Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Nigel Tufnel]

I know we're in extra innings, so I guess the game must be tied. I'm rooting for Andy to come up with another clutch hit and end it soon.

 

[LetsGoFast]

I know we're in extra innings, so I guess the game must be tied. I'm rooting for Andy to come up with another clutch hit and end it soon.

Will he flip his bat? That's just disrespecting the game.

 

[P85DEE]

That vid demonstrates to me that the Black came nowhere close to making its 0-60 spec. It got stomped out of the hole by a car which is slower than it is over a short distance.

For it to get beaten so badly out of the hole like that and never even threaten to catch up over the distance of a quarter mile, an 11.2 second car, well the term "sandbagging" comes to mind as this was a Top Gear episode.

I also wonder if the driver lifted near the end of the "race".

But no way that was an 11.2 turned in by the Black if it took that kind of a beating out of the hole by a car which is .3 seconds slower than it is to 60, unless that driver's reaction time was way slow, as in about a half second, or he spun or bogged or just plain sandbagged. Any of which would make that "race" suspect.

 

[lolachampcar]

Too funny



I think they did and MT got their hands on it (10.9 second).

sorka,
I think you would be amazed at the performance of a P85D with sufficient battery to sustain 480 KW of discharge rate for an entire 1/4 mile run. 10.9 would not come close to describing the results

 

[vgrinshpun]

House of cards. The the SLS AMG Electric never lost to the P90DL in a drag race and it's pretty clear from the video that it would beat the current P90DL *even* though it's slower off the line. You asked how is it possible? I listed two reasons above and you ignored them.

At this point, there's no evidence to conclude that the Electric *doesn't* make the claimed 740 hp and I conclude from the video that it's likely that it makes even more than that. There have been no documented performance tests of this car in reviews or by customers. Mercedes hasn't provided and performance stats either except the 0-60 time which has no bearing on maximum horsepower.

You've stated multiple times that Tesla was just doing what other EV manufacturers do by pointing a the SLS as an example and it's simply not true.

Mercedes states the output of the motors at 740 hp and the output of the battery at 600 KW. There's no evidence at this point that it isn't the case.

.

Unfortunately, the house of cards is totally yours.

You've got two hurdles to clear to make you narrative work (in order presented)

Hurdle #1.

You assume that SLS Electric accelerates faster throughout the 1/4 mile run because it has higher acceleration rate at every point in the race than that of a **floored** Black Series. This is simply not true. As was pointed out the fact that SLS Electric progressively outaccelerates the Black Series up to (and beyond) 100kph, while manufacturer rates Black Series .3s faster to 100kph than SLS Electric, means that Black Series was NOT operated at its maximum capability. This fact alone invalidates all your horsepower calculations because they are based on the assumption that the Black Series was operated at it's maximum capability during the race.

As a foot note (my argument against the case you outlined in no way relies on this), the whole discussion of the car performance using Top Gear video is preposterous because it is a scripted entertainment show. The funny Guy's jokes about food processor, glorified torch and the smirk on his face tell you all you need to know about the outcome they are driving at. It is not about hate or love of electric cars, and is not about real drag racing, it is about entertainment. And they are damn good at it.

Hurdle #2

The weight to power ratio does not uniquely define performance of an EV. The power/torque speed curve does. You either do not understand or choosing to ignore this, but I've outlined the way power/torque characteristics work for Tesla - you can go to my posts in this thread and review them. I do not have time to go into more details now, but I am going to prove it to you graphically, hopefully by the end of this weekend.

In the meantime, I have a puzzler for you: can two EVs have exactly the same power to weight ratio, overall efficiency and aerodynamics, but accelerate at different rate above 60mph?

 

[perkiset]

I know we're in extra innings, so I guess the game must be tied. I'm rooting for Andy to come up with another clutch hit and end it soon.

This game won't be over till Tesla falls into bankruptcy and some, with righteous indignation, will claim that they've done consumers a favor.

 

[lolachampcar]

Some of the discussion is very informative and has given me a chance to learn a thing or two.
Regretfully, there are those that must "win" or have everyone see things their way. If you do not, you are an evil villain either propping up a corrupt entity or trying to drag down a saint. Each of those is an extreme and seldom does life occur in the extremes.

 

[FlasherZ]

I know we're in extra innings, so I guess the game must be tied. I'm rooting for Andy to come up with another clutch hit and end it soon.

I regret to inform you that this is not a baseball game; rather, it's a game of classic cricket. We still have 3 more days to go.

 

[rns-e]

Teslas Nordic communication manager Esben Pedersen is quoted in one of the leading newspapers in Denmark for saying 'And I can understand why people may think we were just a little to smart.' when talking about using the 700 hp in their marketing of the P85D (Rasende forbrugere: Tesla snød sig til 222 ekstra hestekræfter - Erhverv - LIVE)

At least Tesla is starting to acknowledge in public that they have been misleading, changing which numbers they display to their potential buyers and including information about different measurements between the models. This is a very different behavior and very toned down wording from when this all started. Now Tesla and the people complaining agrees that the car does not produce more than 469 hk (463hp) and it will take 3.6s from 0 - 100 kph. So the big question now is how Tesla is going to compensate the people complaining?

Tesla has had an extremely slow learning curve when it comes to handle this issue, will Tesla be able to find a move that will satisfy the unhappy P85D owners and at the same time restore those owners faith and trust in Tesla? I believe Tesla will come a long way with authenticity, humility and honesty. On the other hand, if Tesla tries to hide behind cleverly worded rhetoric and do a 'Clinton' (Clinton, I did not have sexual relations with that woman... - YouTube), I think it will take a turn for the worse.

Which ever route Tesla decides to take, it will be an indication of which kind of company Tesla will be in the future.

 

[WarpedOne]

At least Tesla is starting to acknowledge in public that they have been misleading,

There is world of difference between "misleading" and '... may think we were just a little to smart".

I guess danish translators aren't worth a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys. Same with English language teachers.

 

[lolachampcar]

I have faith Tesla will walk this back sucessully.

 

[rns-e]

There is world of difference between "misleading" and '... may think we were just a little to smart".

I guess danish translators aren't worth a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys. Same with English language teachers.

One down for the Clinton route

 

[lolachampcar]

Possible fix.
Battery swap facilities with available 10C discharge capable light weight 60 KW batteries. It would be the best of both worlds; use the full motor potential around town and swap out for rannge for trips.

I know, never going to happen although I'd pay for that option.

 

[vgrinshpun]

The article also quotes Tesla representative referencing European Regulations (ECE R85).

"Esben Pedersen points out the background of Tesla's decision in a range of media that motors are given the highest output according to EU rules"

This is something that I've pointed out more than two month ago, but this fact was universally denied by unhappy owners.

- - - Updated - - -

Possible fix.
Battery swap facilities with available 10C discharge capable light weight 60 KW batteries. It would be the best of both worlds; use the full motor potential around town and swap out for rannge for trips.

I know, never going to happen although I'd pay for that option.

For a simple reason that such batteries do not exist.

 

[Johan]

Teslas Nordic communication manager Esben Pedersen is quoted in one of the leading newspapers in Denmark for saying 'And I can understand why people may think we were just a little to smart.' when talking about using the 700 hp in their marketing of the P85D (Rasende forbrugere: Tesla snød sig til 222 ekstra hestekræfter - Erhverv - LIVE)

At least Tesla is starting to acknowledge in public that they have been misleading, changing which numbers they display to their potential buyers and including information about different measurements between the models. This is a very different behavior and very toned down wording from when this all started. Now Tesla and the people complaining agrees that the car does not produce more than 469 hk (463hp) and it will take 3.6s from 0 - 100 kph. So the big question now is how Tesla is going to compensate the people complaining?

Tesla has had an extremely slow learning curve when it comes to handle this issue, will Tesla be able to find a move that will satisfy the unhappy P85D owners and at the same time restore those owners faith and trust in Tesla? I believe Tesla will come a long way with authenticity, humility and honesty. On the other hand, if Tesla tries to hide behind cleverly worded rhetoric and do a 'Clinton' (Clinton, I did not have sexual relations with that woman... - YouTube), I think it will take a turn for the worse.

Which ever route Tesla decides to take, it will be an indication of which kind of company Tesla will be in the future.

I'm sorry but I believe this thread deserves an as-good-as-possible translation of the entire statement. Please keep in mind the fact that I'm a Swede living in Norway for 10 years

This, according to me, is what the communications manager said:

"The rules have been in a gray area. And it's not hard for me to understand that to people we may seem to have been a bit too ingenious [in our way of presenting the horse power numbers]. But now we have corrected the numbers and the correction is here to stay. Some may suggest that earlier we elected to represent ourselves in the best possible light. But now we represent ourselves in the poorest of light, power wise, without someone [some authority] having asked us to do that".

And then he says:

"Our customers have been in doubt when it comes to the number of horse powers the Model S delivers at the wheels. In order to create clarity we have changed the way we communicate the number of horse powers on our website. We report, as always, the maximum output of the motors, which is in accordance with EU regulations, but to make things absolutely clear we have also added "battery limited hp". This is not a legal requirement and the resulting number of horsepowers is affected by a number of variables (state of charge, temperature etc.). But we have chosen to publish this number in order to meet the wishes of our customers."

 

[vgrinshpun]

Thank you, Johan. It is indeed important to present the facts in the most accurate way possible.

 

[rns-e]

Please keep in mind the fact that Pedersen, who is Norwegian, probably said this in Norwegian and was then quoted in Danish in a Danish paper (translated by the journalist).

Esben is Danish, and if not, he speaks 100% fluently Danish without a hint of any accent - which you can see in this video: Derfor investerer Tesla i Køge / This is why Tesla invests in Køge - YouTube

 

[Johan]

Esben is Danish, and if not, he speaks 100% fluently Danish without a hint of any accent - which you can see in this video: Derfor investerer Tesla i Køge / This is why Tesla invests in Køge - YouTube

Sorry, I wasn't aware, thanks.

 

[wk057]

I'm not subscribed to this thread anymore, but I got bored for a second and parsed out this thread. Let's see who the top posters in this thread are:

    125 P85DEE
     75 rns-e
     63 dsm363
     63 Andyw2100
     59 sorka
     53 vgrinshpun
     52 stopcrazypp
     52 lolachampcar
     32 flathillll
     32 darthy001
     32 Canuck
     31 wk057

I was going to do top 10, but did top 12 so I could be included.

Seems like in this thread quite a bit of battling by super vocal people on the "everything is fine" side of this debate vs slightly more concise replies by everyone else. I'll point out that he who screams the loudest on the issue is not necessarily right... but that seems to be the trend some people are going for here.

Personally, I'd much rather contribute useful information than go back and forth on the topic over and over and over until the opposing side is just fed up with having to rebut all of the constantly nonsense, like myself. My position hasn't changed, I just have lost interest in battling with people who ignore the facts and make things up to fit their position.

Here are a few other threads on this topic:

Let's be honest: 691HP in an ICE is Equivalent to 463hp in an EV
P85D Power draw numbers do not add up...
What technically would need to happen to get the P85D the 691 hp?
Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread
[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media
2014 P85D Owners... hindsight? regrets?
Tesla blog post: AWD Motor Power and Torque Specifications
Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Signature Thread Only, Please
What if Tesla would give P85D owners free ludicrous update?

For fun, I should parse them all and aggregate the data, including this thread.

Top 15 posters out of 5436 posts:

    348 sorka
    294 stopcrazypp
    292 Andyw2100
    240 wk057
    217 vgrinshpun
    201 dsm363
    173 rns-e
    156 darthy001
    144 brianman
    128 lolachampcar
    126 P85DEE
     96 krisg81
     95 WarpedOne
     83 thegruf
     78 smac

Andy's is a little biased due to the letter threads. sorka's and stopcrazyapp are a bit biased since they've been battling on this topic since day 1 and have both attempted to provide pretty useful analysis of the data on more than one occasion.

Overall, I should do some more stats on this. Probably would be interesting to see some time based milestones for when activity spiked. In any case, 5436 posts on the matter spread among about a dozen threads. Pretty obvious there isn't going to be consensus on this for some reason, so I'll stick to fun stuff like this from now on rather than talking to walls.

More fun facts based on these threads:

• The word "Tesla" was used about 10,000 times.
• The word "you" was used about 7,000 times.
• The word "P85D" was used 4,281 times.
• "691", 1,448 times.
• "horsepower" 1,332 times.
• "0-60" was used 1,245 times. (Interesting...)
• "torque", 902 times.
• ECE R85 was mentioned about 500 times.

 

[Johan]

Loving the meta analysis wk!