Superchargers for Model 3

[Red Sage]

Musk (Tesla) has said on more than one occasion that superchargers are intended for long distance travel, not for frequent local use.

And once again you have mis-characterized the intent of his statement. He went on to say that was 'en lieu of home charging', which is certainly preferred by the majority of Owners who enjoy the option. Elon has repeatedly stated that using Superchargers alone is perfectly fine for those who have no other available outlet for charging their cars.

But in response to your comment about saving more than the cost of the car on fuel by charging on Tesla's dime for the life of the car, that is clearly not what the Supercharger network was designed for, and I expect this topic will be made much clearer before the first Model 3 hits the road.

The Supercharger network is in fact designed and administrated in such a manner that if someone uses it exclusively to fill their cars -- for FREE -- that will indeed offset fuel costs with an ICE over the same distance traveled. Elon feels that expense is 'worth it' to have one less ICE on the road. Because this is about reducing greenhouse emissions and working toward a future where resources are not burned to provide transportation. A big part of the the 'affordable' nature of electric vehicles is based upon the lowered 'fuel cost' as compared to petroleum based products. For most, that affordability will be from charging at home. For a very few, it will be from using Superchargers exclusively. This has been clearly stated since 2013 at least.

 

[Lloyd]

I have a funny theory, people. Tesla shall expand supercharging facilities in response to traffics; e.g. adding 2 superchargers not far away from the Hawthorne Supercharger and some have 6 stalls some has 12. Therefore, if you want more superchargers in your area, overwhelm the local superchargers around your home. Among five busiest superchargers number 1 & 2 are in China. No reason we can't be number one in using superchargers, as I believe we have more Tesla per capita here than there.

Mathematically, if you rely 100% on the free supercharging you already paid for, the saving on fuel cost shall pay for itself in 8 years (its warranty is 8 years unlimited mileage). Tesla owners drive a lot more than regular cars. If one drive 50,000 miles per year (not uncommom). That's 400,000 miles in 8 years. Using 20 miles per gallon range and $2 per gallon cost for gas, that's $40,000 fuel cost saved from a $35,000 M3.

I must say the saving on the fuel cost itself can pay for the car sounds too good to be true. Something is amiss here.

Yes, but what is your time worth? If you supercharged 400,000 miles @ 30 minutes per 100 miles that is 2000 hours to save $40,000 in fuel or $20/hour. Unless you are a minimum wage job, your time is more valuable than that!! At least until the model III is out, not many of us are in that situation.

 

[MrBoylan]

And once again you have mis-characterized the intent of his statement. He went on to say that was 'en lieu of home charging', which is certainly preferred by the majority of Owners who enjoy the option. Elon has repeatedly stated that using Superchargers alone is perfectly fine for those who have no other available outlet for charging their cars.

You keep saying this but not providing any actual documented quote of Musk or anyone else at Tesla saying this. My quote came directly from the Tesla 2015 annual shareholder meeting. Here's the full quote in answer to a question about battery pack swaps and Supercharger expansion. Spoiler alert! There's nothing here about using Superchargers in lieu of home charging. There's no mention of that at all. Here's the complete quote. No misrepresentation, just the facts:

"For the Superchargers, as we’ve said in the initial press release, the Superchargers are free. It’s basically free long distance for life, forever. So, free long distance forever is what the Superchargers are providing. There are few people who are like quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging and we also send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do this occasionally but it’s meant to be a long distance thing. But it is free long distance forever and it’s basically built into the cost of the car. And based on what we’re seeing in terms of the economics, it looks quite supportable. And of course, we’ve gone super fast with the super chargers, so most of the Superchargers do not yet have solar and a battery backup but over time we’re going to put solar over every Supercharger where it’s possible to do so or if it’s not possible to do, make sure that we’re purchasing power that is generated in the renewable manner so that the entire Supercharger network is powered by sunlight."

And here's the link so you can read it yourself (I hate linking to SA, but they appear to be the only ones doing full transcripts). This is page 14 (they split it into lots of little chunks to get more ad revenue from their articles):

http://seekingalpha.com/article/324...annual-shareholder-meeting-transcript?page=14

So, one more time, can you show me anywhere that Musk has tweeted, spoken, e-mailed or otherwise communicated that "using Superchargers alone is perfectly fine for those who have no other available outlet for charging their cars?" I'm serious. If this is or has been stated by anyone at Tesla any time in the last couple of years, since Supercharger crowding has started to become an issue, I'd really like to see it. Even if he said something before then, I'd love to see it in context.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Superchargers. I, too am enthusiastic about them. Without them, long distance travel in an EV would be painfully slow. But I have not seen any evidence that Tesla is OK with Superchargers being used for anything other than long distance travel (and the "occasional" local top-off). No evidence that Tesla is building out the Supercharger network to accommodate large scale local charging. So please enlighten me: send me references that show Tesla or Elon saying anything other than what I quoted above.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Red Sage]

Lloyd: Personally, that would be 4,000 hours of my taking a walk or hike... Because I'd plug in and walk away. Do some stretches, maybe calisthenics... Smell the flowers... Watch a sunset... Enjoy the view from a mountain pass overlooking a lake... Mostly during road trips, when I was on vacation anyway. Worth every minute, if you know how.

 

[diamond.g]

Looks like at least the hardware is standard. That is good. Now we just need to see how much it would cost to activate. (It wasn't clear that using the feature was included in the base price.)

 

[Ampontour]

So, one more time, can you show me anywhere that Musk has tweeted, spoken, e-mailed or otherwise communicated that "using Superchargers alone is perfectly fine for those who have no other available outlet for charging their cars?" I'm serious. If this is or has been stated by anyone at Tesla any time in the last couple of years, since Supercharger crowding has started to become an issue, I'd really like to see it. Even if he said something before then, I'd love to see it in context.

For what it's worth... I have a fairly unique personal living/work situation and have received mixed responses about supercharger use from Tesla employees in the past. In December I had the opportunity to meet Elon in person and talked to him about my situation. It is as follow: I work on a touring show and move city approximately every eight weeks. I have no home (and haven't had for more than a decade now). Could I have a Tesla on tour and only charge at Superchargers? Elon said yes. Supercharger use is for those 'away from home' and my case fit that definition for him.

 

[MrBoylan]

Looks like at least the hardware is standard. That is good. Now we just need to see how much it would cost to activate. (It wasn't clear that using the feature was included in the base price.)

I think it was clear enough: "All Model 3s will come with Supercharging standard."

Musk quote on Superchargers at Model 3 Unveiling event.

Sounds to me like Supercharging access is standard, not an option. So that's good news for buyers. Hopefully they'll be able to collect enough revenue to keep building out the network. Musk said they'll double the number of Supercharging bays by the end of next year (3600 to 7200) so that's a good start.

But it does look like AutoPilot convenience features will be an option. Same as with the S and X. The hardware and safety features will be standard though, so that's another huge plus.

 

[MrBoylan]

For what it's worth... I have a fairly unique personal living/work situation and have received mixed responses about supercharger use from Tesla employees in the past. In December I had the opportunity to meet Elon in person and talked to him about my situation. It is as follow: I work on a touring show and move city approximately every eight weeks. I have no home (and haven't had for more than a decade now). Could I have a Tesla on tour and only charge at Superchargers? Elon said yes. Supercharger use is for those 'away from home' and my case fit that definition for him.

Can't you just get a really really long extension cord? Seriously though, I would actually agree with that use case being acceptable. By the time they notice you're using one too much, you'll have moved on to the next one.

Even Supercharger access for long haul truckers (whenever Tesla makes a large cargo carrier/truck) would be legit (IMHO). Those trucks burn a lot of diesel. Switching them over to electric would have a huge impact on the environment.

But I see a big difference between your use case and running a business (Uber) expecting someone else to cover one of your main business expenses. There are over 160,000 Uber drivers in the US alone. What would happen if they all bought Model 3s and used Superchargers exclusively, because "charging at home is inconvenient?" Does anyone think the current Supercharger network, or even one three times the size, could support that?

Maybe it's just me. I'd love to see the EV revolution happen, but I'd hate for it to fail because of people using the system for something other than it was intended.

 

[AdamSM]

I agree that "Supercharging is standard" seems pretty clear, but there's a little bit of wiggle room there. That is consistent (barely) with "access to Supercharging on a pay as you go basis." But I was pretty surprised by that statement.

 

[RubberToe]

FWIW: When I watched the reveal last night and heard Elon say that "Supercharging was standard", what I took that to mean was that every car would be equipped with the necessary hardware to allow for Supercharging.

I don't believe that it necessarily follows that all such vehicles will be allowed to use the Supercharger network for charging without any additional fee and/or one time up front charge when purchasing the Model 3.

RT

 

[Mkorpal]

I agree that it's a bit ambiguous. Hopefully we can get clarification soon. However, I think if your going to reveal it like that, it's going to be truly standard. I'm sure they have a plan to deal with the issues. Either a surcharge beyond a certain number of Kw, or a network expansion that can handle the volume, and perhaps an automated system that can move cars in and out at times of high demand.

 

[Weezer Fan]

Not a current owner. Have my reservation in for Model 3.

The nearest supercharger is over an hour away from me. (Not counting the one at the Tesla store.) I will only be using superchargers when I go on long trips. The rest of the time car will be charged in my garage. Therefore, it is beneficial to me to pay a lower price for my car, and pay to charge at the supercharger when I am on long trips. Only sharing this because I imagine there are a lot of other people in the same boat.

 

[scaesare]

The Supercharger network is in fact designed and administrated in such a manner that if someone uses it exclusively to fill their cars -- for FREE -- that will indeed offset fuel costs with an ICE over the same distance traveled. Elon feels that expense is 'worth it' to have one less ICE on the road.

Citation needed.

 

[MrBoylan]

Not a current owner. Have my reservation in for Model 3.

The nearest supercharger is over an hour away from me. (Not counting the one at the Tesla store.) I will only be using superchargers when I go on long trips. The rest of the time car will be charged in my garage. Therefore, it is beneficial to me to pay a lower price for my car, and pay to charge at the supercharger when I am on long trips. Only sharing this because I imagine there are a lot of other people in the same boat.

I hear you but I don't think they'll "discount" the price of the Model 3 for those who don't want/need supercharging. If it's free on all cars, then Tesla clearly believes they'll be able to pay for the SC network's expansion and maintenance somehow or another (through sale of the cars, presumably).

Supercharging is a core feature of the Tesla ecosystem. Even if you never use it, the idea that it is available to you gives you peace of mind that you can take long distance trips any time you need to. One place where I do agree with @Red Sage is that keeping Supercharging free on all Teslas is a huge psychological advantage in furthering the adoption of EVs. I just didn't believe they'd be able to afford to do that without making it a paid option. But again, this is one area in which I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I just e-mailed the PR gals at Tesla to see if they can clarify that. But in my articles, I'm saying that it's standard (e.g., "free") on the base model.

 

[Az_Rael]

Here is what I transcribed of Elon's speech from the reveal during the supercharger section:

Then, with respect to supercharging, all Model 3's will come with supercharging, standard.

So, the reason supercharging is very important, as, as many of you know, is that it gives you freedom of travel. OK. It means you can conveniently go where you want, when you want, how you want. And, a lot about having a car, is its about freedom. Its about going where you want to go. And so the superchargers are critical to that. So we are now to the point where we have built out 3600 superchargers worldwide. And about the same number, about the same number of destination chargers. That's present day. By the end of next year, we will double the number of superchargers. And, and quadruple the number of destination chargers. So, you will be able to go virtually anywhere. And, in fact, because the onboard charger of the Model S is able to adapt to any country's voltage and amperage, wherever you go in the world, if there is electricity, you can charge.

And that's it - he goes on to talk about sales/service centers next. He didn't go into any more details, unfortunately. So, I think this is leaving an out for some sort of paid system of some sort. He would have said "free for life" sometime during that long speech about superchargers if that is what he was intending, I assume.

 

[Bighorn]

I think the slide behind him read "Supercharger capable" which is not synonymous with "Free for Life" which would have warranted a big pitch.

 

[MP3Mike]

If you look at the Model 3 page on the Tesla site you will see this:
View media item 114596
That seems to clearly indicate that Supercharging is included in the $35k base version. (You will notice it only says "Autopilot Safety Features" indicating that Autopilot will cost extra.)

 

[Drivin]

There are few people who are like quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging and we also send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do this occasionally but it’s meant to be a long distance thing.

They can send all the notes they want about whether or not a person is not being cool, but that is meaningless from a contractual viewpoint.

How often is occasionally? Is it based on time or number of miles driven?
What is the penalty for doing it more than occasionally?
How cool are you allowed to be if you are forgetful about charging at home and also have an unexpected trip?
How long is long distance travel? 30 miles each way? 100? 214?

How is it fair that a person who lives in an apartment gets free local supercharging but someone who has a garage doesn't? They both paid the same amount for the car.

 

[PaulJB]

If you look at the Model 3 page on the Tesla site you will see this:
View media item 114596
That seems to clearly indicate that Supercharging is included in the $35k base version. (You will notice it only says "Autopilot Safety Features" indicating that Autopilot will cost extra.)

Nice catch. I agree with others that there is wiggle room, but on the whole I think everything points to at least some level supercharging being built into the price.

 

[MrBoylan]

I just e-mailed the PR gals at Tesla to see if they can clarify that. But in my articles, I'm saying that it's standard (e.g., "free") on the base model.

The quote I got from Tesla PR is: "All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free."

Ouch. Guess I will need to update my article and "stay tuned for more."