Superchargers for Model 3

[S'toon]

So far Tesla has shown no interest whatsoever in expanding the Supercharger network in Canada. No interest whatsoever in making travel feasible coast to coast. Strange considering Musk's mother was born in Regina and his cousins farm just outside of Swift Current, SK.

Tesla treats Canada with scarcely concealed contempt.

 

[Red Sage]

Thinking globally does not solve the problem, since the local charging is going to be a disproportionate drain (10x the impact of your typical user).

The typical Tesla owner has not used a Supercharger at all. Ever. Because they charge at home. Ten times zero is... hmm... carry the two... ZERO.

The Supercharger system is meant to be used. Not hoarded. Not walled off. Not exclusive. Very few people would need to use a Supercharger to 'fill up' or 'top off' every day of ownership. It is much more likely that even if someone used an urban Supercharger as their sole means of charging that they would do so perhaps once or twice per week. During which time they would spend at most half an hour using a stall each time, before heading on their way. That is neither a 'drain' nor 'disproportionate'. People will use Superchargers when they need them -- if they need them -- and not if they don't.

Again, the network is designed for around ~10% of travel on superchargers averaged over all the stations. Let's say a car is going to travel about 200k miles over its lifetime (this is the new average, it used to be 150k). 10% would be 20k miles. Electricity costs alone at a low $0.05/kwh industrial rate would be $1000 per car. Throw in demand charges, various fees, maintenance, amortization of equipment and it'll be much higher, but probably still sustainable by a $2000 prepaid rate (like with 60kWh).

Once again, the $2,000 fee was originally for the DC Charging hardware that allowed Superchargers to work in a car. When Tesla Motors decided it was easier to install the DC Charging hardware in every Model S, they instituted a change whereby there would be an activation fee for Model S 60 vehicles. It is NOT, nor has it ever been, a 'prepaid rate' for ELECTRICITY. It was a one-time fee for the cost of hardware that had already been installed on the car. Once a car is activated for Supercharger access, the cost of the electricity is FREE for LIFE!

So having just a modest 10% of the fleet be daily users doubles the operating costs of the supercharger network. So even having the rest of the world subsidize is not a sustainable solution.

This makes no sense whatsoever. You are presuming that somehow, unless every Model buyer pays an additional fee for the 'option' of Supercharging, that suddenly the number of people who use Superchargers exclusively will continually increase to an 'unsustainable' level. You forget that Tesla Motors is a growing company, selling more cars each and every year. They are likely to do so for quite some time, year-over-year, for at least the next decade. Each and every new vehicle sold will contribute to the funding for the Supercharger network. Not some. Not half. ALL of them.

Wow, you clearly do not get my point. It is not about creating "elitist" stations, but rather a way to have the experience be reasonable.

You did not get my point. If having paid charging stations is a good idea, someone else can do it. Let them. We'll see how it works. I predict it will be a complete flop. Because you can get electricity anywhere, and most especially, rather cheaply at home or at work.

If they made paid station(s) available, a lot of people would gladly pay for it, and given it would be individually sustainable there would be no qualms about building more than one.

Once again, if you firmly believe in the demographic of 'a lot of people would gladly pay for it' then you are welcome to go after that market segment. Build your charging stations, set your fees, and watch the dough roll in to cover your expenses. Go ahead. I'll watch.

Meanwhile, Tesla Motors already has a business model that works. Just buy a car. Use the Superchargers for FREE. As often as you like. Wherever you like. Sorted.

The main hurdle to widespread adoption of EVs is range anxiety. Tesla has discovered a simple solution to this: EVs with greater than 200 mile range plus a Supercharger network for longer trips. I think it would be wise for Tesla not to deviate from this proven formula when it introduces the Model 3.

Offering a version of the Model 3 that cannot travel more than 100 miles without turning around and heading for home (or stopping to charge for endless hours) will confuse consumers and keep the range anxiety argument alive and kicking, instead of dead and buried where it belongs.

I really hope all Model 3s come equipped with Supercharger access included.

+42! Quoted for absolute truth! The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything about "Why Is It Better to Just Keep It Simple, Stupid?"

Tesla treats Canada with scarcely concealed contempt.

Canadians have access to something called the Sun Country Highway. It is a superb resource that has allowed coast-to-coast driving using high speed AC chargers for many years. They are typically free to use, and are truly awesome. If one compares maps for Sun Country Highway with the Tesla Supercharger network, a path through Canada becomes all too clear.

Electric Vehicle (EV) Products and Services | Sun Country Highway

 

[S'toon]

Canadians have access to something called the Sun Country Highway. It is a superb resource that has allowed coast-to-coast driving using high speed AC chargers for many years. They are typically free to use, and are truly awesome. If one compares maps for Sun Country Highway with the Tesla Supercharger network, a path through Canada becomes all too clear.

The Sun Country Highway provides Level 2 AC chargers. So a charging rate of 32 to 72 Amps depending on the specific charging station, and how many chargers the individual car has. I know it's been done, one of the members on this board has done the E-Mazing race in his S. But who really wants to drive a couple of hours, followed by several hours of charging all the way across the country? The person who did the E-Mazing race has stated himself this is not a good solution.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Once again, the $2,000 fee was originally for the DC Charging hardware that allowed Superchargers to work in a car. When Tesla Motors decided it was easier to install the DC Charging hardware in every Model S, they instituted a change whereby there would be an activation fee for Model S 60 vehicles. It is NOT, nor has it ever been, a 'prepaid rate' for ELECTRICITY. It was a one-time fee for the cost of hardware that had already been installed on the car. Once a car is activated for Supercharger access, the cost of the electricity is FREE for LIFE!

I think we are talking past each other, since you are discussing things at things at the customer side, while I am discussing things at Tesla's side. Tesla has to pay for the electricity and ongoing maintenance somehow. They may not charge the customer directly, but according to their SEC filings (for 2013 and 2014), they set aside $500 per vehicle to pay for supercharger maintenance costs over the lifetime of each vehicle (while the station building costs are paid for as a cap ex so far).
My car won't charge faster than 60kW

Given the past history of $2000 option for 60kWh, Tesla can continue the same option for Model 3 and that gives them a potential budget of $2000 per vehicle behind the scenes. This can be hidden in the margin (for example charge $1000 for option and take $1000 from general margin), but Tesla will still have to allocate the money.

This makes no sense whatsoever. You are presuming that somehow, unless every Model buyer pays an additional fee for the 'option' of Supercharging, that suddenly the number of people who use Superchargers exclusively will continually increase to an 'unsustainable' level. You forget that Tesla Motors is a growing company, selling more cars each and every year. They are likely to do so for quite some time, year-over-year, for at least the next decade. Each and every new vehicle sold will contribute to the funding for the Supercharger network. Not some. Not half. ALL of them.

No, I'm looking at the fleet as a whole and assuming every single car pays for it.

For US travel, the average for trips over 100 miles is 15.9% of total miles. Don't have the data, but I suspect it is well less than 10% for trips a supercharger might cover like 200+ miles.
Please don't do (better place method) battery swap stations, it's a stupid idea

In mid-2014, supercharger miles was just 5.5% of total travel.
Over 5% Of Total Tesla Model S Miles Are Supercharged Miles

By mid-2015, it is more than 8.6% (86 million supercharger miles in Mar 2015, 1 billion total miles in Jun 2015).
Tesla's 2,000 superchargers have powered over 86,000,000 electric miles!
One Billion Miles

The idea of local city superchargers did not come until late 2014/2015 (previously Tesla policy as for long distance only and never built any stations inside the city centers).

So if the supercharge network was built for long distance (absolutely no stations purposefully designed for daily charging), then supercharger miles should approach ~10% mark and not go much higher than that.

However, once you throw in city superchargers, that throws a monkey wrench on all those assumptions. My math is attempting to show that: if just 10% of users are daily users, it doubles the running costs of the network.

I look forward to seeing the latest statistics, but I suspect the percentage of supercharger miles is well over 10% now.

You did not get my point. If having paid charging stations is a good idea, someone else can do it. Let them. We'll see how it works. I predict it will be a complete flop. Because you can get electricity anywhere, and most especially, rather cheaply at home or at work.

Once again, if you firmly believe in the demographic of 'a lot of people would gladly pay for it' then you are welcome to go after that market segment. Build your charging stations, set your fees, and watch the dough roll in to cover your expenses. Go ahead. I'll watch.

Meanwhile, Tesla Motors already has a business model that works. Just buy a car. Use the Superchargers for FREE. As often as you like. Wherever you like. Sorted.

Again, look at the math on how Tesla is paying for running costs of the stations (this is ignoring the installation costs at the moment). Tesla's model is not sustainable if they continue to expand the city supercharger stations. It is sustainable, however, if superchargers are for long distance.

Basically just to cover that 10% of users, Tesla has to set aside twice as much money. They have to cover that somehow. Basically the city superchargers jeopardizes the continued existence of this model. For the record, I am in favor of keeping free supercharger for long distance trips open as a option for all Teslas. I am against the suggestion of creating a second class (for example Model 3 not having free supercharger available and only pay per use).

 

[Red Sage]

The idea of local city superchargers did not come until late 2014/2015 (previously Tesla policy as for long distance only and never built any stations inside the city centers).

Incorrect. Hawthorne (2012-11-19) was one of the very first Supercharger locations. It has always been among the busiest of them. And it is right in the middle of Los Angeles. Further expansions were made to establish Superchargers at other locations, Culver City (2014-12-18) Redondo Beach (2015-01-20) to offer relief. The way you write, it seems the closest Supercharger location you would have allowed to my house would have been Rancho Cucamonga, Barstow, or Indio.

Basically just to cover that 10% of users, Tesla has to set aside twice as much money. They have to cover that somehow. Basically the city superchargers jeopardizes the continued existence of this model. For the record, I am in favor of keeping free supercharger for long distance trips open as a option for all Teslas. I am against the suggestion of creating a second class (for example Model 3 not having free supercharger available and only pay per use).

I disagree with your entire premise that any one, given group will use Superchargers so much that it entirely discounts the contributions of everyone else. Perhaps there is something to support your position, but thus far you have not illuminated it. I see no evidence whatsoever of what you claim. Ultimately, it seems that your 'solution' would be to NOT have urban Superchargers at all, and to ONLY have Superchargers on highways between population centers. That would be a major mistake. Superchargers must be located to handle both 'local' traffic as well as those who happen to be passing through in a convenient manner.

 

[Darryl]

Here is an article regarding Model 3 access to the Supercharger Network. They say it is doubtful that it will be free probably an option with cost between $1,000 - $2,000 since everyone will not need access.

Will Tesla Motors Charge Extra For Model 3 Supercharging? If So, How Much? -- The Motley Fool

 

[EinSV]

Evan Niu has written some good pieces on Tesla but I really hope he is wrong on this one. Offering a version of the Model 3 that is chained to one location will damage the brand and confuse consumers in the same way that offering a 30 kWh Model 3 with a 100 mile range would.

Allowing the general public to get comfortable with EVs as their everyday vehicle will take the modest investment of making the supercharger network part of the equation for all Teslas, which will go a long way toward taking range anxiety off the table once and for all.

 

[MassModel3]

Here is an article regarding Model 3 access to the Supercharger Network. They say it is doubtful that it will be free probably an option with cost between $1,000 - $2,000 since everyone will not need access.

Will Tesla Motors Charge Extra For Model 3 Supercharging? If So, How Much? -- The Motley Fool

Pure speculation. He says, "I fully expect that Supercharging will not be standard on the Model 3." That makes it purely conjecture. Purely based on nothing other than personal opinion. That's about as official as people in these forums speculating one way or the other.

Nothing to see here. Move along...

 

[EinSV]

One additional point: The Model 3 is very likely to outperform competitive ICE vehicles in every important way. At that point, the main argument against it will be range anxiety. If Niu is right that supercharger access will cost only $1000-$1500 per Model 3, Tesla's ability to turn the best selling point of its competitors (range anxiety) into a strong selling point for the Model 3 ("drive anywhere you want, absolutely FREE, forever!!") makes this a no-brainer IMO. Why dilute such a strong message by making it an option?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Incorrect. Hawthorne (2012-11-19) was one of the very first Supercharger locations. It has always been among the busiest of them. And it is right in the middle of Los Angeles. Further expansions were made to establish Superchargers at other locations, Culver City (2014-12-18) Redondo Beach (2015-01-20) to offer relief. The way you write, it seems the closest Supercharger location you would have allowed to my house would have been Rancho Cucamonga, Barstow, or Indio.

That station was a necessary demonstration station in their own facility (much like Fremont's), but if you look at the dates, the later stations did not come until late 2014 / early 2015, when Tesla made it official policy they would support superchargers as a solution for daily inner city charging (I am trying to dig out Elon's specific speeches where he mentioned this, but I remember them being in that time frame, as the below linked thread references). Then Tesla did an about face with the release of the supercharger letters in mid-2015, so obviously Tesla itself is thinking daily use is going to be an issue. This is not a problem I pulled out of thin air.

There is more discussion here as it relates to city superchargers:
Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

I disagree with your entire premise that any one, given group will use Superchargers so much that it entirely discounts the contributions of everyone else. Perhaps there is something to support your position, but thus far you have not illuminated it. I see no evidence whatsoever of what you claim. Ultimately, it seems that your 'solution' would be to NOT have urban Superchargers at all, and to ONLY have Superchargers on highways between population centers. That would be a major mistake. Superchargers must be located to handle both 'local' traffic as well as those who happen to be passing through in a convenient manner.

No, my solution is not to have absolutely no urban superchargers. It is difficult to plan a long distance route this way.

My solution is to have the expansion urban stations nearby be pay per use (and they won't be branded as superchargers). I'm referring to stations where Tesla 100% intended it to be used primarily by daily users (like in Hong Kong, London, Shanghai, etc where there are close to no single family homes with dedicated parking). I'm not sure if the LA stations necessarily fall into this that well (there is probably a greater mix and a large portion is still long distance travellers). For the US, probably a station right in the middle of Manhattan for example would be a good example (or for LA, right in downtown LA or West Hollywood).

The long distance supercharger ideally would be built just off the highway even if inside a city (so useful for long trips and avoid traffic).

 

[roblab]

I have always felt that the urban superchargers were for that group of owners who lived in apartments and condos, a common problem in urban settings. Where are they going to charge?? Must they drive to Rancho Cucamonga? No. There are urban Superchargers. Will the long distance traveler be at some disadvantage? No. They are not driving through LA.

Personally I avoid LA and its traffic like the plague. You who live there must have become immune. But I don't want your charger, for I am doing LONG jumps, like from Tejon to Rancho Cucamonga over the Grapevine, then north of LA and around, preferably at noon. And for people living in apartments or condos, or for those who are still in a fluid time of their lives and can't have a charger installed at "home" (when they are living with friends), semi-local chargers are a good answer.

More POWER to them.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Companies (and shareholders) generally strongly dislike long-term liabilities and especially those with a huge question about future costs such as that of electricity. They want a very considerable pad on the revenue that will cover the worst-case or close to worst-case scenario.

What are Tesla's lease obligations on locations? Tax obligations? Obligations for snow removal or other upkeep?
Costs of maintenance after the first few years of SC's being new and rarely used?
Costs for replacement if a location is redeveloped and SC must be moved/removed?
Will the exteriors fade and be required to be replaced?
Will Tesla have to upgrade to an 800v/800a system to compete?

I find it difficult to believe that $2k per car will come close to covering build costs as well as those things above with any sort of comfortable pad.

Now, Elon's stated goal is to drive adoption not necessarily make a profit so maybe he can get away with a thinner margin? But how thin? At what point does the SC obligation to owners who purchased it become company killing an albatross?

I think that they will either need to charge considerably more (or build a lot more in to the base price of the car) or implement some type of pay-as-you-go. Maybe a hybrid where there is the SC network for long-distance that only includes SC's between major cities as originally planned and a separate network (prepaid or paygo) of urban/local chargers.

 

[EinSV]

I think that they will either need to charge considerably more (or build a lot more in to the base price of the car) or implement some type of pay-as-you-go. Maybe a hybrid where there is the SC network for long-distance that only includes SC's between major cities as originally planned and a separate network (prepaid or paygo) of urban/local chargers.

I think Tesla charging an upfront or use fee for superchargers during the Model 3 launch (or any time soon) would be a mistake.

Now is the time to firmly establish EVs in the public's mind as the clearly superior option to ICE vehicles. When the Model 3 hits the market the main perceived advantage left for ICE will be due to range anxiety. Tesla can easily take that off the table by making supercharger use a given -- part of the brand -- in the same way that vehicles with a minimum range of 200 miles are now a given when you buy a Tesla.

They can build enthusiasm for the brand by turning the biggest selling point of ICE into a competitive advantage for Tesla. Somewhere in the 2020-2025 time period, once the public puts the range anxiety issue behind them and embraces EVs, Tesla can consider whether it can make enough revenue from other brands' EV customers' use of Tesla superchargers to continue offering them for free as a perk for Tesla purchasers, continue to build the cost into the price of all vehicles, or decide that a small use fee for new customers and/or less expensive models is necessary. Given the projected growth in Tesla sales after 2020, offering free supercharger access to Model 3 customers should not be that big of a deal in the long run.

Also, as was mentioned up-thread, the average sales price on M3s will far exceed $35,000 -- probably in the $45,000-$50,000 range. There should be room in that price range to absorb the cost of continuing to build out the supercharger network, with the unit costs per supercharger inevitably coming down due to economies of scale, etc.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Now is the time to firmly establish EVs in the public's mind as the clearly superior option to ICE vehicles. When the Model 3 hits the market the main perceived advantage left for ICE will be due to range anxiety. Tesla can easily take that off the table by making supercharger use a given -- part of the brand -- in the same way that vehicles with a minimum range of 200 miles are now a given when you buy a Tesla.

I'm not sure that a pay go model, at least for urban chargers, would change that. $5 to fill up for 200 miles vs $20 of gas for 200 miles? Advantage Tesla.

Or they can do a limited lifetime like maybe 1 gWh and then paygo after that?

I just think that realistically they need to tack on a lot more than $2k for unlimited supercharger. Assuming perhaps $4k, that's much easier to do on $50k than on $35k. For a lot of people that would put an entry level Model 3 out of their price range and this for something that many may only rarely or never need. Just look at how many people debate options on a $100k+ S because they don't want to spend the money.

 

[nwdiver]

I just think that realistically they need to tack on a lot more than $2k for unlimited supercharger.

Why? $2k/car is more than enough to support the network including expansion and paying for power/maintenance. Increasing that fee does nothing so solve the real issue... locals using superchargers to lower their home electric bills. I could make matters worse since there will be an internal logic to achieve an ROI.

Perhaps all SCs within ~50 miles of your home would be unavailable... if you're running a bit short you can call Tesla and ask them to enable the SC 'just this once'; Tesla doesn't even ever have to say 'no this is the 4th time this week'; The hassle alone would probably reduce 'abuse' to insignificant levels. There will always be people that find a way around the system but its unlikely there would be enough of them to cause a que.

 

[int32_t]

Hi All,

Recently Bjorn Nyland uploaded a photo from supercharger located in Bergen, Norway. All places are occupied. I wonder whether Tesla offers supercharges for free for mass produced Model 3?


What do you guys think?

Free or close to it. The point of Supercharging isn't to make money (at least not directly), it's to sell cars. Supercharging is why the Bolt will only do so well ... and that's it. Teslas are much less limited by range simply because of the Superchargers*. Tesla isn't going to make Supercharging expensive since it'll only raise the perceived barrier of entry. Perhaps to curb the number of spots full they could charge $0.50 per quarter hour spent at the Supercharger? A fill would only cost $1 then, and full cars wouldn't stick around long.

* Except in Canada, where you can't even go coast-to-coast, never mind anywhere else, on Superchargers alone, unless you live in BC. Superchargers for Saskatchewan! Superchargers for Saskatchewan! (And MB, more in AB and ON, and still more in Atlantic Canada ...)

 

[smak]

I feel like there are lot of people in my shoes where they would want to use a supercharger 4-5 times a year, and there's no way that spending $2000 for that is worth it, yet there are circumstances where you'd be totally stuck in going someplace you need to go.

Especially with the model 3 getting maybe 50-70 miles less range.

So what's the solution?

Maybe split the difference and offer unlimited supercharging for one price, and pay per supercharge at a lower price.

Or pay a lower price, and get 5 a year, and then it's a relatively cheap price per every other charge.

 

[diamond.g]

Why? $2k/car is more than enough to support the network including expansion and paying for power/maintenance. Increasing that fee does nothing so solve the real issue... locals using superchargers to lower their home electric bills. I could make matters worse since there will be an internal logic to achieve an ROI.

Perhaps all SCs within ~50 miles of your home would be unavailable... if you're running a bit short you can call Tesla and ask them to enable the SC 'just this once'; Tesla doesn't even ever have to say 'no this is the 4th time this week'; The hassle alone would probably reduce 'abuse' to insignificant levels. There will always be people that find a way around the system but its unlikely there would be enough of them to cause a que.

I would be okay with 25 mile radius. I live right in the middle of the Glenn Allen and Woodbridge SC along I95 and wouldn't be able to use either of them on the start/return of a long distance trip.

 

[3PHASE]

I'm not familiar with supercharging and the Model S. From the configuration info., it is a standard option. I recall it used to be optional. I assume you need SuperCharging capability to use the Chademo Adapter.

Do you foresee Tesla offering 2 options in regards to Fast Charging? Perhaps $500-$1000 where you can use the Chademo Adapter (or some new design) and more for SuperCharging? Currently GM charges about $750 for SAE Combo for the Spark EV. I hope you don't need SuperCharging to get possible other types of Fast Charging. What do you think?

I guess it really depends on how much this option is, if offered.

 

[qqstormus2]

I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta, GA in Live, Work, Play environment. Our building is actually attached to a garage with several supercharges down on the 2nd level of the parking deck. This would be my charging solution as often as I needed to charge. I'd prefer to pay for Supercharging included in the cost of the car rather than pay as you charge.

I'm probably in the minority of people who actually have no garage and would need supercharging as their main charging option. Maybe there are two option pay as you charge or pay $2000 upfront and charge as often as you'd like.