Superchargers for Model 3

[doubeld]

If you've paid upfront for using them, then that is reasonable.
But if you're doing a range charge (75 minutes, eg) and there is no one else waiting for a stall, then there's no harm done, so why punish that person for topping up fully when required?

A solution to the unnecessary use would be a valet service at really big and busy stations that would move cars to a holding area when completed if the owner is not around and there is a wait for the stalls.

Let's not forget that the current model is profitable and you only need to sell ~150 cars with SC enabled @ $2k to finance the installation of a new Supercharger station. (If my math and memory serve correctly).

 

[Twiglett]

thing is though - superchargers are only there to enable long distance travel, they aren't there for "in town" daily charging. There are a whole bunch of folks who never use superchargers at all and get by on regular old L2 without issue.
L2 is perfect for local use, plug in while watching a movie or grocery shopping etc
The superchargers that get full are a tiny fraction of the installations.
Take a look at the current 2016 supercharger map, then add another year (or two) of supercharger build-out before deciding Tesla need to start adding extra fees to limit "congestion"

 

[S3XY]

If you've paid upfront for using them, then that is reasonable.
But if you're doing a range charge (75 minutes, eg) and there is no one else waiting for a stall, then there's no harm done, so why punish that person for topping up fully when required?

A solution to the unnecessary use would be a valet service at really big and busy stations that would move cars to a holding area when completed if the owner is not around and there is a wait for the stalls.

Let's not forget that the current model is profitable and you only need to sell ~150 cars with SC enabled @ $2k to finance the installation of a new Supercharger station. (If my math and memory serve correctly).

Better yet, how about having the automatic snake charger and AP to move the car to a holding area when it reaches a set percentage?

 

[cpa]

Better yet, how about having the automatic snake charger and AP to move the car to a holding area when it reaches a set percentage?

But that option is unavailable for those of us who bought our cars before the automated pilot, and there are still plenty of us

 

[Twiglett]

But that option is unavailable for those of us who bought our cars before the automated pilot, and there are still plenty of us

thats a good point - if they do come up with an automated system for using summon and snake chargers, the folks who are going to be clogging up the superchargers are all the pre-AP cars, who will become the inconvenient minority soon.
Maybe we will start to see automated superchargers that are not available to none AP cars.
Especially at the really busy locations.

 

[Saghost]

thats a good point - if they do come up with an automated system for using summon and snake chargers, the folks who are going to be clogging up the superchargers are all the pre-AP cars, who will become the inconvenient minority soon.
Maybe we will start to see automated superchargers that are not available to none AP cars.
Especially at the really busy locations.

I'm thinking what Tesla will do is start by adding one or two "automatic" stalls to each of the busy locations, which would only be usable for AP cars, then possibly gradually expand that - but always keeping some manual stalls open for the legacy cars to use.

 

[DarkDownfall]

So I just wanted to reply to this thread to correct a few points based on what Elon has said in numerous press conferences... Tesla cars will have free access to the world wide super charge network for life, this includes the model 3 and all other tesla vehicles going forward. He also told reporters at a tesla event in France around the 1st of February that in the long term he plans to open up the free tesla supercharger network to other cars made by other manufacturers, as he's not trying to make a monopoly or give Tesla and unfair advantage, specifically stating that they will be looking at adding the standard european charging plug to super charging stations. So all this talk saying that tesla will treat model 3 owners as second class customers who wont have access and is a joke. Model 3 owners are going to be how tesla starts to make mega money once they go into mass production.

 

[Twiglett]

So I just wanted to reply to this thread to correct a few points based on what Elon has said in numerous press conferences... Tesla cars will have free access to the world wide super charge network for life, this includes the model 3 and all other tesla vehicles going forward. He also told reporters at a tesla event in France around the 1st of February that in the long term he plans to open up the free tesla supercharger network to other cars made by other manufacturers, as he's not trying to make a monopoly or give Tesla and unfair advantage, specifically stating that they will be looking at adding the standard european charging plug to super charging stations. So all this talk saying that tesla will treat model 3 owners as second class customers who wont have access and is a joke. Model 3 owners are going to be how tesla starts to make mega money once they go into mass production.

Maybe there will become a time when it's the legacy Model S without AP that will become the second class customers.
Where an eight stall supercharger comprises six or seven automated stalls and the last one or two manual.

 

[Saghost]

Maybe there will become a time when it's the legacy Model S without AP that will become the second class customers.
Where an eight stall supercharger comprises six or seven automated stalls and the last one or two manual.

If nothing changes the current trends, I think that's fairly likely to happen in a decade or so. Of course, the current owners will have long since moved on to newer cars by then.

 

[Spidy]

So I just wanted to reply to this thread to correct a few points based on what Elon has said in numerous press conferences... Tesla cars will have free access to the world wide super charge network for life, this includes the model 3 and all other tesla vehicles going forward. He also told reporters at a tesla event in France around the 1st of February that in the long term he plans to open up the free tesla supercharger network to other cars made by other manufacturers, as he's not trying to make a monopoly or give Tesla and unfair advantage, specifically stating that they will be looking at adding the standard european charging plug to super charging stations. So all this talk saying that tesla will treat model 3 owners as second class customers who wont have access and is a joke. Model 3 owners are going to be how tesla starts to make mega money once they go into mass production.

Could you provide any sources? Which make it clear that it includes new models like the Model 3?

 

[hobbes]

Could you provide any sources? Which make it clear that it includes new models like the Model 3?

Remember the "free SC for future cars" too, trying to find the source I found this thread . I´ll search on and report back...

Got something from 2 years ago: Elon Musk Confirms Free Supercharging for Tesla Gen 3 (Model E) - Inside EVs

Discussion on TMC here (among other places):

Elon did not announce that all future cars would have free SuperCharging. He said "the general principal of having free long distance travel, we want to try to keep that consistent for all future vehicles"

So, again, I think it is most likely going to happen, but he did not promise or announce this. Given the scrutiny Tesla receives from its critics, I think this is more than a technicality that he expressed aspiration but not a promise.

 

[KJD]

With gas prices as low as $1.69 a gallon, I would say they are going to offer super charging for free on the Model 3, same as the S and the X. Tesla is going to want to build demand for that car as much as possible.

Not really sure if that is a good thing or bad thing long term but not my decision to make.

 

[Red Sage]

There's another option: Pay up front for limited use.

No. No, no, no. No. No, no, no, no, no, no. NO.

If you are so concerned, then the terms of Supercharger access could change -- slightly -- to be unlimited for the original buyer alone, instead of being 'the life of the car'. Of course, that would affect your resale value by whatever amount was necessary to reactivate Supercharger access for the next owner... On the other hand, those people who might purchase used through a private party, but are certain they will never need to use a Supercharger, would certainly appreciate the discount.

Uhm... NO. Better to leave it as is. Supercharger access should be FREE (of additional fees) for LIFE (the life of the car). Period.

The idea I have been pushing is to have paid stations in the urban areas. The situation may turn out that people still hog the free stations (if there is one sufficiently close) but at least you have the option to pay and get a charge without waiting.

No. This is too close to the concept of having toll roads for my comfort. I hate toll roads, and barely allow for the concept of a toll bridge. Having one set of Superchargers that are free, and another set that are payment per use would be... bad. Just like having public roads and toll roads. Or worse, public roads that are converted to toll roads. So, you have an entire network of Superchargers that are 'paid for' by sales of Tesla Motors products, but only a specific subset of them are free to use, even though all Customers have paid for them already... NO.

Musk in Paris on Jan 30 2016 at a owners meeting stated he plans to add the standard European connector to the Tesla Superchargers there to not obligate other manufactures to use a Tesla connector. He wants everyone to be able to use the SC's. Who knows...Model 3 may not be the only thing getting ready to clog the free juice.

Dund worry about it.

The exclusionary rhetoric upthread is disgraceful.

Garaged locals are not overrunning SCs, even in the #1 and #2 counties (for ownership) on the continent, and the notion of denying ownership to the non-garaged is laughable.

Some of you evidently think that the Model 3 will magically appear in droves. It won't. It will ramp up over the first year - two years and half the production will go overseas anyway.

If you want a group to be concerned about, be concerned about livery - not non-garaged owners.

Charging "local Model S/X owners" via some PPU SC model is a ludicrous non-starter of an idea and simply will never happen.

But thanks for the insight into how some of you think. It's pretty disappointing.

+42! Exactly. The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything about "Why Shouldn't Anyone Worry About Supercharger Access in the Future?"

I totally agree. PPU is going to be such a management nightmare and will be a hindrance to the Advent of Sustainable Transportation (TM). How the Model S and X are using it is the ideal way to go. Put the cost upfront ($2k seems reasonable). If you want it, you pay for it once. If you don't want it, you don't pay for it. If you buy a Model 3 with SuperCharging disabled and want it later, you pay for it ($2k if the car is more than 3 years old, or $2500 if the car is less than 3 years old might be reasonable).

Pay per kWh is fair, but if there are legal issues with that jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction, then obviously it's not a good way to go.
Pay per minute is stupid. What if you're being throttled because someone has the opposite stall as you are? What if you're doing a range charge and the taper has slowed down the charge rate?
Pay per location or distance from home is equally stupid. A local SuperCharger could be enabling you to do long-distance travel if it's the first stop on your leg away or back home.

As a few have said, PPU is such an accounting nightmare and I would LOVE to see someone justify the amount of work would be required to manage the system to be MORE profitable AND customer-friendly than to just charge a flat rate ONCE per VIN.

+42! Precisely. The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything about "How Do We Tell that Pay Per Use Charging Systems are Bad Idea?"

Not at all. If you need to use superchargers you need to use them. Charges should be reasonable. The whole point of any charges at all is to discourage unnecessary use, not necessary use.

Waitasec...

• What exactly do you mean by 'charges' here? Do you mean fees assessed for use...? Or do you mean something else?
• Who determines what is 'reasonable'...? So far, the only reasonable fees for public use of EV Charging Stations has been 'free'. Otherwise, they are always, without fail, prohibitively expensive -- vastly more so per mile than purchasing gasoline.
• Who determines what is 'unnecessary use'...? A plugged in Tesla is a happy Tesla. If you plug in, and it starts charging, apparently it needed a charge.

So I just wanted to reply to this thread to correct a few points based on what Elon has said in numerous press conferences... Tesla cars will have free access to the world wide super charge network for life, this includes the model 3 and all other tesla vehicles going forward. He also told reporters at a tesla event in France around the 1st of February that in the long term he plans to open up the free tesla supercharger network to other cars made by other manufacturers, as he's not trying to make a monopoly or give Tesla and unfair advantage, specifically stating that they will be looking at adding the standard european charging plug to super charging stations. So all this talk saying that tesla will treat model 3 owners as second class customers who wont have access and is a joke. Model 3 owners are going to be how tesla starts to make mega money once they go into mass production.

Thank you. This is rather close to my perception of what Elon Musk has intended. Those who want Tesla Superchargers to become the 'EXXON of EVs!' as a source of revenue are seriously missing the point. It is not about being Exclusive. It is about being Inclusive. One of the reasons why the Model S could connect to just about any source of electricity imaginable was to make having one simple, easy, and convenient.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No. This is too close to the concept of having toll roads for my comfort. I hate toll roads, and barely allow for the concept of a toll bridge. Having one set of Superchargers that are free, and another set that are payment per use would be... bad. Just like having public roads and toll roads. Or worse, public roads that are converted to toll roads. So, you have an entire network of Superchargers that are 'paid for' by sales of Tesla Motors products, but only a specific subset of them are free to use, even though all Customers have paid for them already... NO.

I suggest it because in city locations where people are using superchargers for all their travel (Tesla has installed stations in large cities like Hong Kong, London, Shanghai, etc where they are intended for this use), the prepaid model is unsustainable and can't scale (it only works if ~10% of total travel is on superchargers). Given the network is primarily for long distance travel, it doesn't make sense for Tesla to subsidize this use forever.

I don't think the toll road analogy is the right fit. Rather, such paid superchargers will be more like your neighborhood corner gas station (or charging station). Rather than part of the "supercharger" network, it'll be a separate network like the rest of the paid charging networks (like EVgo or Chargepoint). The only difference is that the charging speeds are much faster than existing networks (it doesn't even have to be run by Tesla, it can even be franchised out). And my suggestion is only as a stopgap while non-Tesla charging solutions catch up. If local non-Tesla 150kW charging stations become common, such a network would be unnecessary. However, currently it ov

 

[Red Sage]

I suggest it because in city locations where people are using superchargers for all their travel (Tesla has installed stations in large cities like Hong Kong, London, Shanghai, etc where they are intended for this use), the prepaid model is unsustainable and can't scale (it only works if ~10% of total travel is on superchargers). Given the network is primarily for long distance travel, it doesn't make sense for Tesla to subsidize this use forever.

It scales just fine. Stop thinking locally. Think globally. Whether a Supercharger is set up in Yazoo City MS and sees a visit two-or-three times a month... Or is set up two blocks from Times Square in New York NY and handles dozens of Customers per hour... They are still on the SAME network. You service your Customers where they are... You service your Customers where they are going... You service your Customers on the route they choose to take between them. ALL of your Customers. The resources spent to service Customers at any one location have been gleaned from Customers everywhere. It is not necessary for one, singular, specific Supercharger location to be treated as if it is a lone entity that must validate and sustain itself.

If one presumes the majority of Supercharger stops will be 30 minutes... And that the majority of gasoline station stops are over in 5 minutes... Then Supercharger saturation needs to be six times greater than the installed ratio of gas stations to ICE.

There are 250,000,000+ ICE vehicles in the US. There are only 25,000 SHELL service stations in the nation. So, SHELL is confident that a 10,000:1 ratio of vehicles to their own facilities is sufficient to handle incoming traffic.

Using that principle, a ratio of 1,667 Supercharger enabled vehicles to every Supercharger location would be appropriate to match SHELL. There are currently around 68,000 Supercharger enabled vehicles in the US. Those are serviced by 256 Supercharger locations. That is a 265:1 ratio.

Thus, Tesla Motors is already well ahead of the demand curve. Yet they are continually expanding the Supercharger network anyway. When Superchargers were first introduced, it was theorized that 200 locations could potentially cover the contiguous 48 in the US. Hardly 3-1/2 years later there are over 250 locations, 4 under construction, 16 under permit, and a whole bunch more yet to come by the end of this year. Both Distance and Density will be served.

I don't think the toll road analogy is the right fit. Rather, such paid superchargers will be more like your neighborhood corner gas station (or charging station). Rather than part of the "supercharger" network, it'll be a separate network like the rest of the paid charging networks (like EVgo or Chargepoint). The only difference is that the charging speeds are much faster than existing networks (it doesn't even have to be run by Tesla, it can even be franchised out). And my suggestion is only as a stopgap while non-Tesla charging solutions catch up. If local non-Tesla 150kW charging stations become common, such a network would be unnecessary.

If you believe that is a viable means of doing things, by all means invest in your own paid charging network for urban use. You will get your wish... Charging locations that are clear of the riff-raff and ne'er-do-wells... A place where a paying customer doesn't have to worry about being harassed by the masses, taking up space, and getting in the way. The notion has worked so well for gas stations, after all -- there's never any waiting or lines there. Of course, there wasn't likely to be someone diagonal across from SHELL station that was pumping FREE gasoline... If I were not sick as a dog, and up past my bedtime, I'd create a nice logo for 'StopCrazy PP Charging' and you could get right to work! Of course, the Tesla Supercharger diagonal across from your chosen locale may act as a bit of a buzzkill on sales... Be sure to have your lawyers draft a proper 'non compete' clause when you ask for that charging franchise. Rots-O-Ruck, and stuff.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It scales just fine. Stop thinking locally. Think globally. Whether a Supercharger is set up in Yazoo City MS and sees a visit two-or-three times a month... Or is set up two blocks from Times Square in New York NY and handles dozens of Customers per hour... They are still on the SAME network. You service your Customers where they are... You service your Customers where they are going... You service your Customers on the route they choose to take between them. ALL of your Customers. The resources spent to service Customers at any one location have been gleaned from Customers everywhere. It is not necessary for one, singular, specific Supercharger location to be treated as if it is a lone entity that must validate and sustain itself.

Thinking globally does not solve the problem, since the local charging is going to be a disproportionate drain (10x the impact of your typical user).

Again, the network is designed for around ~10% of travel on superchargers averaged over all the stations. Let's say a car is going to travel about 200k miles over its lifetime (this is the new average, it used to be 150k). 10% would be 20k miles. Electricity costs alone at a low $0.05/kwh industrial rate would be $1000 per car. Throw in demand charges, various fees, maintenance, amortization of equipment and it'll be much higher, but probably still sustainable by a $2000 prepaid rate (like with 60kWh).

Estimates have about 6000 Model S in China and 2000 Model S in Hong Kong (I couldn't find UK figures) and 100k worldwide by end of 2015, so assuming a hypothetical 10% of the worldwide fleet uses superchargers for daily driving is reasonable (and may grow as Tesla expands city superchargers to other countries). 10%*100%+90%*10% = 19% overall average. That would boost electricity costs to $1900 and overall costs likely approaching $4000.

So having just a modest 10% of the fleet be daily users doubles the operating costs of the supercharger network. So even having the rest of the world subsidize is not a sustainable solution.

If you believe that is a viable means of doing things, by all means invest in your own paid charging network for urban use. You will get your wish... Charging locations that are clear of the riff-raff and ne'er-do-wells... A place where a paying customer doesn't have to worry about being harassed by the masses, taking up space, and getting in the way. The notion has worked so well for gas stations, after all -- there's never any waiting or lines there. Of course, there wasn't likely to be someone diagonal across from SHELL station that was pumping FREE gasoline... If I were not sick as a dog, and up past my bedtime, I'd create a nice logo for 'StopCrazy PP Charging' and you could get right to work! Of course, the Tesla Supercharger diagonal across from your chosen locale may act as a bit of a buzzkill on sales... Be sure to have your lawyers draft a proper 'non compete' clause when you ask for that charging franchise. Rots-O-Ruck, and stuff.

Wow, you clearly do not get my point. It is not about creating "elitist" stations, but rather a way to have the experience be reasonable. Supercharger stations inside the city in Hong Kong are continually congested because people absolutely need it for their daily charging. This leads to a bad experience for everyone (whether you are a local user or using it for long distance). If they made paid station(s) available, a lot of people would gladly pay for it, and given it would be individually sustainable there would be no qualms about building more than one. Other third party networks are adding stations (and governments are pushing laws to allow apartment/condo dwellers to install stations), but they have been slow, which is why Tesla even had city superchargers in the first place. You have to understand there are people that can't have home charging and rely on such stations for all charging, and I'm pretty sure they would gladly pay if that means more stations can be built.

 

[Bimbels]

What IS stopping third parties from opening stations that have the ability to charge as fast as SCs? Is that proprietary to Tesla? Or does it just not make sense yet since Teslas are the only cars with the ability to take the higher speeds?

 

[RDoc]

What IS stopping third parties from opening stations that have the ability to charge as fast as SCs? Is that proprietary to Tesla? Or does it just not make sense yet since Teslas are the only cars with the ability to take the higher speeds?

It's both that there are no existing standards that allow charging as fast as the Supercharger and there are no competing cars that can come close to charging as fast a Tesla.

All that may change in another year or so.

 

[Twiglett]

What IS stopping third parties from opening stations that have the ability to charge as fast as SCs? Is that proprietary to Tesla? Or does it just not make sense yet since Teslas are the only cars with the ability to take the higher speeds?

All that stopping them it their cars designs right now.
Charging a little 24K battery at 135K is hard - part of what makes the SC's work is the size of the batteries.

It's both that there are no existing standards that allow charging as fast as the Supercharger and there are no competing cars that can come close to charging as fast a Tesla.

All that may change in another year or so.

That and no cars with enough range to make supercharger type fast charging worthwhile

 

[EinSV]

The main hurdle to widespread adoption of EVs is range anxiety. Tesla has discovered a simple solution to this: EVs with greater than 200 mile range plus a Supercharger network for longer trips. I think it would be wise for Tesla not to deviate from this proven formula when it introduces the Model 3.

Offering a version of the Model 3 that cannot travel more than 100 miles without turning around and heading for home (or stopping to charge for endless hours) will confuse consumers and keep the range anxiety argument alive and kicking, instead of dead and buried where it belongs.

I really hope all Model 3s come equipped with Supercharger access included.