God. You guys make me fell like I'm arguing for the Defense of
'Free (of additional fees) for Life (the life of the car)'... It astounds me that simply because Elon Musk did not use the word
'free' last night, that suddenly you remember his saying
'free' every other time... Yet, for some reason, until today, all of you claimed that
'free' meant they were going to apply fees eventually. Strangely, now it seems the Prosecution doesn't have to offer any proof of their case, but the Defense does...
Looks like at least the hardware is standard. That is good. Now we just need to see how much it would cost to activate. (It wasn't clear that using the feature was included in the base price.)
DC Charging Hardware has been standard on Tesla Motors vehicles ever since they discovered: 1) offering both a DC Charging option and a second AC Charging option was confusing; and 2) that it was much simpler to just install the DC Charging Hardware in every car. So, naturally, DC Charging Hardware, for use with Superchargers, was always going to be standard on the Model ☰. It has been clear since 2012 that the Supercharger network is FREE. Therefore, every Supercharger capable vehicle can use it for FREE. The Tesla Model ☰ has been announced to be Supercharger capable -- therefor using the Supercharger network with a Model ☰ will be FREE. Damn.
What would happen if they all bought Model 3s and used Superchargers exclusively, because "charging at home is inconvenient?" Does anyone think the current Supercharger network, or even one three times the size, could support that?
Maybe it's just me. I'd love to see the EV revolution happen, but I'd hate for it to fail because of people using the system for something other than it was intended.
I'm not sure if those are offered as rhetorical questions, that you don't expect can be answered, or not... Chances are, if Uber/Lyft drivers could be identified, Elon would work directly with the company to
'pay their fair share' of Supercharger expenses, instead of the individuals. Elon has already set those terms forth for traditional automobile manufacturers who would like to use the Supercharger network. No direct billing, subscription plans, or pay-at-the-pump cost for individuals. The cost would be handled on a business-to-business level. No reason to expect otherwise with Taxi services. The Supercharger network is supported from proceeds of sales of vehicles. Unless people suddenly stop buying cars from Tesla, there will be no problem. What is
'intended' is that using electric vehicles be compelling, so much so that people choose them instead of ICE from now on.
FWIW: When I watched the reveal last night and heard Elon say that "Supercharging was standard", what I took that to mean was that every car would be equipped with the necessary hardware to allow for Supercharging.
I don't believe that it necessarily follows that all such vehicles will be allowed to use the Supercharger network for charging without any additional fee and/or one time up front charge when purchasing the Model 3.
So, lemme get this straight... No matter what verb, adverb, noun, or pronoun Elon actually says, you guys have decided to interpret his words to the worst possible connotation... Right?
I agree that it's a bit ambiguous. Hopefully we can get clarification soon. However, I think if your going to reveal it like that, it's going to be truly standard. I'm sure they have a plan to deal with the issues. Either a surcharge beyond a certain number of Kw, or a network expansion that can handle the volume, and perhaps an automated system that can move cars in and out at times of high demand.
Criminy. Ambiguous? Clarification? What the [FLOCK] does
'truly standard' mean...? No. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. NO. It is YOU guys that are grasping at straws to find some form of ambiguity that does not in fact exist. Because, for some reason it seems that all of you believe that Elon is constantly LYING to everyone.
Elon Musk.
If it's free on all cars, then Tesla clearly believes they'll be able to pay for the SC network's expansion and maintenance somehow or another (through sale of the cars, presumably).
Ah.
SO close... This is not an
'if', but a
'since'... SINCE the Supercharger network is free on all new cars sold today, that is because Tesla Motors clearly believes they will be able to pay for the Supercharger network expansion, maintenance, and administration. However... They are smart people, and will certainly reevaluate the situation as time goes by, to insure that belief is correct.
I just didn't believe they'd be able to afford to do that without making it a paid option. But again, this is one area in which I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Yeah, well... I'll be happy when you are proven wrong too.
Here is what I transcribed of Elon's speech from the reveal during the supercharger section:
Then, with respect to supercharging, all Model 3's will come with supercharging, standard.
So, the reason supercharging is very important, as, as many of you know, is that it gives you freedom of travel. OK. It means you can conveniently go where you want, when you want, how you want. And, a lot about having a car, is its about freedom. Its about going where you want to go. And so the superchargers are critical to that. So we are now to the point where we have built out 3600 superchargers worldwide. And about the same number, about the same number of destination chargers. That's present day. By the end of next year, we will double the number of superchargers. And, and quadruple the number of destination chargers. So, you will be able to go virtually anywhere. And, in fact, because the onboard charger of the Model S is able to adapt to any country's voltage and amperage, wherever you go in the world, if there is electricity, you can charge.
And that's it - he goes on to talk about sales/service centers next. He didn't go into any more details, unfortunately. So, I think this is leaving an out for some sort of paid system of some sort. He would have said "free for life" sometime during that long speech about superchargers if that is what he was intending, I assume.
I really don't understand why you guys only listen to what Elon doesn't say, and use what is not said to determine his actual meaning. Oh, wait... That's the same thing people did with President Bill Clinton, and currently with President Barack Obama... I thought that seemed familiar. Honestly, you guys are lucky I'm not in the public spotlight... Quite a few people would be getting cussed out rather severely. Elon, Barack, and Bill are much nicer than I am.
They can send all the notes they want about whether or not a person is not being cool, but that is meaningless from a contractual viewpoint.
How often is occasionally? Is it based on time or number of miles driven?
What is the penalty for doing it more than occasionally?
How cool are you allowed to be if you are forgetful about charging at home and also have an unexpected trip?
How long is long distance travel? 30 miles each way? 100? 214?
How is it fair that a person who lives in an apartment gets free local supercharging but someone who has a garage doesn't? They both paid the same amount for the car.
Hey, look! A whole bunch more leading, rhetorical questions, asked in a sarcastic manner, by someone who does not expect an answer! Joy! Here's your answer:
Just buy a car. Use Superchargers as much as you like. Go wherever you want. Anytime you need it. Just don't be a [DELTA] about it. Sorted.
Nice catch. I agree with others that there is wiggle room, but on the whole I think everything points to at least some level supercharging being built into the price.
Why do you guys want Elon to
'wiggle' so much? Something tells me he doesn't dance any better than I do. I dance about as well as I swim. And I swim like a rock.
The quote I got from Tesla PR is: "All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free."
Oh, for cryin' out loud...
I agree and this is why I think there will be explicit details in the Model 3 owner's agreement (and maybe even sooner in the Model S and X agreements) that clarify the terms of use.
Remember when CostCo ... If Tesla feels that people are "abusing" the Supercharger system, then they will need to formalize the policy a bit more than they have.
They clarified the terms of use in 2012. You guys all thought they were lying then. You seem to believe they are still lying. None of you will be satisfied until they prove to you they were lying, by adding a pay-to-charge system. When it comes to abuse...? Well, that's why someone coined the phrase,
"This is why we can't have nice things." But to determine today, while there is NO SUCH PROBLEM, that because there MIGHT be a problem some day that we can't have nice things TODAY...? Is an absolute mistake. Sort of like cutting off a baby's eyelids because they might get an eye infection some day... Oh, wait... Don't eyelids prevent infection? Oops.
Yes, some day, some how, there may well be some [ICEHOLES] whose vehement abuse of Superchargers ruins everything for everyone else. But Tesla Motors is aggressively expanding the Supercharger network over the next 18 months anyway. Exactly what I've told you all multiple times before. So it seems they will stay well ahead of the problem... UNLESS it just so happens that the actual percentage of [ICEHOLES] who buy their cars is grotesquely higher than they have been able to anticipate.
My initial reaction was that supercharging would be free but the more I see the more I think they were just talking about capability and not actual use.
The Model S and X pages state "Free long distance travel on Tesla's expanding Supercharger network" whereas the Model 3 page just states "Supercharging - Long Distance Travel"
Pretty much what they've said for the last two years. And... Both Model S and Model X allow 'actual use'. Something tells me Model ☰ will allow it too.
In my view Supercharging should be an extra charge for Model 3 owners. The price per "fill up" should be less than a tank of gas but more than the prevailing charge for an equivalent amount of electricity. Thus, using the supercharger would be cheaper to the consumer than owning an ICE car and would discourage 'local charging.' Just my 2 cents.
The cost of processing such fees would be higher than the amount that could be charged in a reasonable manner. In other words, you are arguing that spending more money will save you money.
Yep... Once the pool of owners gets large enough there will be a certain percentage that will abuse it to the detriment of the rest of us. There has already been a bit of the in the Model S community, and it will be worse with the Model 3. Tesla has no real choice but to prevent that.
This is prevented more easily by having ubiquitous Supercharger locations. Not by having exclusive Superchargers.
I would say that knowing upfront that you would have to pay for supercharger use out of the gate would be a bummer compared to "free supercharger use up to a certain limit". The SC network is one of the selling points of Tesla. Free supercharger use makes it even more appealing, even if it's up to a certain amount. If the average person can use the SC network truly for the intended use of free long distance travel, and we are given free access to easily cover at least the amount of long distance travel an average person takes then I think we're good.
Well, the
'average person' will always charge at home primarily. They will use a Supercharger occasionally for
'topping off' in emergencies... They will use Superchargers on road trips. And ultimately, those who never use Superchargers at all will greatly outnumber those who use them exclusively.
Now, if they want to say that the "free long distance travel for life of the car" on the SC network is built into the cost of the Model S and X, but Model 3 users would have to pay a bit more to have that same benefit, I'd be cool with that. I'd also be cool with a free designated amount of use can be included in the car standard, with those wanting more (or unlimited access) being given the option to pay more up front. Just as long as we don't get into a "pay per charge" model. THAT has been debated into the ground on this forum already.
I am not at all cool with Model ☰ owners being the only ones who must
'pay to play' in the Supercharger neighborhood. Oh, I understand why it might be done... I do consider it to be a reasonable solution... Except it is a solution to a problem that does not exist. It presumes that the Supercharger network is an unbearable burden to Tesla Motors that must be offset with cash either immediately or continuously.
True, and I did point that out to the PR folks. It doesn't say free, but by listing "long distance travel on the Supercharger network" with all the other base model features of the Model 3, and the price of $35,000 under all those features, it isn't much of a stretch to ass-u-me that Supercharger access is included in the base price.
Hence, why yon Red Sage doth quote,
"DUH."
My personal feeling has been that they will charge a flat fee (maybe $2K, maybe less) for unlimited SC access in the base model, but that it would be included in the larger battery model. That's what they were previously doing with the 60 kWH and 85 kWH batteries on the Model S, but then they rolled it into the base price when they replaced the 60 with the 70.
And that would certainly be reasonable... If Elon hadn't mentioned Supercharger capability at all last night. Since he did... I feel it would be more reasonable to presume the second half of the FREE... declaration be modified for Model ☰. That is, instead of FREE for LIFE... It would be FREE -- to the original owner. And an activation fee would be applied to the next person who bought and registered it -- if they wanted to use Superchargers. That way, cheapskates who never leave town and who didn't want to buy new from Tesla Motors could pick up a used Model ☰ down the road, and never give a dime direct to Tesla if they didn't want to. Sorted.
