Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[WarpedOne]

The key isn't to discourage local usage. It is to build out the network to support the demand and in turn also drive demand.

I say FINALLY someone said it out loud.

Yes, if existing SC cannot cope with demand, add more SC.
If energy is getting too expensive, add more solar panels etc to generate own energy.

2M cars with $2k per car = $4B. That builds plenty of solar panels.
If those $4B still are not enough take some $$ from that liquidated marketing budget.
What marketing is better than "with this car you get free energy as SC stations"?

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you have people sitting in their car waiting for amparking spot.

Yes. And it simply means there is not enough SC ports. Add more.

 

[lolachampcar]

Make a water cooled cable
Push twice the power through it
Double capacity without having to install more stalls
Double convenience for SC customers

Great idea.... Wish I thought of it.


If a battery can discharge at 5C then it can charge at 2-3C without issue provided you can reject heat.

PS
Free long distance travel for life offered on the 85 Model S. No, it did not come with the 60 so, yes, it is model specific. Long distance is long distance, not the distance from your house to the local SC. Are we really going to complain that Tesla DID NOT include a bunch of small print gobeltygook on this one? Can we not be treated as reasonably intelligent adults without complaining?

 

[Panu]

I think we are a bit spoiled by supercharging. When I drove my car home from Netherlands I gave a ride to a Chinese guy to his next place to stay. He was asking about roaming costs of map loading and I told him "Tesla pays". Then I told him that Tesla will also pay all my electricity for this 3000km trip. He asked if that is for the first 3 months or so and I told him it's forever for any road trip. He couldn't stop laughing after that, it is so unbelievable.

EDIT: Of course we have paid for it in car price. But most (?) people are still paying $2000 (2600EUR in Finland) to get 11kW more charging power in same cases (dual chargers). The question is how much would you pay for just the ability to supercharge if you would have to pay per charge after that like with twin chargers?

 

[Chickenlittle]

instead of defining rules and pissing people off a better solution would be to increase cost of car by whatever amount that people are over utilizing. Most likely additional cost of 25 to fifty dollars spread over all purchasers would not even be noticed and cover the cost

 

[bonnie]

instead of defining rules and pissing people off a better solution would be to increase cost of car by whatever amount that people are over utilizing. Most likely additional cost of 25 to fifty dollars spread over all purchasers would not even be noticed and cover the cost

The only place rules are coming from is this forum (and consequently getting others worked up over 'that's not in my contract!!!'). Elon simply mentioned they'd send a note to a few people who are abusing it. He didn't say they'd be stopped or penalized in any way. A conversation, if you will. What people did to resolve problems before lawyers and rules and whatnot.

And by the way he half-chuckled when he mentioned the abuse, I can only assume it's a pretty unbelievable use case. He also didn't say anything about the costs or charging people or anything else. His simple message has turned into hundreds of posts, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with what was said.

 

[schonelucht]

Current supercharger consumption is 2-3GWh / month or less than $500k/month. It's just not material. The issue is availability of free stalls. There are superchargers with daily waiting queues several cars deep, totally defeating the idea of what supercharging is all about (a predictable, always available, no hassle, fast in&out charge that doesn't add time to your trip beyond what a small lunch break would be)

Yes, the right answer for Tesla is to add more superchargers. But that's easier said than done, because the up front investment costs (of which Tesla already has way too much) are in fact material. And that's even without taking into account that finding a site, getting a sufficiently large feed and overcoming possible regulations can take a long time. In the meantime waiting for more stalls, Tesla has no choice but to try to limit demand for SC at those hot spots. One way is to encourage local users to home charge instead.

 

[WarpedOne]

One way is to encourage local users to home charge instead.

Assuming local user are even amongst those waiting in any meaningful numbers. My guess would be they are not.
Local users are not far (measured in time) from other charging options and would rather go somewhere else, or come back later or ...
I bet those waiting are long distance travelers so this discussion about locals abusers is totally off base.

Add more charging capacity is the right way to go and is the one already publicly announced one.

 

[Owner]

I think this question is a fascinating one on so many levels:

1. Elon said something a bit mysterious and confusing
2. Ethical questions of driver's behaviors good / bad
3. Tesla's behavior good / bad and holding them to their word
4. Future: what will happen with X, gen 3, above 120V charging and V2G
5. Privacy issues: how do they track us
6. Marketing and communication issues - how clear does on need to be
7. Physical issues - can we theoretically build enough superchargers for everyone
8. Personal freedom issues - Classic American style "I can do it if I can - no one can stop me"

I also think its interesting enough that we are getting posts from people who are not interested in this subject and want to post that they aren't! But it is like a good soap opera (well bad analogy as I don't think there are any good soap operas)

Is this an "important question" which perhaps the doubters don't think it is. Could be for a few apartment dwellers but they aren't posting really. It could be an important issue down the line for someone but not likely Model S drivers.

 

[deonb]

If energy is getting too expensive, add more solar panels etc to generate own energy.
.

Solar Panels cannot nearly provide enough power for local customers to charge. They can barely do road trip customers.

If you go back to the very original SuperCharger launch conf call (or the threads on here discussing it), Elon was stating that the SuperChargers are expected to be mostly empty during the week, and used on the weekend, which is when most road trips take place. So the Solar Panels will be able to generate power during the week and gets stored (grid or battery), and then dispensed out over the weekend.

If you do the calculations yourself you'll see that they can barely handle that, and only if they're not saturated all weekend. There simly isn't enough space above the SuperChargers to add enough Solar Panels to handle any more than that.

If you however throw local chargers in (be it apartment dwellers or TCO reducers), who would be using the SuperChargers in the week, the Solar panel math goes completely out the window.

The whole SuperCharger/Solar Panel/Prepaid symbiosis only work out if SuperChargers are only used for the 2000 mile avg. road trip usage/vehicle/year. Any more than that and the power needs to come from the grid. Feel free to redo the math yourself.

 

[Owner]

I agree with you as I've kind of done the math on my own home.

I would simply say a canopy above a stall could perhaps on a yearly average fully charge maybe one Model S 85 every day a year. So say over the course of a week in road trip locations, a stall is charging say 20 cars that week. But the panels likely produce enough juice per week (ignoring the huge seasonal variation) enough for say max 10 cars / week. So even Barstow and Tejon with their panels are probably net energy users per year.

I did this "math" on top of my head. But I do agree with doenb. Canopies are not enough to make any busy site renewable.

Solar Panels cannot nearly provide enough power for local customers to charge. They can barely do road trip customers.

If you go back to the very original SuperCharger launch conf call (or the threads on here discussing it), Elon was stating that the SuperChargers are expected to be mostly empty during the week, and used on the weekend, which is when most road trips take place. So the Solar Panels will be able to generate power during the week and gets stored (grid or battery), and then dispensed out over the weekend.

If you do the calculations yourself you'll see that they can barely handle that, and only if they're not saturated all weekend. There simly isn't enough space above the SuperChargers to add enough Solar Panels to handle any more than that.

If you however throw local chargers in (be it apartment dwellers or TCO reducers), who would be using the SuperChargers in the week, the Solar panel math goes completely out the window.

The whole SuperCharger/Solar Panel/Prepaid symbiosis only work out if SuperChargers are only used for the 2000 mile avg. road trip usage/vehicle/year. Any more than that and the power needs to come from the grid. Feel free to redo the math yourself.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Solar Panels cannot nearly provide enough power for local customers to charge. They can barely do road trip customers.

If you go back to the very original SuperCharger launch conf call (or the threads on here discussing it), Elon was stating that the SuperChargers are expected to be mostly empty during the week, and used on the weekend, which is when most road trips take place. So the Solar Panels will be able to generate power during the week and gets stored (grid or battery), and then dispensed out over the weekend.

If you do the calculations yourself you'll see that they can barely handle that, and only if they're not saturated all weekend. There simly isn't enough space above the SuperChargers to add enough Solar Panels to handle any more than that.

If you however throw local chargers in (be it apartment dwellers or TCO reducers), who would be using the SuperChargers in the week, the Solar panel math goes completely out the window.

The whole SuperCharger/Solar Panel/Prepaid symbiosis only work out if SuperChargers are only used for the 2000 mile avg. road trip usage/vehicle/year. Any more than that and the power needs to come from the grid. Feel free to redo the math yourself.

Maybe Tesla will invest in community solar gardens where they aren't able to install solar panels directly at the SuperCharger site or where the number of panels wouldn't be able to meet the energy demands of the SuperCharger. Solar gardens have almost all of the same benefits of solar panels installed on the chargers except they don't directly power the chargers. They would feed the grid and then that would effectively cancel out the energy the SuperChargers take from the grid. I've been looking in to community solar gardens and they're a great idea, especially where you have obstacles or neighbors which might block your solar access.

 

[Saghost]

It's not about "Free and Unlimited". It's about a company that appears to be going back on an established policy. When the iPhone came out, AT&T had no tiered data plan. Your data plan was "Unlimited" A year later, when they realized that the popular iPhone was pushing their infrastructure hard, they started to throttle high bandwidth users. Was this cool? No. Users who watched Netflix, Hulu and other bandwidth intensive apps were suddenly discriminated against because they chose to use the plan as intended. But the silver lining was that it forced AT&T (and Verizon) to expand and improve their network. They saw a need for larger and faster networks to meet the obvious demand. Jump to 7 years later and most people are using more bandwidth now but at a lower cost than back then. The key isn't to discourage local usage. It is to build out the network to support the demand and in turn also drive demand.

So based on this example, we should all charge only at Superchargers so Tesla sees the need for a bogey network and expands the network so that the can major more money off of it and soon Tesla will be selling you your Supercharger part for less money because of their bigger, more modern network?

How do you get cheaper than free?

The Phone analogy only works if Tesla is making a profit off of the network and charging to use it.
Walter

 

[Tedkidd]

Current supercharger consumption is 2-3GWh / month or less than $500k/month. It's just not material. The issue is availability of free stalls. There are superchargers with daily waiting queues several cars deep, totally defeating the idea of what supercharging is all about (a predictable, always available, no hassle, fast in&out charge that doesn't add time to your trip beyond what a small lunch break would be)

Yes, the right answer for Tesla is to add more superchargers. But that's easier said than done, because the up front investment costs (of which Tesla already has way too much) are in fact material. And that's even without taking into account that finding a site, getting a sufficiently large feed and overcoming possible regulations can take a long time. In the meantime waiting for more stalls, Tesla has no choice but to try to limit demand for SC at those hot spots. One way is to encourage local users to home charge instead.

^^^^^^^^^ Nicely put. This seems to me a growing pains issue that might be exacerbated by folks not charging at home, then going to SC chasing "free" without doing the math.

For most its likely a Gee whiz phase, then they figure out its more trouble than it's worth. But part of the solution to avoiding problems is to call attention to them.

 

[scaesare]

Time for a poll!

 

[schonelucht]

Assuming local user are even amongst those waiting in any meaningful numbers. My guess would be they are not.
....
I bet those waiting are long distance travelers so this discussion about locals abusers is totally off base.

For the supercharger that I know suffers from this issue, queues are 100% due to local taxis en route to Schiphol airport 10 minutes away. There is even a private Tesla branded fast-charger (note, not supercharger) at the airport and the taxis still make the trip to juice up at the SC.

 

[Owner]

How long do people typically have to wait?
Is there any more space to expand?

For the supercharger that I know suffers from this issue, queues are 100% due to local taxis en route to Schiphol airport 10 minutes away. There is even a private Tesla branded fast-charger (note, not supercharger) at the airport and the taxis still make the trip to juice up at the SC.

 

[Archer]

So based on this example, we should all charge only at Superchargers so Tesla sees the need for a bogey network and expands the network so that the can major more money off of it and soon Tesla will be selling you your Supercharger part for less money because of their bigger, more modern network?

How do you get cheaper than free?

The Phone analogy only works if Tesla is making a profit off of the network and charging to use it.
Walter

SC usage is not free, it is prepaid. It is similar to buying a gym membership. You are paying for access and unlimited usage. Limiting local drivers in any way is like the gym suddenly saying you can't use the treadmill 7 times a week because they thought that most people would only use it 2-3 times a week. There are plenty of treadmills available so it doesn't really get in the way of other people, but the gym is now paying for more energy from treadmill usage and they don't like it.

 

[scaesare]

SC usage is not free, it is prepaid. It is similar to buying a gym membership. You are paying for access and unlimited usage. Limiting local drivers in any way is like the gym suddenly saying you can't use the treadmill 7 times a week because they thought that most people would only use it 2-3 times a week. There are plenty of treadmills available so it doesn't really get in the way of other people, but the gym is now paying for more energy from treadmill usage and they don't like it.

Technically untrue... any fee was to enable supercharging on the car, not to pay for for the costs/electricity of charging.

 

[bonnie]

SC usage is not free, it is prepaid. It is similar to buying a gym membership. You are paying for access and unlimited usage. Limiting local drivers in any way is like the gym suddenly saying you can't use the treadmill 7 times a week because they thought that most people would only use it 2-3 times a week. There are plenty of treadmills available so it doesn't really get in the way of other people, but the gym is now paying for more energy from treadmill usage and they don't like it.

It's not about the increased treadmill use. It's about the folks trying to save a few bucks and using the gym facilities daily to shower, using the shampoo, deodorant and such on the counter for members use, and then plugging in their laptop in the lounge area, using the free wifi and conducting biz calls on their cell phone - all to save a few bucks at home. No towels to launder, no shampoo to purchase, no monthly wifi payment. A few people doing this, no big deal. But if the gym lets it continue, then more and more could do that and it isn't sustainable.

The gym said that there never be a wait for a shower or that the lounge area would have empty chairs. You looked at the gym originally and decided it was adequate for your use. Why should the gym do anything more for you? The people coming in and showering there daily to save a few dollars, using the gym towels, etc. ... all within the rights of their membership.

The gym is fully meeting their obligation by doing nothing. Tesla can choose to never add another supercharger location or stall. Is this scenario okay with you?

 

[Archer]

There's a big difference between Internet and charging. If there's a lot of Internet traffic, stuff slows down, and then streaming software lowers quality to maintain the stream, lowering data demands. Can't do that with charging. Providers can also cache to reduce data transmission (less so with cell). Right now the big push is shifting usage to wifi, advertized as convenience but really saving money and cellular bandwidth. Can't do that with charging. With charging, contention becomes like having HD streaming software that can't adapt, making it unwatchable at busy periods, which reduces the appeal of the software.

Also, understand the physical issue: more cell use, more equipment on a tower; more charger use, more equipment on the ground, more parking spaces.

If people are like me, they'd need to use a Supercharger maybe 10 times a year at most, and that's only in years with longer trips. Now consider a person who uses a Supercharger every day: that makes them equivalent to at least 36 mes, and they'll charge at peak times.

Charger use is not like cell use. Contention has huge negative effects because you don't degrade quality, you have people sitting in their car waiting for amparking spot.

Sorry, but your understanding of internet traffic is incomplete. High bandwidth alone does not slow "stuff" down. Just look up data throttling and you'll see plenty of articles that rightfully point out that cellular networks' justification for throttling was a lie. The FCC even sued AT&T last year for it.

Let's be clear here, local charging negatively affecting other people is not the big issue people are claiming. Have you personally experienced this? Or are you taking anecdotes from other forum posters who talk about a few incidents at like the SJC charger and extrapolating it across the network? On the TM Forum there was a driver who anticipated that he would have a nightmare experience at SJC but when he go there, he had no issue at all. When I visited the location a few months ago for the first time, it was only half full and far from the "stories" a few people of posted about. And this was at supposedly peak times.

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It's not about the increased treadmill use. It's about the folks trying to save a few bucks and using the gym facilities daily to shower, using the shampoo, deodorant and such on the counter for members use, and then plugging in their laptop in the lounge area, using the free wifi and conducting biz calls on their cell phone - all to save a few bucks at home. No towels to launder, no shampoo to purchase, no monthly wifi payment. A few people doing this, no big deal. But if the gym lets it continue, then more and more could do that and it isn't sustainable.

The gym said that there never be a wait for a shower or that the lounge area would have empty chairs. You looked at the gym originally and decided it was adequate for your use. Why should the gym do anything more for you? The people coming in and showering there daily to save a few dollars, using the gym towels, etc. ... all within the rights of their membership.

The gym is fully meeting their obligation by doing nothing. Tesla can choose to never add another supercharger location or stall. Is this scenario okay with you?

I find it funny that using a SC is nothing more than plugging in your car and charging up the battery but when people use analogy to justify their objection to this simple act and purpose, it is exponentially more than a simple act. A local charging up their car must be equivalent to all of those "abuses" you listed above.