do we even need a wheel? I vote they get rid of the wheel altogether and use the cabin camera to read the driver's hand movements and gestures. You'll just pretend like you're turning a wheel and interacting with stalks and the software will interpret and respond accordingly. Tesla AirWheel™.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I mean... what you're saying here is essentially "there are other cars that suck at shifting quickly, so it's okay if Tesla switches to a similarly sucky method for shifting. They can (but likely won't) make a new software feature for this instead."

I'm still waiting for the software update that provides good manual windshield wiper controls.

Truly, why do we even need a wheel? I vote they get rid of the wheel altogether and use the cabin camera to read the driver's hand movements and gestures. You'll just pretend like you're turning a wheel and interacting with stalks and the software will interpret and respond accordingly. Tesla AirWheel™.

Tesla has a wheel because it's required by federal law (same deal with mirrors). There is a push for cars to get exemptions to the requirements, but so far it's only for extremely low volume (2500 vehicles per year).
Cruise “just days away” from approval to mass-produce Origin robotaxi without steering wheels

If NHTSA finally allows cars without steering wheels in mass, I'm actually fairly certain Tesla may try different controls.

I only mention the software option as a side point, because it gives Tesla an "out" if it turns out to be a deal breaking issue (which I'm arguing it's not in this case, given there are many mass market cars with different gear selection interfaces than stalks which does worse in that application).

 

[ks1972]

It's settled in that we know for sure the new 3 has no stalks.

The fail part is one of those "assuming facts not in evidence" mistakes however....Indeed the guy who made the original post didn't even seem to understand how parts of the system worked despite them existing for a couple years now on the S/X (being able to select gears with a non-working screen for example).... his concern for having to use your eyes to change gears is odd too since A) You should only be changing gears when stopped anyway and B) You should always visually verify the car shifted into the gear you think it did before moving anyway.

If you have stalks, you don’t need to “visually” verify anything. You are actually making a case as to why we need stalks.
Anyway, it’s a matter of personal choice, people will buy what they want. I for one won’t buy a car with gear selector on screen. I find it curious that they made steering wheel a standard option on S, all 20 inventory model S in Atlanta area are the ones with yoke.
In a couple of years when a number of cars from other manufacturers can use Tesla chargers, it will be much easier to switch. Right now, I’m happy with my 2020 S with FUSC and free connectivity and my M3P with stalks

 

[Knightshade]

If you have stalks, you don’t need to “visually” verify anything.

Of course you do.

When people don't is how they run into things because they "thought" they shifted into reverse when they really were still in drive (or vice versa)

That's why there is a visual gear indicator on cars regardless of how you shift them.

So you visually can verify the right gear is engaged.

I hope someone brought this up but when your car gets stuck in the snow, it's already a gigantic pain in the ass to rock it out. You need to repeatedly switch gears, which is slow, and also repeatedly hit "slip start" while coordinating the gas and brakes.

Taking the gear selector off the wheel may create a delay that makes this maneuver impossible.

Again- there are physical gear select buttons as well-- if you just need to rock the car it's likely quicker to swap between R and D with those than operating the stalk would be.

 

[ks1972]

Of course you do.

When people don't is how they run into things because they "thought" they shifted into reverse when they really were still in drive (or vice versa)

That's why there is a visual gear indicator on cars regardless of how you shift them.

So you visually can verify the right gear is engaged.





Again- there are physical gear select buttons as well-- if you just need to rock the car it's likely quicker to swap between R and D with those than operating the stalk would be.

In 5 years of driving Tesla, I have never had to once check if I put the car in drive.

Even with physical gear selection buttons, you still have to take your eyes of the road, regardless of whether the car is stationary or not, we have children playing in our subdivision all the time, it can be catastrophic

 

[Knightshade]

In 5 years of driving Tesla, I have never had to once check if I put the car in drive.

If you wanna brag about driving unsafely that's kind of on you my dude.

Even with physical gear selection buttons, you still have to take your eyes of the road, regardless of whether the car is stationary or not, we have children playing in our subdivision all the time, it can be catastrophic

Can you explain how taking your eyes off the road in a stationary car can be "catastrophic"?

Heck you just told us you don't bother to check what gear you're in before moving from stationary- seems a lot more dangerous than what you're hand-wringing about.

 

[ks1972]

If you wanna brag about driving unsafely that's kind of on you my dude.




Can you explain how taking your eyes off the road in a stationary car can be "catastrophic"?

Heck you just told us you don't bother to check what gear you're in before moving from stationary- seems a lot more dangerous than what you're hand-wringing about.

You’re clueless, I’m done with this. Enjoy your stalkless car and I will enjoy mine with stalks.

 

[BlkDragon]

I'm on board with innovation but when it comes at the cost of safety that's where most of us would draw the line and to me that's the final point of this thread.

If you're out there by your lonesome and you encounter an issue with the stalklessness, the only person who's affected by the safety issue is you.

However cars are meant to be driven in situations where there are other cars AND people. Therefore this decision can and will kill other people when it is unclear to you and the other driver what you are doing.

So if you mean to signal left but you signal right that is a huge safety issue for everyone else including yourself.

The M3 needs more not less hardware for safety. They took away a lot as is, with the infrared and rain sensors. Therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with this design change because it directly impacts safety and clarity of signalling and driving intention.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm on board with innovation but when it comes at the cost of safety that's where most of us would draw the line and to me that's the final point of this thread.

You mean how 0 people have demonstrated there's been even a single safety problem from this change- and indeed for the shifting issue folks when asked can't even explain how it risks safety given the car is stationary when you shift it?

So if you mean to signal left but you signal right that is a huge safety issue for everyone else including yourself.

A tremendous # of people don't signal at all, even with stalks. A tremendous # of people still signal without stalks- as S/X show us, because there's still controls for that, in fact controls you have to move your hands less far from the wheel to use.

So again you appear to be insisting this is safety issue while being unable to support that claim.

The M3 needs more not less hardware for safety

GOOD NEWS!

The refreshed 3 has improved blind spot indicators near the mirrors. Thus making the stalkless version safer than the stalked one for lane changes.

 

[ks1972]

I'm on board with innovation but when it comes at the cost of safety that's where most of us would draw the line and to me that's the final point of this thread.

If you're out there by your lonesome and you encounter an issue with the stalklessness, the only person who's affected by the safety issue is you.

However cars are meant to be driven in situations where there are other cars AND people. Therefore this decision can and will kill other people when it is unclear to you and the other driver what you are doing.

So if you mean to signal left but you signal right that is a huge safety issue for everyone else including yourself.

The M3 needs more not less hardware for safety. They took away a lot as is, with the infrared and rain sensors. Therefore I wholeheartedly disagree with this design change because it directly impacts safety and clarity of signalling and driving intention.

The problem with Tesla is that the guy making these decisions is emotionally making these decisions.

Just look at TeslaVision sh!tshow, people pay thousands for autopark and summon and the crap hasn’t worked in more than an year. My car is always telling me I’m parked well over a curb

And if yoke was such a great innovation, how come wheel is default option on S. If you look at inventory cars, only yoke model S are available

 

[ph0ton]

You mean how 0 people have demonstrated there's been even a single safety problem from this change- and indeed for the shifting issue folks when asked can't even explain how it risks safety given the car is stationary when you shift it?

Come on dude. You can disagree that it's slower to select gears with a button press above your head or on the screen than a flick next to the steering wheel, but being stuck in snow is definitely a safety risk. I've had to rock my car out of snow due to drifts when there is oncoming traffic. It's rare, but removing the stalk does nothing but make the scenario more dangerous... without adding any value to the car.

Likewise, I have a much easier time typing in my physical keyboard than typing in my phone. The physical feedback allows me to use it without looking. If I'm in a rush, I'm more likely to make a mistake and select the wrong direction. In the case of a neighborhood with kids on the street, than that is a nonzero chance of me backing into kids instead of moving forward into my garage.

 

[Knightshade]

Come on dude. You can disagree that it's slower to select gears with a button press above your head or on the screen than a flick next to the steering wheel, but being stuck in snow is definitely a safety risk. I've had to rock my car out of snow due to drifts when there is oncoming traffic. It's rare, but removing the stalk does nothing but make the scenario more dangerous

How, specifically does it make it more dangerous?

Pushing R then D then R buttons is faster than moving the gear selector stalk up and then down over and over.

It should make rocking the car easier

Likewise, I have a much easier time typing in my physical keyboard than typing in my phone. The physical feedback allows me to use it without looking. If I'm in a rush, I'm more likely to make a mistake and select the wrong direction. In the case of a neighborhood with kids on the street, than that is a nonzero chance of me backing into kids instead of moving forward into my garage.

Huh?

The stalk has no physical feedback to tell you what gear you picked either... It's not like it's an old mechanical shifter that's in a physically different position for each gear.

You only know you made a hand motion on the stick-- just like you're know you made one on the screen or the physical gear selector button.

In either case if you're at all unsure which you engaged while stationary you verify what gear you are in with the gear display before moving.

I can't believe you're the second person I've had to explain this Drivers Ed 101 stuff to. Yikes.

 

[ph0ton]

Got it, you are just trolling for an argument. You weren't actually trying to understand my/our position.

 

[zoomer0056]

Pushing R then D then R buttons is faster than moving the gear selector stalk up and then down over and over.

It should make rocking the car easier

Ok, I've been lurking and reading. I see egos being defended and ideas being stubbornly proposed. Let me add another. For Model 3 Highland, it most certainly is not quicker or safer to keep one hand on the wheel, eyes on both front and rear views AND your other hand over your head moving around as you try to hit the little D and R on the secondary gearshift to rock-n-roll your car. It's much much much better and less prone to mistakes by using the simple shoulder height screen swipe up and swipe down. Stalks .... meh ...

 

[KJD]

It's really very simple to decide. Go down to the local Tesla store and test drive the stalkless model S and then go test drive the model Y with stalks. For me the old style stalks are a clear winner.

I would really like to have a car with 400 miles of range like the model S has. I also think the model S is a better looking car than the model Y. However every day tasks like shifting gears and using the turn signal levers are just easier and faster in the Y. For that reason there is no model S in my future.

The Tesla stores around here seem to have a good supply of S and X with yokes and stalkless system. There is a reason for that.

 

[ks1972]

The Tesla stores around here seem to have a good supply of S and X with yokes and stalkless system. There is a reason for that.

I have noticed that too, all 20 of inventory S are with yoke in Atlanta area.

I gave in and replaced my 2018 M3 AWD with an M3P, 48k price was too tempting. I don’t want this highland garbage. If TeslaVision continues to suck after 6 months or so, I will sue them in small claims court and try to get FSD money back.