Supercharger for the Roadster (Elon said "No")

[dhrivnak]

To reiterate there is a LOT more involved than batteries for Supercharging to work. This will be an expensive upgrade that in reality is not needed if you have a 400 mile battery pack.

No-one at Tesla including Elon has every mentioned that supercharging is possible for a Roadster. Here are some things you would need to consider if YOU were to design supercharging for the Roadster. The reason I day you is that Tesla will not do this.

First the plug is designed for 240V and 70 amps. Supercharging is 400V and 300 amps. So you will need a new charge port, bonded to the car and heavier wiring. Then you will need to add new heavy duty DC contactors as the current ones will not handle DC current or that amount of current. Then you will need develop a communications system for the Roadster to talk to the Supercharger. I have designed and built three EV's and the challenges above are significant as the parts are not available. So it will be quite a bit of work to enable this. So please people put this to rest.

There is and will not be super charging for the Roadster. And many of us who have used the Roadster a lot realize it is not really needed if you have a 400 mile battery.

 

[bonnie]

That really did sound like a maybe.

 

[Doug_G]

LOL.

 

[Daniel R. Lucas]

To reiterate there is a LOT more involved than batteries for Supercharging to work. This will be an expensive upgrade that in reality is not needed if you have a 400 mile battery pack.

No-one at Tesla including Elon has every mentioned that supercharging is possible for a Roadster. Here are some things you would need to consider if YOU were to design supercharging for the Roadster. The reason I day you is that Tesla will not do this.

First the plug is designed for 240V and 70 amps. Supercharging is 400V and 300 amps. So you will need a new charge port, bonded to the car and heavier wiring. Then you will need to add new heavy duty DC contactors as the current ones will not handle DC current or that amount of current. Then you will need develop a communications system for the Roadster to talk to the Supercharger. I have designed and built three EV's and the challenges above are significant as the parts are not available. So it will be quite a bit of work to enable this. So please people put this to rest.

There is and will not be super charging for the Roadster. And many of us who have used the Roadster a lot realize it is not really needed if you have a 400 mile battery.

How long would the 400 mile battery take to charge with the HPWC?

 

[richkae]

How long would the 400 mile battery take to charge with the HPWC?

5 - 6 hours

 

[dhrivnak]

5 - 6 hours

So easily will recharge overnight. A lunch stop with standard J1772 adds another 25 miles and the same for dinner gives one a 450 mile range per day. While I like driving the Roadster 450 miles is a long day in the car.

 

[bonnie]

So easily will recharge overnight. A lunch stop with standard J1772 adds another 25 miles and the same for dinner gives one a 450 mile range per day. While I like driving the Roadster 450 miles is a long day in the car.

Yep. Exactly what I was thinking. Though I wasn't planning on getting ideal miles. But still, even with a decent stop during the day, I can do some good trips now in a Roadster with this upgrade.

 

[TOBASH]

To reiterate there is a LOT more involved than batteries for Supercharging to work. This will be an expensive upgrade that in reality is not needed if you have a 400 mile battery pack.

No-one at Tesla including Elon has every mentioned that supercharging is possible for a Roadster. Here are some things you would need to consider if YOU were to design supercharging for the Roadster. The reason I day you is that Tesla will not do this.

First the plug is designed for 240V and 70 amps. Supercharging is 400V and 300 amps. So you will need a new charge port, bonded to the car and heavier wiring. Then you will need to add new heavy duty DC contactors as the current ones will not handle DC current or that amount of current. Then you will need develop a communications system for the Roadster to talk to the Supercharger. I have designed and built three EV's and the challenges above are significant as the parts are not available. So it will be quite a bit of work to enable this. So please people put this to rest.

There is and will not be super charging for the Roadster. And many of us who have used the Roadster a lot realize it is not really needed if you have a 400 mile battery.

While I understand what you are saying, citing requirements for stronger battery cases and thicker wires is not prohibitive. Citing parts are not available is also not prohibitive, as anything can be built given time, energy, money, and a driving force with commitment.

I believe we should absolutely look for Tesla to try to overcome these hurdles, (and YES, I would and will pay for such an item fully knowing they won't be cheap).

Lowering expectations creates lowered impetus for change and development.

I would absolutely let Elon and Tesla gut my current system to retrofit it so that I might accept Supercharging.

If enough of us show commitment and are vocal, Tesla and Elon will take notice, as these cars are in many ways still the flagship of the company. Upgrading them, despite Roadster limited numbers, only proves Tesla's commitment to their past as well as their future.

Please don't be offended. I'm not challenging you. Please people don't flame me.

It is just that just saying it cannot be done is an easy way out, knowing there is another vehicle whose parts already exist for this same mission. Initially everyone in the press said electric cars could never be practical, would never hold a large enough charge, and were too heavy to be of any use. Initially heavier than air flight was considered impossible. Initially Galileo was considered wrong too. Things change with time and desire.

What Elon and Tesla ultimately decide is not necessarily what they ultimately might accomplish if they wanted. We as a group would and will need to convince them to want to do it.

My $0.02. Your mileage may vary.

 

[bonnie]

OMG, the entertainment never stops.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it not enough that Elon said it won't happen? As far as 'if enough of us show commitment and are vocal', it appears not enough of us want this. I don't care if Roadsters get this, certainly not at the expense at forward momentum on other projects.

 

[Doug_G]

I just edited the thread title to make that point clear!!!

 

[Raffy.Roma]

While I understand what you are saying, citing requirements for stronger battery cases and thicker wires is not prohibitive. Citing parts are not available is also not prohibitive, as anything can be built given time, energy, money, and a driving force with commitment.

I believe we should absolutely look for Tesla to try to overcome these hurdles, (and YES, I would and will pay for such an item fully knowing they won't be cheap).

Lowering expectations creates lowered impetus for change and development.

I would absolutely let Elon and Tesla gut my current system to retrofit it so that I might accept Supercharging.

If enough of us show commitment and are vocal, Tesla and Elon will take notice, as these cars are in many ways still the flagship of the company. Upgrading them, despite Roadster limited numbers, only proves Tesla's commitment to their past as well as their future.

Please don't be offended. I'm not challenging you. Please people don't flame me.

It is just that just saying it cannot be done is an easy way out, knowing there is another vehicle whose parts already exist for this same mission. Initially everyone in the press said electric cars could never be practical, would never hold a large enough charge, and were too heavy to be of any use. Initially heavier than air flight was considered impossible. Initially Galileo was considered wrong too. Things change with time and desire.

What Elon and Tesla ultimately decide is not necessarily what they ultimately might accomplish if they wanted. We as a group would and will need to convince them to want to do it.

My $0.02. Your mileage may vary.

+ 1

 

[Doug_G]

Companies do what is best for the bottom line, first and foremost. Developing a Roadster supercharger upgrade doesn't make economic sense.

The battery pack upgrade is ultimately necessary, because (a) they promised they would continue to support Roadster battery packs, and (b) if they don't support the Roadster battery they'll take an enormous PR hit - which affects the bottom line.

 

[bonnie]

While I understand what you are saying, citing requirements for stronger battery cases and thicker wires is not prohibitive. Citing parts are not available is also not prohibitive, as anything can be built given time, energy, money, and a driving force with commitment.

I believe we should absolutely look for Tesla to try to overcome these hurdles, (and YES, I would and will pay for such an item fully knowing they won't be cheap).

Lowering expectations creates lowered impetus for change and development.

I would absolutely let Elon and Tesla gut my current system to retrofit it so that I might accept Supercharging.

If enough of us show commitment and are vocal, Tesla and Elon will take notice, as these cars are in many ways still the flagship of the company. Upgrading them, despite Roadster limited numbers, only proves Tesla's commitment to their past as well as their future.

Please don't be offended. I'm not challenging you. Please people don't flame me.

It is just that just saying it cannot be done is an easy way out, knowing there is another vehicle whose parts already exist for this same mission. Initially everyone in the press said electric cars could never be practical, would never hold a large enough charge, and were too heavy to be of any use. Initially heavier than air flight was considered impossible. Initially Galileo was considered wrong too. Things change with time and desire.

What Elon and Tesla ultimately decide is not necessarily what they ultimately might accomplish if they wanted. We as a group would and will need to convince them to want to do it.

My $0.02. Your mileage may vary.

I'm sure you don't mean to insult us by telling us that we said it cannot be done. No one said it 'cannot be done'. What people HAVE been saying is it makes no sense to be done. And that's why you don't have the numbers to support your contention that we need to be vocal and get Tesla to change on this.

Roadster owners, as a group, are not known for taking 'the easy way out', as you state here. Perhaps you might reread what other owners have posted and think about the fact that Roadster owners, again, are saying quite clearly that it makes no sense to upgrade Roadsters to supercharging capability. Sure, it would be nice. And so would a bunch of other stuff.

And just a hot button with me ... this hyperbole like telling us about air flight and Galileo? Seriously? This is a smart group. Talk to us like adults.

 

[TOBASH]

Companies do what is best for the bottom line, first and foremost. Developing a Roadster supercharger upgrade doesn't make economic sense.

The battery pack upgrade is ultimately necessary, because (a) they promised they would continue to support Roadster battery packs, and (b) if they don't support the Roadster battery they'll take an enormous PR hit - which affects the bottom line.

Supporting a Roadster battery upgrade with Supercharging therefore makes even more sense, as why limit Roadster use? Proving they are willing to make upgrades to allow use on par with current models is exactly the kind of support they implied back then and we are discussing now.

I find your argument therefore does not entirely hold. Supporting the pack also means upgrading to make it 100% compatible with evolved technologies.

Tesla needs to prove commitment over and above all other companies, including a commitment of putting R&D into old and new products alike.

Elon wants cars that are not disposable. Tesla therefore needs to upgrade all cars to equal footing.

Again, this is not a challenge to you or your thoughts.

Elon and Tesla say that want to show support to old and true support requires true upgrades. I would prefer 250 miles with Supercharging over 400 miles and slow as hell charging any day. 400 miles is between 6 and 8 hours driving. I drive up to 18 hours at a stretch. That would require either a 1000 mile battery or supercharging to place me on par with Model S.

Don't get me wrong. I'm new to this forum, and I don't want to make enemies. I love the roadster and the feel of raw power. It is just that as the son of a PE (professional engineer), and as former mechanic, and as a current surgeon I know that the things being cited as problems are surmountable and would prove to be HUGE public relations boosters.

IMHO

Best,

T

 

[bonnie]

I would prefer 250 miles with Supercharging over 400 miles and slow as hell charging any day. 400 miles is between 6 and 8 hours driving. I drive up to 18 hours at a stretch. That would require either a 1000 mile battery or supercharging to place me on par with Model S.

So now we're getting to the meat of this. And I think I see the problem.

You need supercharger access, based on how you want to use your Roadster. It's not about all the other stuff. It's about how you want to use your Roadster. But you knew what the Roadster range was when you bought it and you knew you didn't have supercharger access.

Here's what seems to be missing from your argument ... while everything you say is true, you're leaving out the 'biggest bang for the lowest effort' part of the equation. Yes, Tesla wants to do something for Roadster owners. Consider that current battery cells are more difficult for Tesla to source. Replacing those batteries with new tech gives owners greater range AND solves Tesla's sourcing issue with the least amount of effort. My personal belief is THIS is why we're getting this greater range battery. Simply because this solves two problems - doing something for owners and removing a sourcing problem at the same time.

Adding in all sorts of new requirements changes the equation considerably. Now you're talking either changing product introduction timelines and/or hiring additional engineering staff (which will also slow down other product intro timelines as those engineers are brought up to speed). I'm not okay with that. And I'd be pretty vocal if that were to happen.

Most of us are happy about this new battery without supercharger access because we see it as a bonus.

 

[TOBASH]

So now we're getting to the meat of this. And I think I see the problem.

You need supercharger access, based on how you want to use your Roadster. It's not about all the other stuff. It's about how you want to use your Roadster. But you knew what the Roadster range was when you bought it and you knew you didn't have supercharger access.

Here's what seems to be missing from your argument ... while everything you say is true, you're leaving out the 'biggest bang for the lowest effort' part of the equation. Yes, Tesla wants to do something for Roadster owners. Consider that current battery cells are more difficult for Tesla to source. Replacing those batteries with new tech gives owners greater range AND solves Tesla's sourcing issue with the least amount of effort. My personal belief is THIS is why we're getting this greater range battery. Simply because this solves two problems - doing something for owners and removing a sourcing problem at the same time.

Adding in all sorts of new requirements changes the equation considerably. Now you're talking either changing product introduction timelines and/or hiring additional engineering staff (which will also slow down other product intro timelines as those engineers are brought up to speed). I'm not okay with that. And I'd be pretty vocal if that were to happen.

Most of us are happy about this new battery without supercharger access because we see it as a bonus.

Firstly Bonnie...THANKS! I learned of HCSHARP's Can 1 and CAN 2 from and because of you. Much appreciated!

My Roadster is predominantly for daily commute to and from work, where I have indoor parking. I love the TESLA for that purpose. 25$/day in gas is now cut 25 fold, and I get to really enjoy the ride too!

That being said, I would love the flexibility of taking my roadster skiing for the weekend to my friends chalet in Vermont. Even with a 400 mile battery that is not practical based on charging times. I would love to drive up and down the East Coast to Maine, Florida, etc... with the secure knowledge that I might reliably and rapidly charge.

So support promised from Tesla should means also supporting the retrograding of existing models to work with current tech.

ANYWAYS, I don't want to get into a long and never ending debate, especially with you. Therefore this will most likely be my last post on the matter unless some new development occurs.

Might I leave by saying this...

The fox might have jumped higher if he believed he might actually get some delicious grapes, but instead he said they were sour and walked away (AESOP).
Are we willing as a group to look to jump higher and get our flagship vehicles upgraded with the support implied, or are we calling upgrades a bunch of sour grapes.

I have always aspired to higher levels, and I was clear in stating that I am more than willing to pay heavily for such an upgrade.

What I feel is a bunch of people saying "no we can't get Tesla to agree", rather than people willing to say "let's ask as a group and show unity and interest".

The PR value for TESLA would be priceless.

Best,

T

P.S. Thanks again Bonnie for your help, and for many of your old posts which I have found most informative.

 

[bonnie]

What I feel is a bunch of people saying "no we can't get Tesla to agree", rather than people willing to say "let's ask as a group and show unity and interest".

To be absolutely 100% clear, what I've been saying is that I have no interest in seeing Tesla working on this. That is not in any way the same as the first part of what you've stated, though it does result in not being part of a group asking and showing unity and interest. I'll let others speak for themselves. Tesla PR is doing kinda awesome already. They're in the enviable position of 'so much opportunity, where should we be awesome next??'.

If support promised from Tesla also meant retrograding existing models to work with current tech, do we then ask for upgrades to the Roadster so that we can have OTA updates to the software? And a new touchscreen (okay okay OKAY, I could get behind that one! Hahahah. Just don't know where they'd put it. Give up the passenger set? Sure!) You get my point. A line has to be drawn somewhere. You and I are just drawing that line in different places, that's all.

(And yes, Henry's stuff is awesome.)

Peace.

 

[ecarfan]

It is unreasonable to expect Tesla to offer upgrades to older, discontinued models like the Roadster to give it major features of newer models like the Model S, features like Supercharging, internet connectivity, OTA updates, 17" touchscreens, etc.

That's like saying that an ICE manufacturer that comes out with a new more powerful and more energy efficient engine should make sure that new engine can be installed in cars they made five years ago but now no longer produce. Obviously that is not going to happen, and as far as I know it has never happened in a mass produced automobile.

I think it is wonderful that Tesla is going to provide Roadster owners with a higher capacity battery. Tesla is not obligated to do so, they only need provide owners with a "similar" battery as a replacement part. Of course batteries have improved quite a bit since the Roadster design was finalized and the car went into production, so it is probably not terribly difficult for Tesla to offer a higher capacity replacement battery. Also, offering a better battery sends a powerful message to EV skeptics and provides yet another compelling reason for car buyers to consider an EV instead of an ICE. So there are very good reasons for Tesla to do what Elon announced recently. But re-engineering the Roadster to make it Supercharger-capable is an order of magnitude more difficult technical challenge. Could it be done? Yes it could with enough resources. Does it make sense to do it based on a cost/benefit analysis? I think not, and I think it is highly unlikely Tesla will attempt it.

 

[bobinfla]

They're in the enviable position of 'so much opportunity, where should we be awesome next??'.

Great quote Bonnie. :smile:

 

[supersnoop]

There are maybe 1,400 roadsters in the USA. Tesla sells that many Model S's in a week.

Of those 1,400, how many would want even SuperCharger access? Of those, how many would pay for it? How much would they pay?

The general consensus here is that SuperCharger access would require a PEM upgrade, along with a cooling upgrade. How much R&D would that take? How much in parts and labor on each car? If 20% of owners would pay for the upgrade, I'd guess it would be somewhere in the $25,000 range. Would you pay that for supercharger access?