MikeBur
ManualPilot
Conspiracy theorists Unite! At best it's an exTesla Roadster employee sitting at home in Norwich, England ;-)
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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
- Thread starter Matias
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Conspiracy theorists Unite! At best it's an exTesla Roadster employee sitting at home in Norwich, England ;-)
Vladimir's posts (in this and other hp threads) outline technical aspects of the topic much better than I could ever do. Stopcrazypp also outlined some aspects and the history of the issue quite well. Some other contributors added extra colors to the technical explanations. I have nothing of value to add to their posts.
Tesla provided scant but technically correct information on its website regarding its product.
Many Tesla P85D customers were ok with the scantily provided information and are happy with their purchase.
The provided specs were insufficient to adequately inform all customers on the product performance.
In a context of scant information and new poorly understood technology, some customers made wrong assumptions about P85D as they tried to compare bev car to ice car using ice car relevant metrics. People that made these wrong assumptions felt cheated once they realized that the car does not perform as their assumptions led them to expect.
The hp debate on the forum was long, heated and public. It is now quite difficult to reverse out of publicly taken positions, to accept the validity of the opposing point of view.
Tesla's failure in respect to hp issue is a business failure rather than a legal (contractual) failure imho. Tesla could have done better to inform and educate its customers sufficiently on the new product and technology. These are the early days of the new bev cars technology. In such environment, customers might need additional information and education on the product and the technology, to enable them to make informed purchase decisions.
Going forward, my expectation is that Tesla increases its efforts at proactive customer information and education. I am also hoping for more component metrics instead of car metrics on the website, but that is just personal preference and I am likely to be in the minority. I would prefer to see car power described as 'adequate' 'insane' or similar, rather than have a single heavily scrutinized and disputed number.
Regarding hp complaints resolution, I'd be surprised if Tesla responds to any complaints outside of court. I would not be surprised if in the future we see new posts on TMC, along the lines of: I can not place an order, Tesla put me on a blacklist!
If some customers are bad for business in a sense that they damage the company, its reputation, its sales, then there should be no surprises if the business protects itself by severing ties.
It is ok to complain if people feel cheated. It is not ok to do it in a manner that is disproportionate and unmeasured. It is disproportionate and damaging to claim conspiracy on behalf of Tesla, to slap 'lies and deception' on Tesla and its CEO and similar, as I have seen done here on TMC.
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
For what it is worth, my position evolved while participating in this thread. I think it was PD who said there are some very bright articulate people contributing and, if nothing else, this thread is a good lesson in debating.
I appreciated the attempts to boil the debate down to irrefutable facts but have come to realize that doing so simply moved the debate to a place that it would have been better served for three or four people to hit the pub and order a few rounds. If others are like me, their eyes glazed over and they started skimming the posts only picking up how the same points were massaged to respond to the previous poster(s) observation(s).
I think the discussion has gone way off course for forensic examination of the trees leaving us all to forget what the forest even looked like.
The forest as I see it consists of what Tesla was doing when they launched the P85D, the technical progression since and how they are handling the situation now. I can see why some people would feel slighted while others simply do not care.
If anyone is game, I'd love to see the same bright capable debaters go at the global or overall sequence of events devoid of the brutally mind numbing detail.
I appreciated the attempts to boil the debate down to irrefutable facts but have come to realize that doing so simply moved the debate to a place that it would have been better served for three or four people to hit the pub and order a few rounds. If others are like me, their eyes glazed over and they started skimming the posts only picking up how the same points were massaged to respond to the previous poster(s) observation(s).
I think the discussion has gone way off course for forensic examination of the trees leaving us all to forget what the forest even looked like.
The forest as I see it consists of what Tesla was doing when they launched the P85D, the technical progression since and how they are handling the situation now. I can see why some people would feel slighted while others simply do not care.
If anyone is game, I'd love to see the same bright capable debaters go at the global or overall sequence of events devoid of the brutally mind numbing detail.
FWIW, I changed sides. I started out making most of the pro-Tesla arguments in this thread in the original 693 thread. I made them less passionately and less effectively, but basically argued for a position that I've been persuaded was mostly wrong.
I picked a good day yesterday to decide that if I continued reading I would jump out of the window. It really went completely crazy by the end of the day.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
A question out of curiosity.....
For those that feel they did not get what they paid for, what do you think you are "owed"? I've not included cash, just physical remedies.
You know you will never get near 700 hp out of the battery so do you want Tesla to take back your car?
Did you think you should get what I suspect Tesla intended when they launched the P85D and later mentioned a free OTA update to improve high speed performance?
Do you think P85D owners should get the full benefit of the MotorTrend's P90DL performance for just the capacity upgrade cost ($3K) or hardware plus capacity upgrade cost ($8K)?
Are you happy participating in the response to Tesla's being unable to do the P85D high speed upgrade by contributing $5K provided you receive .2 seconds slower than the MotorTrend P90DL's performance? If you are, what is a reasonable time frame in which to receive this upgrade? I ask about time frame as I normally keep a car for three years so waiting a year has me a 1/3 of my way into ownership prior to upgrade.
For those that feel they did not get what they paid for, what do you think you are "owed"? I've not included cash, just physical remedies.
You know you will never get near 700 hp out of the battery so do you want Tesla to take back your car?
Did you think you should get what I suspect Tesla intended when they launched the P85D and later mentioned a free OTA update to improve high speed performance?
Do you think P85D owners should get the full benefit of the MotorTrend's P90DL performance for just the capacity upgrade cost ($3K) or hardware plus capacity upgrade cost ($8K)?
Are you happy participating in the response to Tesla's being unable to do the P85D high speed upgrade by contributing $5K provided you receive .2 seconds slower than the MotorTrend P90DL's performance? If you are, what is a reasonable time frame in which to receive this upgrade? I ask about time frame as I normally keep a car for three years so waiting a year has me a 1/3 of my way into ownership prior to upgrade.
Had I lived in the US I would most likely have accepted a buyback as long as I could have purchased a 90D afterwards. Knowing what I know now I would never have paid the extra for the P.
But since I don't live in the US and the exchange rate USD vs NOK has gone bananas, in the wrong direction, in the last year this isnt an option. The 90D is more expensive here now than my P85D was last year
And I finally have nextgen-seats back and front....At the moment I have a tiny tiny hope of a partial refund or a free lud-upgrade. Both would make me "happy", but the refund would make me truly happy
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I'm not out for blood.
I recognize that Tesla is probably not going to be able to fully deliver on the original promise.
I definitely do not want to give up my car. If that were the only option, I imagine I may be willing to, for a full refund, provided I could buy another. It would not be close to my first choice.
I think my first choice would be to be given the option of waiting some pre-defined amount of time, for a battery pack of a pre-determined size, that Tesla would guarantee would make some pre-determined amount of horsepower much closer to or in excess of 691 HP. To those that would argue it's unreasonable for us to benefit from a bigger pack, my counter-argument would be that Tesla brought this on themselves, and that the benefits of the larger pack are being offset by not having the complete car we paid for while we wait for it.
If the above is not an option, or for people who choose not to wait for the larger pack, I think the ludicrous upgrade should be performed at no charge, provided it will at lest get the P85D close to the Motor Trend P90D with Ludicrous numbers. (Within the .2 seconds of both stats that lola suggested would be fine.) If Tesla can't do that without also upgrading the pack to a 90 pack, then I think the 90-pack should be part of the upgrade.
Note that in both cases above, P85D owners still aren't getting the 691 horsepower originally promised.
I won't attempt to address the time frame question, because that just complicates this further, and I have no real insight to share, or background to offer any reasonable estimate of how long something like this could take. I will say, though, that if a mix of current upgrades and people waiting for a future battery is part of the solution, then there is some extra value (or lower cost) to Tesla in the people willing to wait, because they will be allowing the work to be spread out over a much longer time period, and to a point in time when Tesla is likely to have more service centers in operation. (I'm not suggesting that makes the option a lower cost one than the "deal with it now" option--just that it does positively affect its attractiveness to Tesla.)
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Jallum.pa.us
Member
I purchased 10/14, and took their specs at face value. I'd be fine with 1) an aknowledgement of the problem 2) corrections to the marketing materials (mostly done, now) and 3) a reasonable credit towards a future purchase.
Very nice summary of this 70 some pages of a thread, although I do not think people should be black listed just because they have complained or taken the issue to the court.
Tesla delivered what they promised, yet didn't explain the technical details to those customers who thought they were promised something else. Tesla benefited from this misunderstanding. IMO both parties have responsibilities.
Tesla delivered what they promised, yet didn't explain the technical details to those customers who thought they were promised something else. Tesla benefited from this misunderstanding. IMO both parties have responsibilities.
You said you were happy with the performance. A true 691 hp Model S might drop into the 2.5ish second 0-60 range is my guess and maybe go back to staggered rims setup so no rotation of tires.
All this is based on Tesla thinking they promised 691 hp at the shaft. Their blog post makes that clear that isn't what they intended. Sure, that's what you expected and likely reasonably so but that obviously isn't what Tesla says they intended it to be. So what you are owed and promised isn't the same thing in Tesla's eyes as yours most likely.
The best option for Tesla is to simply buy your car back and be done with it. You could then buy whatever you wanted.
Very reasonable. If tesla is willing to give credits to those who referred model S for boosting sale number, it is certainly reasonable to give credits to those who were misled in buying P85D resulted in boosted sale number.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to take this back to the first page of the first thread discussing this?
lola asked those of us that felt we did not get what we paid for to respond with what we that we were owed, and he provided some suggestions. I responded to his question. I don't see the point in rehashing the issue of whether or not Tesla actually owes this to us or not, since there are hundreds of pages already discussing that.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I wasn't going to comment on the following, but now, since others are actually agreeing with it, I simply must.
It's great that you feel the need to summarize the thread for everyone, but I disagree with most of your conclusions.
Your main premise that now that this issue is better understood, thanks to people like vgrinshpun, people on my side of this have realized the errors of their ways is outlandish. People on my side of this recognize those posts for what they are--attempts at obfuscation--at pulling the wool over the eyes of those who don't really understand the issues. You also imply between this post and the one it was clarifying that you believe thanks to this education we've received, people have changed to the Tesla side of things. Yet there have been a couple of posts after yours that suggest just the opposite. If anything, the result of this thread is that more people now see our side of the issue, and are less sympathetic towards Tesla's side of things.
Some people will remain entrenched on one side of this argument and some on the other side. That's just the way it is going to be. But I won't sit silently by and allow a summary of the thread to be posted that suggests my side has been proven wrong, and that people are leaving my side for the other one. That just isn't true.
It's great that you feel the need to summarize the thread for everyone, but I disagree with most of your conclusions.
Your main premise that now that this issue is better understood, thanks to people like vgrinshpun, people on my side of this have realized the errors of their ways is outlandish. People on my side of this recognize those posts for what they are--attempts at obfuscation--at pulling the wool over the eyes of those who don't really understand the issues. You also imply between this post and the one it was clarifying that you believe thanks to this education we've received, people have changed to the Tesla side of things. Yet there have been a couple of posts after yours that suggest just the opposite. If anything, the result of this thread is that more people now see our side of the issue, and are less sympathetic towards Tesla's side of things.
Some people will remain entrenched on one side of this argument and some on the other side. That's just the way it is going to be. But I won't sit silently by and allow a summary of the thread to be posted that suggests my side has been proven wrong, and that people are leaving my side for the other one. That just isn't true.
Yes, it does.
Lets do some calculations based on the system parameters of the Model S P85D... and some googling.
further on...
Through Google I get that the nominal* voltage of a Model S battery pack is "375 volts" per Tesla spec (link Technical Battery Discussion | Forums | Tesla Motors )
to get 691 HP we need 745.7 * 691 = 515278 watts ~= 515kW
P = I*V
515kW = I * 375V
I = 515Kw/375V
I = 1374 A
From the July Ludicrous announcement we know that the OLD fuse can handle around 1300 A...
Based on that, we can say that the "old system" (pre smart fuse) has 691 hp "at some point".
What I am saying (before the corrections start coming in) is: the pre-ludicrous system (Model S P85D has the hardware limits of 691 hp).
From the call on Ludicrous upgrade... the focus on fuses was that the failure band is too wide and they needed something more precise+consistent... and you cannot get the consistent precision with passive material... so again smart fuse would actively monitor and blow at the set 1500 A limit... so the true limit of the old system is higher then 1300 (not claiming that it was 1500 pre Ludicrous) but because of the nature of traditional fuses they had to limit at 1300A to cover their bases.
* Now, one can argue that the 1300 vs 1374 is substantial (~5%).
All the calculations were with nominal voltage... we know from this forum that the peak voltage of the Model S 85 kWh packs is over 400V ( Model S Battery Voltage? )
P = I*V
P = 1300A * 375V = 487500 watts ~= 487kW
487500 / 745.7 = 653.75 HP < 691 HP
If we just do the same calculation with 400V... which is still lower then the peak voltage reported on this forum.
P = 1300A * 400V = 520000 watts ~= 520kW
520000 / 745.7 = 697.3 HP > 691 HP
So,
is correct, the system does have 691 hp...
In addition to losses from shaft to wheel, I think the blog post by JB Straubel highlights why it cannot produce the combined HP...
More misinformation. The P85D battery is incapable of putting out 515kW.
There are batteries, with internal impedance, not a theoretical constant voltage source.
V*I=W or W/V=I etc type of equations don't actually work with batteries and always yield an incorrect answer. At low power it can be close enough to be OK, but it's still wrong at any power.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Or, we can all summarize our views for the benefit of the thread.
Like-
Tesla announced the P85D with having a lot more power than the previous performance model (the P85+).
The high speed validation work was not done so the cars were shipped without improved higher speed (over say 40 mph or so) performance.
Tesla announces a free OTA upgrade to improve the P85D's high speed performance (perhaps to bring the cars higher speed performance more in line with their own expectations for the car at launch).
Turned out hardware was needed to pull off the higher speed performance and thus the upgrade and Ludicrous was born.
I'm reasonably sure Tesla did not plan on having three levels of performance when they launched the P85D. Their previous MO was small battery, base and performance. Ludicrous was only added to pay for the hardware necessary to draw more current (making lemon aid out of lemons) not because they wanted to add yet another tier of performance.
Anyone else want to provide a summary that accurately reflects their view. For the record, the above is simply my current opinion and is not meant to summarize anyone else's.
Like-
Tesla announced the P85D with having a lot more power than the previous performance model (the P85+).
The high speed validation work was not done so the cars were shipped without improved higher speed (over say 40 mph or so) performance.
Tesla announces a free OTA upgrade to improve the P85D's high speed performance (perhaps to bring the cars higher speed performance more in line with their own expectations for the car at launch).
Turned out hardware was needed to pull off the higher speed performance and thus the upgrade and Ludicrous was born.
I'm reasonably sure Tesla did not plan on having three levels of performance when they launched the P85D. Their previous MO was small battery, base and performance. Ludicrous was only added to pay for the hardware necessary to draw more current (making lemon aid out of lemons) not because they wanted to add yet another tier of performance.
Anyone else want to provide a summary that accurately reflects their view. For the record, the above is simply my current opinion and is not meant to summarize anyone else's.
Andy is probably too nice to say it so bluntly.
So I'll say it: Yes, that's exactly what the majority of people are doing when they try to defend Tesla on this issue. Obfuscation by throwing out misinformation, unrelated information, and other nonsense to try and detract from the actual issue. It's pretty easy to see who these people are. As for motives, I could care less about motives when the information is wrong.
The majority of people are pointing out that Tesla's method of reaching this number, while misleading, has some technical basis in reality and can be backed up. You disagree with that and that's fine. To accuse people of lying and trying to confuse the situation by giving out misinformation is a little much. That would be similar to others accusing some of taking this situation and trying to get free stuff from Tesla. I don't think anyone is saying the car outputs 691 hp at the shaft if that's the confusion you think people are trying to create. I was promised lighted visors and onboard music storage but haven't made it my life's mission to 'make it right'. I've moved on.
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
wk,
You make good points but you seem angry. If I am right, that kind of anger does your health no good and also attacks the attention of wackos.
You make good points but you seem angry. If I am right, that kind of anger does your health no good and also attacks the attention of wackos.
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