Sudden Unintended Acceleration

[d21mike]

Does the cruise engage at that low of speeds? I have tested it before and seem to recall that it doesn't engage below 18 MPH.

Yes. If there is a CAR in front to it. I have done this many times at a light. But if you are the first car at a light want want to set AP (or I assume TACC) you are right that you need to be at 18 MPH (that speed I believe to be true).

But in this case I am thinking related to CREEP. If he had turned on TACC I believe it would have been in the logs. I have CREEP ON but without you have to push the accelerator even in a parking situation. Like in my garage I have to "ease" close to the wall and I only use the BRAKE because I have CREEP ON.

 

[brkaus]

Claude, that was found to be driver error.
And deception by the media.
The promotion of the story involved some seriously shady biz. by CBS' 60 minutes program.
" "60 Minutes," in one of journalism's most shameful hours, gave air time in November 1986 to a self-styled expert who drilled a hole in an Audi transmission and pumped in air at high pressure. Viewers didn't see the drill or the pump—just the doctored car blasting off like a rocket."

Manufacturing the Audi Scare | Manhattan Institute

Memory of this is likely why so many folks, including me are wary of this story.
We had heard it before, we had been deceived before.
Now, there is an actual record of what happened in the car.
Same result.

People react emotionally, do not realize they are bashing the wrong pedal.

They also had the dangerous pickup explosions, helped by model rocket motors if I recall correctly.

 

[DarkMatter]

I suspect other places will see it more often with people who grow

Yes. If there is a CAR in front to it. I have done this many times at a light. But if you are the first car at a light want want to set AP (or I assume TACC) you are right that you need to be at 18 MPH (that speed I believe to be true).

But in this case I am thinking related to CREEP. If he had turned on TACC I believe it would have been in the logs. I have CREEP ON but without you have to push the accelerator even in a parking situation. Like in my garage I have to "ease" close to the wall and I only use the BRAKE because I have CREEP ON.

I think there's a lot of agreement there. My habits are wired pretty hard for the manual transmission (creep off) behavior. Other folks are almost certainly wired for the automatic behavior, so it makes sense for them to have creep on.

 

[Don85D]

Creep = coast. My technique for parking my manual transmission pick up truck is to apply enough forward way to coast to the desired stop using the brake only just like an automatic tranny vehicle with creep. There is no confusion that the right foot is always on the brake.

For those odd occasions when I undershoot the stopping distance by a few inches, I just say ' close enough'.

The only reason to drive with left foot on the brake is when the right foot is injured and you need to make it to a hospital. A test pilot for our Model S got warning messages when he drove with left foot on the brake so the car knows better too.

 

[DarkMatter]

I take it you don't park anywhere uphill then? Come to Seattle some time.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

I've made offers to people several times over cases where people were trying to blame Tesla for user error issues or felt that an autopilot airbag triggered recording would exonerate them from something.

My offer is always the same: You provide me access to the vehicle, I'll pull the logs and parse the relevant data. I'll then share the results, regardless of what they end up revealing, with you, Tesla, your insurance company, and I reserve the right to post the data wherever else it may be relevant.

Thus far only one person decided to take me up on this, then got cold feet at the 11th hour thinking it'd be best not to do so. I'm reasonably certain that these people just didn't want to have confirmation that they'd screwed up.

Every case of "sudden unintended acceleration" with a Tesla is driver error. Period. There is no way for the vehicle to accelerate on its own like people claim. It's also always pedal misapplication, too, where the driver presses the accelerator when they should be braking. Almost always cases where the car is slowing to a stop, then "suddenly" accelerates (because the driver hit the accelerator instead of the brake at the time they would be hitting the brake to stop the car).

I've pulled logs from at least two cars that, when looking back at news and posts, claimed unintended acceleration. The logs in both cases clearly showed the driver applying the accelerator pedal at the time of the accident. Electrek did an article about this: Several Tesla owners claim Model X accelerated/crashed on its own but everything points to user error

The vehicle logs the outputs of both hall effect sensors in the accelerator pedal independently. They both must match their respective output curves during a go-pedal press in order for the car to respond to a request for acceleration. If anything is off, the car doesn't move. If one sensor goes out, the car will operate in limp mode with drastically reduced torque.

Suffice it to say, there quite literally is no way for a Tesla Model S/X/3 to do what people claim without the driver pressing the accelerator pedal.

Well, this would normally be 100% correct, but for one little issue. Back in our first MS, a 2013 S85, we had a case of INTENTIONAL ACCELERATION due to my pressing the "go pedal" to the floor on the freeway, something I'd done dozens of times. The problem occured when I released the pedal completely, and the pedal returned to the full "up" position . . . yet the car continued to accelerate at full power (as also indicated on the power meter display). As a human factors engineer (be education) I immediately suspected the mat was holding the pedal down. A quick glance revealed this NOT to be case.

By this time we were quickly gaining on LLB's (Left Lane Bandits, hogging the left lane) and other traffic, so I again confirmed that my feet were flat on the floor and placed the car into Neutral.

Problem solved.

It did not re-occur, despite multiple attempts to re-create the problem.

The only anomaly from our normal operation was that we were, for the first time ever, charging two devices via the USB ports, and both items (an iPad and an iPhone) were resting in the center tray. (Induced current in accelerator wiring perhaps?)

Reported this event (in heavy detail) to Tesla. Weeks later I got a phone call to acknowledge they had pulled my logs (and the more detailed logs internal to the car as well) and "the problem would never occur again."

The thanked me for my concern and they may have offered me a free service or something. I never took them up on it, and they didn't offer it again, IIRC. Frankly, it's been a long time so I can't remember.

We're now on our 6th or 7th MS, but, YES, the vast, vast majority of these events, if not 100% of them, are a HF problem: Pedal Misapplication. However, it IS/WAS possible to have an Intended Acceleration event continue, undesired, at least a few years ago . . . .

All just FYI.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

About 30some years ago I remember a segment on 60 minutes on CBS about some Audi that accelerate suddenly...nothing is impossible.

That was a complete fabrication.

60 Minutes had the car rigged; it could not happen.

In every case it was 100% Pedal Misapplication, "caused" by unfamiliar drivers and the unique pedal positioning of the Audi at the time.

Here's an example of the latest "scare" caused by Toyota drivers:

It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare – Feature – Car and Driver

 

[stopcrazypp]

I take it you don't park anywhere uphill then? Come to Seattle some time.

Yeah, same thing in SF. Left foot braking is a very useful technique for this situation. The difference between the people who chirp their tires like mad going uphill from a stop vs those that go smoothly. Of course you shouldn't always be using left foot braking even for general driving.

 

[DarkMatter]

Yeah, same thing in SF. Left foot braking is a very useful technique for this situation. The difference between the people who chirp their tires like mad going uphill from a stop vs those that go smoothly. Of course you shouldn't always be using left foot braking even for general driving.

I think left foot braking can be a totally valid approach if it is the one you trained in. What seems more substantial to me is the weight of habits. I have switched from a gas motorcycle to an electric a few years back. In emergency situations I still grab for the clutch that does not exist. In line with that I think you could almost label the 'creep' option 'manual or automatic' because your formative habits will be different based on in which environment you have spent more time.

 

[Dr. J]

That was a complete fabrication.

60 Minutes had the car rigged; it could not happen.

In every case it was 100% Pedal Misapplication, "caused" by unfamiliar drivers and the unique pedal positioning of the Audi at the time.

Here's an example of the latest "scare" caused by Toyota drivers:

It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare – Feature – Car and Driver

Add a zero to the y axis, move the x axis forward a few years, and that's a Bitcoin chart, where the subtitle still applies (Charting Panic), but in reverse:

 

[Icer]

Of course you shouldn't always be using left foot braking even for general driving.

Old NYC Cab driver trick.
Likely other places too, but that is where I first heard of it.
To keep the revs up, get to the opening first.
Because they close, fast.

 

[Ying]

husband of OP here with a couple updates and points:

- Tesla provided us with a written report of the sequence of events as far as they can reconstruct.
- Tesla responded to a few follow up questions we had just today (hence the update).
- Tesla will not provide datalogs. To quote, "[...] we are not able to provide a printout of the data logs unless we receive a court order or subpoena."

- According to the written report and follow up questions, the accelerator was applied for about 1s at 19% reach 10mph, the accelerator and brake pedal were not applied at the same time, there is a sub-1 second time interval between the accelerator pedal being let go and the brake applied. The total time between first acceleration (19%) to impact is just under 2 seconds.

- This to me is a logical chain of events. However, without the datalog, there is no certainty this is the actual chain of events. It is a plausible story but not proof.
- On one hand, I have my wife's memory of the event, on the other, I have a report without supporting data. Literally a he said, she said situation...
- I am engineer working in a research capacity so the idea of writing a report but refusing to show the underlying data is antithetical to everything I do. Obviously, this is a legal decision made by Tesla but it definitely grates.
- As for the usefulness of datalogs, I look at tool datalogs a few times a week, either raw or in an exported format. I am sure Tesla has a dataviewer (or if it's just a spreadsheet, excel) so interpreting time-stamped data is not a question of looking at binary code.

So where does this leave us? I do think the car is safe to drive but I will definitely want to start using a data logger (if there is one that monitors accelerator and brake pedals) that provides this level of detail. I do find the refusal to provide datalogs infuriating though putting a company's needs ahead of its customers is hardly unique to Tesla.

 

[d21mike]

husband of OP here with a couple updates and points:

- Tesla provided us with a written report of the sequence of events as far as they can reconstruct.
- Tesla responded to a few follow up questions we had just today (hence the update).
- Tesla will not provide datalogs. To quote, "[...] we are not able to provide a printout of the data logs unless we receive a court order or subpoena."

- According to the written report and follow up questions, the accelerator was applied for about 1s at 19% reach 10mph, the accelerator and brake pedal were not applied at the same time, there is a sub-1 second time interval between the accelerator pedal being let go and the brake applied. The total time between first acceleration (19%) to impact is just under 2 seconds.

- This to me is a logical chain of events. However, without the datalog, there is no certainty this is the actual chain of events. It is a plausible story but not proof.
- On one hand, I have my wife's memory of the event, on the other, I have a report without supporting data. Literally a he said, she said situation...
- I am engineer working in a research capacity so the idea of writing a report but refusing to show the underlying data is antithetical to everything I do. Obviously, this is a legal decision made by Tesla but it definitely grates.
- As for the usefulness of datalogs, I look at tool datalogs a few times a week, either raw or in an exported format. I am sure Tesla has a dataviewer (or if it's just a spreadsheet, excel) so interpreting time-stamped data is not a question of looking at binary code.

So where does this leave us? I do think the car is safe to drive but I will definitely want to start using a data logger (if there is one that monitors accelerator and brake pedals) that provides this level of detail. I do find the refusal to provide datalogs infuriating though putting a company's needs ahead of its customers is hardly unique to Tesla.

Not sure you or wife has answered the questions from the members here. My question is, does you car have CREEP ON or OFF? The reason I ask is if it is OFF then she would be required to press the accelerator while parking but will CREEP ON maybe she would have just used the brake.

 

[RAW84]

So where does this leave us? I do think the car is safe to drive but I will definitely want to start using a data logger (if there is one that monitors accelerator and brake pedals) that provides this level of detail. I do find the refusal to provide datalogs infuriating though putting a company's needs ahead of its customers is hardly unique to Tesla.

I'm still unsure where this leaves us...are you continuing to pursue the logs, or have you decided to leave it as a "he said, she said" and move on?

I thought someone said there was a two week window to pull logs, so the ship may've sailed on wk's offer.

 

[SilkySmooth]

Seems like any car can do sudden acceleration. For a dramatic example:

Watch as This KIA Jumps Over a Passing Car at a Drive-Through ATM

 

[Ying]

Not sure you or wife has answered the questions from the members here. My question is, does you car have CREEP ON or OFF? The reason I ask is if it is OFF then she would be required to press the accelerator while parking but will CREEP ON maybe she would have just used the brake.

The car has creep enabled. I can think of scenarios with and without creep that could lead to having the foot over the accelerator pedal when parking.

 

[Ying]

I'm still unsure where this leaves us...are you continuing to pursue the logs, or have you decided to leave it as a "he said, she said" and move on?

I thought someone said there was a two week window to pull logs, so the ship may've sailed on wk's offer.

We contacted wk but given that he's on the east coast, he was unable to help directly and as you said, the window has passed. Tesla of course has the logs so there is always a copy if need be and if we are willing to subpoena them. At this point, the sensible thing is to use a datalogger ourselves and hope it just does not happen again.

 

[Bet TSLA]

I don't think you ought to question Tesla's story at this point. There is only minor upside for them if they misrepresent the data: this problem probably goes away. The downside is huge if you get a court order and they are shown to be lying. At that point everything they've said in the past becomes suspect. The PR hit is huge. Their credibility is irreparable. There's no way their legal people would let them take a risk like that.

In addition, there's no evidence that Tesla is that kind of company.

 

[Scott_K]

@Ying Good news on this front. Tesla has now provided a piece of public software for accessing the EDR data.

Event Data Recorder

 

[Pentium2004]

I don't think you ought to question Tesla's story at this point. There is only minor upside for them if they misrepresent the data: this problem probably goes away. The downside is huge if you get a court order and they are shown to be lying. At that point everything they've said in the past becomes suspect. The PR hit is huge. Their credibility is irreparable. There's no way their legal people would let them take a risk like that.

In addition, there's no evidence that Tesla is that kind of company.

If they ever did lie like that they would just settle out of court and have him sign a NDA before he could say anything